How do you deal with clients who are vague and rude?

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James Bond

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2005
6,023
0
0
I went through the EXACT same thing.

Several friends and I volunteered for a charitable organization which was created in memory of a friend. The organization itself has done quite well, and they had been looking for ways to expand the reach.

One idea came up and it involved several of us. Roles went anywhere from project planning, to account management, to web design, etc. It was quite involved. The problem was that there were no definitive guidelines. They had a very basic idea and told us to run with it.

Of course after about 2 weeks of work (at least 1hr per night from me alone), we show them what we considered to be a decent first draft. Once we show this to the board, several of them hate it, several aren't sure what they want, etc.

This went on for weeks. They would point out something they didn't like, so we would change it, only to find out that they didn't like ANYTHING we did.

I finally told them that without a real goal or a definitive project plan, the job just wouldn't be possible. I ended up dropping off the project personally due to frustration.

I feel bad now because it really is a good cause, and the few that continue to help are doing only a minor piece of what the original idea was, but that's the way it goes sometimes I guess.
 

xalos

Senior member
May 31, 2002
292
0
71
Originally posted by: swbsam
Originally posted by: xalos
Originally posted by: swbsam
Originally posted by: xalos
I can see nefarious depending on how edgy it was. I'd have to see the design in question.

But, realistically with real clients you would ask what they wanted. Make a few mock ups in photoshop and get their approval and then create. Don't do any hard work until you have your retainer.

Well, here are some that I have on me:

http://www.sundarama.com/mocksihi.jpg

Original site : http://www.ihi-therapycenter.org/

mockup of new site: http://sundarama.com/ihi7/Site_2/Welcome.html

They wanted "clean, younger, no-rainbows" at our first meeting, so we went that direction

I don't see nefarious but I do see shocking. But, I think I attribute that picture being similar to John Coplans' photography. Haha.. That's what you should have done. Put this pic as the main picture (Picture linked might be NSFW depending on where you work)

That can be your avante garde!

I personally love dark/edgy photography and wil google John Coplan as soon as I get home - thanks

but, yes, point taken - use safer, cleaner images for placement, not hairy male arms..

John Coplans started to photograph his body when he was in his mid to late 60s iirc. Its interesting work but its hard to get pass him being a hairy naked old guy. He photographed his body in different poses for almost 20 years.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,676
7,900
126
I'm not consumer centric, and I certainly won't do tricks without pay. If they can't get their shit together, tell them to find someone who'll deal with their disorganization. Life's too short to deal with idiots. It's bad enough doing it for money; for free? yea right....
 

swbsam

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2007
2,122
0
0
Originally posted by: James Bond
I went through the EXACT same thing.

Several friends and I volunteered for a charitable organization which was created in memory of a friend. The organization itself has done quite well, and they had been looking for ways to expand the reach.

One idea came up and it involved several of us. Roles went anywhere from project planning, to account management, to web design, etc. It was quite involved. The problem was that there were no definitive guidelines. They had a very basic idea and told us to run with it.

Of course after about 2 weeks of work (at least 1hr per night from me alone), we show them what we considered to be a decent first draft. Once we show this to the board, several of them hate it, several aren't sure what they want, etc.

This went on for weeks. They would point out something they didn't like, so we would change it, only to find out that they didn't like ANYTHING we did.

I finally told them that without a real goal or a definitive project plan, the job just wouldn't be possible. I ended up dropping off the project personally due to frustration.

I feel bad now because it really is a good cause, and the few that continue to help are doing only a minor piece of what the original idea was, but that's the way it goes sometimes I guess.

I think my lesson going forward is to have a less casual, more interview /q&a first consultation, and to have one point person vs. 3... We'd do the same as well, instead of my wife and I contacting them it should just be one (I thought it would be better if I contacted them on tech issues and for her to contact them for design issues, but obviously there's overlap and they have no idea what I'm talking about).

Frustrating because the first thing I asked them is whether this is a static site of if I should make it so that it would be easy for them to edit things (I'd install joomla or drupal and show them how to edit pages). They assured me that they'd never make any changes, and that a CMS wouldn't be necessary.. So, get this - I got a dozen site revisions, from typos to their existing page to hours of operations, etc. changes, on a site that's not even up! From "we'll never have changes" to changes every few days.. BAH!
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,815
2
81
Originally posted by: swbsam
Originally posted by: xalos
I can see nefarious depending on how edgy it was. I'd have to see the design in question.

But, realistically with real clients you would ask what they wanted. Make a few mock ups in photoshop and get their approval and then create. Don't do any hard work until you have your retainer.

Well, here are some that I have on me:

http://www.sundarama.com/mocksihi.jpg

Original site : http://www.ihi-therapycenter.org/

mockup of new site: http://sundarama.com/ihi7/Site_2/Welcome.html

They wanted "clean, younger, no-rainbows" at our first meeting, so we went that direction

I see rainbows... but maybe that is just my dirty mind...

Hint: look at the new IHI logo.
 

swbsam

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2007
2,122
0
0
Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
Originally posted by: swbsam
Originally posted by: xalos
I can see nefarious depending on how edgy it was. I'd have to see the design in question.

But, realistically with real clients you would ask what they wanted. Make a few mock ups in photoshop and get their approval and then create. Don't do any hard work until you have your retainer.

Well, here are some that I have on me:

http://www.sundarama.com/mocksihi.jpg

Original site : http://www.ihi-therapycenter.org/

mockup of new site: http://sundarama.com/ihi7/Site_2/Welcome.html

They wanted "clean, younger, no-rainbows" at our first meeting, so we went that direction

I see rainbows... but maybe that is just my dirty mind...

Hint: look at the new IHI logo.

yes, yes, we know that one of the logos looks like guys doing it (the one used on the mockup for the site).. it wasn't an accident
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,815
2
81
Originally posted by: swbsam

yes, yes, we know that one of the logos looks like guys doing it (the one used on the mockup for the site).. it wasn't an accident



Has it to do with this -
We welcome everyone without prejudice in regard to cultural, sexual or gender orientation.

Is it ihi or IHi make up your mind!!!

God that old website is awful...

I'm not looking at it any more :|
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,511
1
81
Originally posted by: swbsam
Originally posted by: orakle
These aren't clients. Clients pay money. Fuck 'em.

That's why i told them to politely work with a different designer.

But, when we do start working for hire, how do you deal with clients who have no idea what they want?

I put an end to this because I could see this going on for months, them being catty instead of giving constructive criticism, but how do you get that constructive criticism out of them?

Once they are paying, make it abundantly clear that they are paying for your time. They can keep changing their minds, but it's going to cost them more as you have to start the process all over again.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Originally posted by: swbsam
Originally posted by: orakle
These aren't clients. Clients pay money. Fuck 'em.

That's why i told them to politely work with a different designer.

But, when we do start working for hire, how do you deal with clients who have no idea what they want?

I put an end to this because I could see this going on for months, them being catty instead of giving constructive criticism, but how do you get that constructive criticism out of them?
Ask lots of specific questions. Have plenty of examples ready. "Do you mean like this, or like this?"
Be ready to do lots of work that will never be used. Save that work to use as examples later.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
....they think your designs are....evil? Are they a church and you accidentally put satanic symbols on their website?
 

BKLounger

Golden Member
Mar 29, 2006
1,098
0
0
NPO's can be a tough breed to work with. From my experience they usually never know what they want and have difficulty with making set decisions. Plus you need to hear input from everyone. From the secretary to the head of the organization.

Also people feel like when things are being done for free they can do whatever they want and feel that your work has no value if you are doing it for free. I can guarentee if you started charging them by the hour they would have made up their minds on what they liked and didn't like real quick.
 

hanoverphist

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2006
9,928
23
76
Originally posted by: FetusCakeMix
At some point, you just have to suggest they take their request elsewhere. Seems like the client doesn't even know what they want.

Could also suggest they find some logos with a style or theme they like.

this. ive mocked up a series of themes for customers before, and when they picked apart each one ill ask them to look around, find some that they seem to prefer and we will "brainstorm" some ideas to try. at the point of presenting, that is the most time i want to put into a black hole job. let them do some work to figure out what they want next.
 

Appledrop

Platinum Member
Aug 25, 2004
2,340
0
0
honestly, their original site is a lot better than your mockup
original=colorful but not overly so, fast, easy to navigate, fairly dated looking but not nearly as bad as some I've seen.
mockup=huge image (slow), tons of wasted space, bland/dull, over large text, etcetc...and really just looks like a wordpress blog or something.
 

eldorado99

Lifer
Feb 16, 2004
36,324
3,163
126
You should have told them to try a different designer, then recommended the groups "Webster" or "Funk and Wagnalls" because you heard they do great work.
 

RichUK

Lifer
Feb 14, 2005
10,334
677
126
Originally posted by: swbsam
Originally posted by: orakle
These aren't clients. Clients pay money. Fuck 'em.

That's why i told them to politely work with a different designer.

But, when we do start working for hire, how do you deal with clients who have no idea what they want?

I put an end to this because I could see this going on for months, them being catty instead of giving constructive criticism, but how do you get that constructive criticism out of them?

Next time, when working with money?

Apply a methodology to your work/project, and then phase the work.

Gather some requirements, have them sign off to the requirements and then deliver to the requirements? If they want to make changes to the original scope, negotiate new budget requirements and new timelines.

Employ some sort of controls/milestones/gateways to your phased work.

Ensure you and the client agree to and understand the business case.

Maintain a close relationship with the client/customer.
 

hanoverphist

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2006
9,928
23
76
Originally posted by: xalos

I don't see nefarious but I do see shocking. But, I think I attribute that picture being similar to John Coplans' photography. Haha.. That's what you should have done. Put this pic as the main picture (Picture linked might be NSFW depending on where you work)

That can be your avante garde!

more like NSFE (eyes)
 

ivan2

Diamond Member
Mar 6, 2000
5,808
0
0
www.heatware.com
their website doesn't look like 1992's website. if they did designed it in 1992, obviously their standard is way higher than what you had in mind.

the severed hand in the first page was a bit shocking, obviously isn't the kind of warmth they are looking for.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,428
11,755
136
Why are you working free for the lesbian and gay group? They haz moneys...lots and lots of moneys.

Everyone knows this.


 
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