How do you make sure that the rich stay rich?

ButterflyHugs

Member
Sep 20, 2005
44
0
0
You fire the IRS lawyers that would audit them when they are suspected of filing phoney returns!!

In all seriousness, why do we even have the facade of the rich paying "their fair share" anymore? This administration and Republican congress are doing everything within their power to ensure that the richest Americans will end up paying the lowest percentage of their income (total and not just wages) while the middle and lower classes foot the bill.

Source

The federal government is moving to eliminate the jobs of nearly half the lawyers at the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) who audit tax returns of some of the wealthiest Americans, specifically those subject to gift and estate taxes when they transfer parts of their fortunes to their children and others.

The administration plans to cut the jobs of 157 of the agency's 345 estate-tax lawyers, plus 17 support personnel, within 70 days. Kevin Brown, an IRS deputy commissioner, confirmed the cuts.

The Bush administration has successfully lobbied Congress to enact measures that reduce the number of Americans subject to the estate tax ? which opponents refer to as the "death tax" ? but has failed to eliminate the tax.

Brown said in a telephone interview Friday that he had ordered the cuts because far fewer people were obliged to pay estate taxes under President Bush's legislation.

But six IRS estate-tax lawyers whose jobs are likely to be eliminated said the cuts were the latest moves at the IRS to shield people with political connections and complex tax-avoidance devices from thorough audits.

Sharyn Phillips, a veteran IRS estate-tax lawyer in Manhattan, called the cuts a "back-door way for the Bush administration to achieve what it cannot get from Congress, which is repeal of the estate tax."


Brown dismissed as preposterous any suggestion that the IRS was soft on rich tax cheats. He said the money saved by eliminating the estate-tax lawyers would be used to hire revenue agents to audit income-tax returns, especially those from people making more than $1 million.

Brown said civil-service rules barred estate-tax lawyers from moving over to audit income taxes. An IRS spokesman said the agency had asked for permission to allow such transfers twice, but the Office of Personnel Management had not responded.

Estate-tax lawyers are the most productive tax-law enforcement personnel at the IRS, Brown said. For each hour they work, they find an average of $2,200 of taxes owed to the government.

Brown said that analysis showed the IRS was auditing enough returns to catch cheats and that 10 percent of the estate audits brought in 80 percent of the additional taxes. He said auditing a greater percentage of gift- and estate-tax returns would not be worthwhile.

That is a change from six years ago, when the IRS said 85 percent of large taxable gifts it audited shortchanged the government. The IRS said then that it would hire three more lawyers just to audit taxable gifts of $1 million or more.

In the past five years, officials at the IRS and the Treasury have told Congress that cheating among the highest-income Americans is a major and growing problem.

The six IRS tax lawyers, some of whom were willing to be named, said that clear evidence of fraud was pursued vigorously by the agency but that when audits showed the use of complicated schemes to understate the value of assets, the IRS had become increasingly reluctant to pursue cases.

The lawyers said the risk-analysis system the IRS used to evaluate whether to pursue such cases gave higher-level officials cover to not pursue tax cheats and emboldened the most aggressive tax advisers to prepare gift- and estate-tax returns that shortchanged the government.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
345 people + management to audit how many estates a year?
Who said govt wasnt bloated?

Think the guy has a point, replacing these high priced lawyers with agents to audit incomes taxes of people making > 1 million will generate more revenue. My guess is the incomes of > 1 million isnt considered "free" like the estate tax is.


 

ButterflyHugs

Member
Sep 20, 2005
44
0
0
Are you actually believing that they money saved from lawyer salaries will then be used to hire on more auditing staff to perform the same exact job of the people that they fired in the first place?

Let me ask you, are you looking to buy any oceanfront property? I have some beautiful ocean-front lots in Nebraska just waiting for the right developer and you sound like just the right sucker.....er.....person for it.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
There is a book about this called "Perfectly Legal". The middle class is getting screwed while the rich are getting the breaks. IRS managers who give accounting company clients a break later get jobs at those accounting companies in return. That's why IRS ignores obvious high dollar tax cheats and goes after the little guy instead. Of course the useful idiots on the right have no problem with it.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: ButterflyHugs
Are you actually believing that they money saved from lawyer salaries will then be used to hire on more auditing staff to perform the same exact job of the people that they fired in the first place?

Let me ask you, are you looking to buy any oceanfront property? I have some beautiful ocean-front lots in Nebraska just waiting for the right developer and you sound like just the right sucker.....er.....person for it.

No, I expect they will do what they claim the agents will do, audit income taxes of people making more than 1 million dollars.

Brown dismissed as preposterous any suggestion that the IRS was soft on rich tax cheats. He said the money saved by eliminating the estate-tax lawyers would be used to hire revenue agents to audit income-tax returns, especially those from people making more than $1 million.

Did you even read your own article?
 

spelletrader

Senior member
May 4, 2004
583
0
0
So the people that are potentially losing their jobs are saying what a bad idea it is? Where is a fark.com "Obvious" tag when you need one?
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Kind of funny actually thanks to your "progressive" taxation the rich get dumped on. That is why we need fair flat taxation.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
I'm sorry, but you'll never convince me that reducing the number of IRS LAWYERS isn't a good thing...
 

ButterflyHugs

Member
Sep 20, 2005
44
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ButterflyHugs
Are you actually believing that they money saved from lawyer salaries will then be used to hire on more auditing staff to perform the same exact job of the people that they fired in the first place?

Let me ask you, are you looking to buy any oceanfront property? I have some beautiful ocean-front lots in Nebraska just waiting for the right developer and you sound like just the right sucker.....er.....person for it.

No, I expect they will do what they claim the agents will do, audit income taxes of people making more than 1 million dollars.

Brown dismissed as preposterous any suggestion that the IRS was soft on rich tax cheats. He said the money saved by eliminating the estate-tax lawyers would be used to hire revenue agents to audit income-tax returns, especially those from people making more than $1 million.

Did you even read your own article?

Once again, do you really beleive that they are going to fire lawyers whose job is to audit the returns of those making over $1 million and take that money and hire and train auditors to audit the returns of those making over $1 million?

The federal government is moving to eliminate the jobs of nearly half the lawyers at the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) who audit tax returns of some of the wealthiest Americans, specifically those subject to gift and estate taxes when they transfer parts of their fortunes to their children and others.

........

Brown dismissed as preposterous any suggestion that the IRS was soft on rich tax cheats. He said the money saved by eliminating the estate-tax lawyers would be used to hire revenue agents to audit income-tax returns, especially those from people making more than $1 million.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Once again, do you really beleive that they are going to fire lawyers whose job is to audit the returns of those making over $1 million and take that money and hire and train auditors to audit the returns of those making over $1 million?

I think you arent understanding the article you posted.

These lawyers go over estate's to clarify the correct amount of money is being swindled from the estate of the former owner.

They dont go over income tax returns as noted later in your article

Brown said civil-service rules barred estate-tax lawyers from moving over to audit income taxes. An IRS spokesman said the agency had asked for permission to allow such transfers twice, but the Office of Personnel Management had not responded.

So they fire a bunch of estate tax lawyers and use that money to hire IRS agents who's job it is to audit income tax returns, especially in the > 1 million range.

I think he has a good point, having high priced lawyers chasing through the estate of the few who are subject to the tax > 1.5 million per dependent is a waste of resources. Hire lower paid agents and collect on income taxes > 1 million, who are subject to the full brunt of our tax system.

 

spelletrader

Senior member
May 4, 2004
583
0
0
Listen, 157 Estate Tax Lawyers and 17 support personnel are losing their jobs within the next 70 days. Some of them (6 referenced by the article) are going to complain about it. Obviously they want to make like losing their jobs is going to allow everyone that earns over $1 million is now going to get away with any tax crime they want.

It is more likely that the department was bloated and in need of a trim. And it goes like this:

1) Auditors replace the lawyers.
2) The IRS saves money.
3) We are all still taxed the same.
4) ???
5) Profit!

Oh, I think underpants goes in there somewhere....
 

spelletrader

Senior member
May 4, 2004
583
0
0
Originally posted by: ButterflyHugs
Where do you think that the majority of money is being hidden from taxation, estates or income?

The majority of tax evasion occurs through off-shore accounts on income that is not reported.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Genx87
These lawyers go over estate's to clarify the correct amount of money is being swindled from the estate of the former owner.

Oh please. What a load of sh!t.

There's a whole lot of "swindling" going on and it has nothing to do with former rich owners and you are part of the swindle.

God I hope America is somehow able to do something with these America haters including all the posters in here that support such hate for the Country.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: ButterflyHugs
Where do you think that the majority of money is being hidden from taxation, estates or income?

Income by far, Estate only accounts for ~ 1% of our federal income revenue stream. And is a very small % of deaths. I think under 1% of estates being passed through death are subject to the estate tax.

Incomes taxes are huge, in the mid 1990s a Clinton advisor noted an upturn in the economy produced more federal revenue in a single year than the estate tax has through its entire lifetime.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Genx87
These lawyers go over estate's to clarify the correct amount of money is being swindled from the estate of the former owner.

Oh please. What a load of sh!t.

There's a whole lot of "swindling" going on and it has nothing to do with former rich owners and you are part of the swindle.

God I hope America is somehow able to do something with these America haters including all the posters in here that support such hate for the Country.

America is not a bastion of communism like you wished it were. Remember, we spent 50 years fighting that in a cold war and won. Reason for winning were our system is better big time for the individual and collective.



 

starwars7

Senior member
Dec 30, 2005
663
0
0
I like this part of the article:

"Estate-tax lawyers are the most productive tax-law enforcement personnel at the IRS, Brown said. For each hour they work, they find an average of $2,200 of taxes owed to the government."

Why are we getting rid of them?

Seriously, the estate tax only effects people that are passing millions of $ on to their kids. Which mean's its like only the top 5% of of Americans, these jackasses don't need to swindel their cash and cut corners. And if they do, I'd hope we'd have some nice estate lawyers to catch them.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: starwars7
I like this part of the article:

"Estate-tax lawyers are the most productive tax-law enforcement personnel at the IRS, Brown said. For each hour they work, they find an average of $2,200 of taxes owed to the government."

Why are we getting rid of them?

Seriously, the estate tax only effects people that are passing millions of $ on to their kids. Which mean's its like only the top 5% of of Americans, these jackasses don't need to swindel their cash and cut corners. And if they do, I'd hope we'd have some nice estate lawyers to catch them.


There will still be 188 of them, dont worry.
 

starwars7

Senior member
Dec 30, 2005
663
0
0
LOL, if they currently find $2,200 of owed taxes per hour, there is no reason to get rid of them!!

That means that each lawyer finds about $4,928,000 in owed taxes per year!! That's a lot of cash.
 

wetech

Senior member
Jul 16, 2002
871
6
81
I think the topic here is a bit misleading. You're not talking about making sure the rich stay rich... they're dead. We're talking about being able to pass on to your kids / spouse etc. your life savings.

Personally, I think the estate tax is a load of BS. Just because some people are able to save more doesn't mean they should lose the right to pass it on to their decendants. The government has already taken their share of what you've made while you were living. The estate tax is just the government's way of saying, "give us more." Seriously, because you die, the government gets to take 45% of what you own (it's recently down from 55%)??? It's double taxation of income.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: wetech
I think the topic here is a bit misleading. You're not talking about making sure the rich stay rich... they're dead. We're talking about being able to pass on to your kids / spouse etc. your life savings.

Personally, I think the estate tax is a load of BS. Just because some people are able to save more doesn't mean they should lose the right to pass it on to their decendants. The government has already taken their share of what you've made while you were living. The estate tax is just the government's way of saying, "give us more." Seriously, because you die, the government gets to take 45% of what you own (it's recently down from 55%)??? It's double taxation of income.

Shouldn't their descendants have to make it on their own? Should we allow them to just be leeches?
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
I'm sorry, but you'll never convince me that reducing the number of IRS LAWYERS isn't a good thing...

are you trying to argue that people cheating on their taxes is a good thing?
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: wetech
I think the topic here is a bit misleading. You're not talking about making sure the rich stay rich... they're dead. We're talking about being able to pass on to your kids / spouse etc. your life savings.

Personally, I think the estate tax is a load of BS. Just because some people are able to save more doesn't mean they should lose the right to pass it on to their decendants. The government has already taken their share of what you've made while you were living. The estate tax is just the government's way of saying, "give us more." Seriously, because you die, the government gets to take 45% of what you own (it's recently down from 55%)??? It's double taxation of income.

noone gets taxed at 55%

since you are clearly unaware, the estate tax was created for 2 purposes. 1) to collect capital gains that had not been paid in the deceased indivudual lifetime. 2) to prevent large fortunes for being passed on a creating a permanent upper class.
 

BlancoNino

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 2005
5,695
0
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Kind of funny actually thanks to your "progressive" taxation the rich get dumped on. That is why we need fair flat taxation.

FTW. We could get rid of all those stupid fat IRS jobs, greedy lawyers would be out of work, and everyone will be more willing to pay their taxes. Plus no more confusion.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: wetech
I think the topic here is a bit misleading. You're not talking about making sure the rich stay rich... they're dead. We're talking about being able to pass on to your kids / spouse etc. your life savings.

Personally, I think the estate tax is a load of BS. Just because some people are able to save more doesn't mean they should lose the right to pass it on to their decendants. The government has already taken their share of what you've made while you were living. The estate tax is just the government's way of saying, "give us more." Seriously, because you die, the government gets to take 45% of what you own (it's recently down from 55%)??? It's double taxation of income.

Shouldn't their descendants have to make it on their own? Should we allow them to just be leeches?

Why is the middle class allowed to leech? If inheritance is leeching then everyone should be taxed.
 
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