How does a Chiropractor cause a tear that leads to a stroke?

[Vic Vega]

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[homercles337]

Chiropractic care works. I've experienced it myself and my father who has always been a skeptic of "quackery" has had real results and felt better (pain gone) after going to a chiropractor.

Medical training or not, it works.

Would you say it "works" in the same way magic works?

 

[Juddog]

This is kind of a separate issue from being at the chiropractor; chances are that he could have loosened / detached the blood clot via other ways if he was stretching or going through intense physical activity.

Going to the chiropractor is really good for one thing - getting something back in place that you can't get back into place on your own. For example I had a kink in my neck for close to a week and a half that started to bother / annoy me more and more every day. I went to the chiropractor and got it cracked or whatever the term is, and a few days later felt great. No matter how I messed with trying to get it back into place myself, nothing would work.

Yes there are crackpots in the chiropractor practice just like there are in any other practice (for example the Yoga thing posted a week ago where someone was apparently claiming that Yoga could cure AIDS), but when it comes to issues with your back / neck, there is nothing better that I have experienced at relieving issues than setting it back in place so that your body can get back to normal.

 

[Patranus]

Your points? Kaiser is for profit. Use your brain.

Really, last time I check Kaiser was a non-profit.

Then again I guess it is me who isn't using their brain :whiste:

 

[sourceninja]

This is kind of a separate issue from being at the chiropractor; chances are that he could have loosened / detached the blood clot via other ways if he was stretching or going through intense physical activity.

Going to the chiropractor is really good for one thing - getting something back in place that you can't get back into place on your own. For example I had a kink in my neck for close to a week and a half that started to bother / annoy me more and more every day. I went to the chiropractor and got it cracked or whatever the term is, and a few days later felt great. No matter how I messed with trying to get it back into place myself, nothing would work.

Yes there are crackpots in the chiropractor practice just like there are in any other practice (for example the Yoga thing posted a week ago where someone was apparently claiming that Yoga could cure AIDS), but when it comes to issues with your back / neck, there is nothing better that I have experienced at relieving issues than setting it back in place so that your body can get back to normal.

The question is, could you have gone to a massage therapist or a PT and got the same relief without the mumbojumbo?

 

[Eug]

Interestingly, the last massage therapist I went to was a licenced chiropractor as well. No mumbo jumbo, and she gave useful advice with regards to different possible mattress options for those with back problems.

 

[Codewiz]

Vic.. once again you don't know what you are talking about.. If it works, whether you dont want to believe it does or not, then it works. It's that simple. I've never "had my spine cracked" nor has my father.

:whiste::whiste:

Actually, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Outside of lower back relief in VERY specific instances, there are almost NO peer reviewed studies that show any efficacy for any chiropractic treatment that exceeds placebo effect.

Same with acupuncture. Is there relief? Sure but nothing more than placebo. When you do double blind studies with acupuncture and chiropractic treatments, they fall flat on their face because they are bogus.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

I personally have fear of anyone touching my neck to crack it. Plus I don't need it.

Chiropractors, though, have done a world of good for my wife's back and neck. The tension in her back/neck gets to be so extreme that only a Chiropractor and massage can get her functioning again.

Is this chiropractor the only one that do these magical adjustments? Was he a pool boy at one time?

 

[Mark R]

My coworker had a stroke and the only info I have is:

He had a chiropractic adjustment that resulted a tear that caused a blood clot and then a stroke.

There are 2 pairs of arteries that supply blood to the brain; the carotid arteries (at the front of the neck) and the vertebral arteries (at the back).

The vertebral arteries run through a narrow tunnel in the vertebral bones of the neck. There is enough slack in the arteries, so that as you bend you neck, the arteries will bend.

Chiropractic manipulation's intention is to put a lot of stress on the individual bones, and push them about with respect to each other. Unlike bending of the neck, where the force and movement is spread out across all the neck bones, this manipulation is often concentrated on single bones. This can produce a lot more stress and tighter curves on that artery then you normally get.

This type of stress can tear the delicate internal lining of the artery (not the thick muscular outer layer). Once the inner lining of the artery is torn, the flowing blood can "lift" it up like a flap, and the flap can then block the artery cutting off the blood flow, or blood clots can form on the flap, which then break off under the flow of blood and block a smaller artery furhter on.

Vertebral artery dissections are rare, but there is an association with them occurring after neck injury, rear-end car crashes where headrests were not correctly positioned, or abnormal neck movement (e.g. getting your hair washed at a salon where the neck is bent back to get into the sink). There is also a link with chiropractic manipulation; it's not proven that it is definitely the chiropractic, but it's a reasonable theory. (There is an opposite theory which says people go to chiropractic because they've got a vertebral artery dissection causing their neck pain).

 

[Yreka]

I have to imagine Etis scrolling through the OT threads.. Sees this title and the fact that its at 2+ pages, and experiences an overwhelming sense of dread as he clicks the link

 

[KeithTalent]

I have to imagine Etis scrolling through the OT threads.. Sees this title and the fact that its at 2+ pages, and experiences an overwhelming sense of dread as he clicks the link

I'm sure he's smart enough to have a higher posts per page setting.

KT

 

[Juddog]

There are 2 pairs of arteries that supply blood to the brain; the carotid arteries (at the front of the neck) and the vertebral arteries (at the back).

The vertebral arteries run through a narrow tunnel in the vertebral bones of the neck. There is enough slack in the arteries, so that as you bend you neck, the arteries will bend.

Chiropractic manipulation's intention is to put a lot of stress on the individual bones, and push them about with respect to each other. Unlike bending of the neck, where the force and movement is spread out across all the neck bones, this manipulation is often concentrated on single bones. This can produce a lot more stress and tighter curves on that artery then you normally get.

This type of stress can tear the delicate internal lining of the artery (not the thick muscular outer layer). Once the inner lining of the artery is torn, the flowing blood can "lift" it up like a flap, and the flap can then block the artery cutting off the blood flow, or blood clots can form on the flap, which then break off under the flow of blood and block a smaller artery furhter on.

Vertebral artery dissections are rare, but there is an association with them occurring after neck injury, rear-end car crashes where headrests were not correctly positioned, or abnormal neck movement (e.g. getting your hair washed at a salon where the neck is bent back to get into the sink). There is also a link with chiropractic manipulation; it's not proven that it is definitely the chiropractic, but it's a reasonable theory. (There is an opposite theory which says people go to chiropractic because they've got a vertebral artery dissection causing their neck pain).

Good info; I didn't know about this.

 

[OverVolt]

The surgery caused the clot not the Chiropractor. Though the Chiropractor probably broke the clot loose. Clots can be a complication of surgery like that. You are supposed to follow the orders afterward. Going to the chiropractor isn't one of them. I don't really think the chiropractor is at fault.

 

[Mark R]

The surgery caused the clot not the Chiropractor. Though the Chiropractor probably broke the clot loose. Clots can be a complication of surgery like that. You are supposed to follow the orders afterward. Going to the chiropractor isn't one of them. I don't really think the chiropractor is at fault.

Surgery on the foot is unlikely to damage an artery in the neck sufficient to cause a clot.

Clots following surgery tend to form in the leg veins. Blood flow is slow, and after surgery while you are lying in bed doing nothing, the flow is even slower, and stagnant blood can clot (especially, if the body is producing various injury repair hormones from the site of surgery, the function of some of which is to accelerate blood clotting).

Clots forming in the veins don't (generally*) cause strokes. Before blood gets from the legs to the brain (or other organ) it must first go through the lungs to be oxygenated. The tissue of the lungs will therefore act as a filter and filter out small clots (big clots will cause death by blocking up the lungs).

Diagnosis of a arterial tear which has subsequently clotted is very easy with modern MRI or CT, and would be a standard test in a young, fit person who has a stroke.

(*): If the heart is incorrectly formed or plumbed in, or if god contracted out the job to a plumber having a bad day, then it is possible for a clot from the legs to cause a stroke by bypassing the lungs. This type of malformation usually gets noticed in childhood, but rarely, it might not get picked up; So checking the anatomy of the heart, lungs, arteries and veins is often done if someone young and fit gets a stroke seemingly for no reason.

 

[Meghan54]

Clots forming in the veins don't (generally*) cause strokes. Before blood gets from the legs to the brain (or other organ) it must first go through the lungs to be oxygenated. The tissue of the lungs will therefore act as a filter and filter out small clots (big clots will cause death by blocking up the lungs).

Now, from what I was taught, the lungs don't filter clots....where would they be broken down, or undergoing lysis? Admittedly, my medical training is from the 1970's-1990's, but I don't think much has changed with human anatomy since I left the profession.

If anything, very small clots lodge in an individual alveolar sac's capillary/vessel and block blood flow just to that sac, not exactly life threatening and probably causes transient pain that would be attributed to something else. Larger clots can and do cause PE's, or pulmonary embolus. And essentially, the alveolar sac that had its blood flow blocked was also a PE, just non-life threatening....at least then.

The lungs have no intrinsic capabilities to lyse blood clots, nor filter and/or absorb clots. Once you have a clot, you have a clot. The question is where will it lodge.

 

[ichy]

Chiropractic care works. I've experienced it myself and my father who has always been a skeptic of "quackery" has had real results and felt better (pain gone) after going to a chiropractor.

Anecdote is not a synonym for evidence. If you went back 300 years I'm sure you could find people who'd swear that bleeding or leeches made them feel better. Doesn't mean those treatments actually worked.

As others have said some of what chiropractors do is basically physical therapy with a lot of mumbo jumbo thrown in. I'm sure that does have the ability to make people feel better although I don't know why you'd see a chiropractor over a physical therapist. All the stuff about spine alignment though? Unscientific quackery.

 

[Mark R]

Now, from what I was taught, the lungs don't filter clots....where would they be broken down, or undergoing lysis? Admittedly, my medical training is from the 1970's-1990's, but I don't think much has changed with human anatomy since I left the profession.

Clots have an intrinsic ability to lyse. The majority of clots will spontaneously lyse wherever they lodge, whether treated or not, although not necessarily completely.

It's well recognised that the number of strokes in people with right-to-left shunts is disproportionately high. A similar association with right-to-left shunt is found in migraine, and there is a hypothesis that a proportion of migraine is actually micro-emboli; repair of the shunt has been shown to be effective in this group of migraine sufferers.

It is therefore likely that tiny clots form periodically and cause undetected pulmonary emboli in healthy people. It's not well known whether these subclinical PEs then lyse or remain, although it is presumed that the majority lyse.

The lungs certainly do catch small clots. It's not the main function, but it certainly does happen. The point is that venous clots normally end up in the lungs, where if small, they are irrelevant. Small clots in the main arterial system can be extremely relevant.

 

[PenguinPower]

42 posts in a chiropractic thread and no eits? Was he banned?

 

[SparkyJJO]

Don't bring science into these discussions - these people like their voodoo and don't want to be told different.

Tell me - do you or do you not believe that pinched nerves can cause pain or other nerve-related issues?

If you don't, I suggest you look at the science behind it. That's pretty well proven.

A GOOD chiropractor understands these things and helps to put stuff back into alignment to alleviate the problems caused by pinched nerves. A good chiropractor will also not claim to be able to magically cure cancer or something like that with an alignment.

Sounds to me you (like many others) are lumping all chiropractors into one group - the bad group - and basing your attacks on that. There are bad physical therapists, surgeons, dentists, plumbers, roofers, etc. but we all know and accept that the bad ones don't represent the good ones who know what they're doing.

 

[Vic Vega]

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[SlickSnake]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-sorbo/stroke-prevention_b_2537971.html

(from Wikipedia)

In late 1997, the newly-engaged Sorbo, while on a publicity tour for Kull the Conqueror and between the 4th and 5th seasons of Hercules, experienced an aneurysm in his shoulder, which after chiropractic manipulation led to three strokes.[10][11] As a result, he was weakened for the next several years, a condition that the Hercules producers and he kept secret from the public during his recovery. During the last two seasons of Hercules, the 5th and 6th, which aired in 1998 and 1999, Sorbo was given a reduced filming schedule to accommodate his condition, and more guest stars were brought in.[12] The strokes, said to have been triggered when chiropractic manipulation of his shoulder released multiple blood clots from the aneurysm, left Sorbo with permanent 10% vision loss, weakness, impaired balance and migraines.[13] In 2011, Sorbo revealed the details of his injury and, aided by his new wife, Sam, his arduous recovery, in his autobiography, True Strength[14].

Saw an interwiew with an actor that this happened to. Beef cake barbarian type on a tv series...don't remember his name.

He was on the Ricki Lake show last week. I never watch Ricki Lake, and for some reason I had it on while on the PC one day.

Weirdest part was just before he had his neck adjusted, he said he heard a voice say "Don't turn your neck". He asked the chiropractor "Did you say something?" and he said "No". He heard it 2 times before he had the adjustment. Then, while driving on his way home, he suffered the strokes.

 

[SparkyJJO]

You can't read as I already addressed this. My guess is you work in the chiropractic industry.

lol. No, not even close. I don't work in any medical-related industry for that matter.

But do you work for big pharma?

Chiropractors treating pinched nerves with physical therapy are not practicing chiropractic, they are practicing physical therapy. This is an effort to legitimize their profession and it's a lie, plain and simple. Then we get idiots like you who come on the Internet and claim that physical therapy for pinched nerves is a function of chiropractic. It's not. It's not.

As far as actual chiropractic (what they teach in school), there is zero, ZERO scientific evidence supporting spinal dysfunction/subluxation or the ability of a chiropractor to "adjust" any damn thing.

There is no reason to see a chiropractor. If you have a pinched nerve or some other physical condition which can't be solved by your family doctor on their recommendation you should see a physical therapist.

Chiropractors in general do not treat with physical therapy for pinched nerves. They realign the bones that are pinching said nerves to start with. They are better for pinched nerves than a physical therapist as they directly target the problem and fix it.

A physical therapist is excellent for regaining range of motion, strength, control, etc after surgery or whatever. A chiropractor can't help with that stuff. Physical therapy may help with pinched nerves yes but it is going to take longer (and also cost more) in most cases. All depends.

Again, you are reacting to all the bad chiropractors out there (and there are many), lumping the good ones in there with them, and then attacking the whole lot. And again, this is just as ridiculous as attacking all therapists because some are bad, or all dentists because some are bad, or whatever.

 

[notposting]

eits knows

<Ackbar> It's a trap! </Ackbar>

 

[Vic Vega]

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[SparkyJJO]

Oh yeah, I work for big pharma after I have been pushing PT (real science) in this thread.

Please, ignore this idiot. Another moron pushing quack pseudo-science.

This person is the equivalent to an evangelical Christian telling you Jesus saves your soul.

There is no Jesus, there is no soul, there are no such thing as spinal dysfunction/subluxation, "alignments" are bullshit and dangerous.

Visit a chiropractor at your own risk. It's not medicine, it's not science and could give you a stroke.

lol

Attacking the person is always a good way to make your position stronger. Good job

It is quite amusing how you're getting so worked up over this.

I guess all those Xrays clearly showing misalignment must be fake too since you said that can't happen, never mind that you don't actually work in that area. Do you even know what the definition of subluxation is? It isn't limited to Chiropractic at all.

Well, at least you did get one thing right in your rant. I am a Christian.