How does a FlatTax with an exemption hurt the poor?

[nextJin]

Flat tax hurts the poor I don't think anyone sane would question that, but even taxing them 1% no if ands or buts would force them to start paying attention to free stuff not being free (see sig).

I'd like to abolish the income tax personally and replace it with nothing but as it is, I think we should start at 1% with no exceptions going through to 35% or whatever you'd want at the upper levels.

 

[berzerker60]

that's not how exemptions work. If you exempt $40k of income, you're only taxed on the excess of $40k. You don't lose the exemption once you reach the threshold.

Fair enough. It still hurts those at the lower end of the paying scale much worse than those at the upper end, which is bad for society.

Flat tax hurts the poor I don't think anyone sane would question that, but even taxing them 1% no if ands or buts would force them to start paying attention to free stuff not being free (see sig).

I'd like to abolish the income tax personally and replace it with nothing but as it is, I think we should start at 1% with no exceptions going through to 35% or whatever you'd want at the upper levels.

They already pay lots of taxes, just not federal income tax. Taking extra money from them via income tax when we're trying to give them opportunity to get back on their own feet via giving THEM money is stupid.

 

[thraashman]

You guys do understand that Colbert doesn't actually believe the things he's saying, right? That he's a parody of Limbaugh and similar folks, and you're supposed to be laughing at how ridiculous the things he says are rather than because you agree with him?

The problem is how do you parody a group who honestly believes shit more crazy than satire can affect.

 

[nextJin]

They already pay lots of taxes, just not federal income tax. Taking extra money from them via income tax when we're trying to give them opportunity to get back on their own feet via giving THEM money is stupid.

That's my point, your throwing money at people who honestly have no idea what they take from those who pay in.

A society that can vote in free stuff is absolutely doomed to failure. We have people in this country whose entire families are generational welfare takers and they are popping out kids every 10 months like it's free candy.

It's laughable, where are we now that the war on poverty was started some decades ago? No where. Trillions spent and nothing to show for it.

 

[EagleKeeper]

They already pay lots of taxes, just not federal income tax. Taking extra money from them via income tax when we're trying to give them opportunity to get back on their own feet via giving THEM money is stupid.

How many are at the threshold of getting back on their feet that a 5% hit will dump them?

How long of an opportunity are you willing to give them?

but paying that 5% makes them more responsible when deciding how they want other peoples money spent.

 

[Jimzz]

The flat tax is nothing more than getting the middle class and lowwer class to pay more taxs and allow the upper class to pay less.

The Fed will need to still pull in at least as much as it does now. Cutting the rates the upper class pays needs to be backfilled somewhere and that is where the low/middle class comes in.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Flat tax hurts the poor I don't think anyone sane would question that, but even taxing them 1% no if ands or buts would force them to start paying attention to free stuff not being free (see sig).

I'd like to abolish the income tax personally and replace it with nothing but as it is, I think we should start at 1% with no exceptions going through to 35% or whatever you'd want at the upper levels.

... flat tax hurts the poor? How the fuck does 10% across the board hurt a particular group detective sherlock? Jesus fuck, where do you people get your lack of logic from?

$10000 from $100000 is 10%
$1000 from $10000 is 10%
$100 from $1000 is 10%
$10 from $100 is 10%


God forbid people pay their fair share. But I guess when your professional career is picking the next set pair of pockets to pull from, I guess it is kind of harsh

 

[nextJin]

I don't think liberals will be happy until its something like -30% to 95% rates. God knows that is basically what most of them advocate.

 

[nextJin]

... flat tax hurts the poor? How the fuck does 10% across the board hurt a particular group detective sherlock? Jesus fuck, where do you people get your lack of logic from?

$10000 from $100000 is 10%
$1000 from $10000 is 10%
$100 from $1000 is 10%
$10 from $100 is 10%


God forbid people pay their fair share. But I guess when your professional career is picking the next set pair of pockets to pull from, I guess it is kind of harsh

Because some 50% take more than they put in, taking anything from them at this point hurts them. Hurt being a general term, namely making them responsible but I am talking in liberaleez.

 

[xBiffx]

he Fed will need to still pull in at least as much as it does now. Cutting the rates the upper class pays needs to be backfilled somewhere and that is where the low/middle class comes in.

How about starting with collecting from the ~50% who pay zero right now. That would go along way to backfill.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

How about starting with collecting from the ~50% who pay zero right now. That would go along way to backfill.

inb4 excuse they are living on poverty - yet have a car, house without roommates, cell phone, and satellite dish TV / Cable with a 40"+ flat TV

 

[jackstar7]

And why don't we get blood from stones? We know it's in there. Stones need to start paying their fair share, too.

 

[xBiffx]

And why don't be get blood from stones? We know it's in there. Stones need to start paying their fair share, too.

When we give stones free blood of course we know its there.

 

[jackstar7]

When we give stones free blood of course we know its there.

Oh right, because they horde blood-wealth just as the blood-rich do. All their investments and lifestyle choices are lavish!

Those poor sure do live high on the blood-hog.

 

[xBiffx]

Oh right, because they horde blood-wealth just as the blood-rich do. All their investments and lifestyle choices are lavish!

Those poor sure do live high on the blood-hog.

Since when does one have to be rich, live a lavish life, or live high on the hog to pay taxes. I'm not any of those and I still cut a check to the IRS every year as do many others.

 

[Jimzz]

How about starting with collecting from the ~50% who pay zero right now. That would go along way to backfill.

Who pays zero tax in the US?

 

[Jimzz]

... flat tax hurts the poor? How the fuck does 10% across the board hurt a particular group detective sherlock? Jesus fuck, where do you people get your lack of logic from?

$10000 from $100000 is 10%
$1000 from $10000 is 10%
$100 from $1000 is 10%
$10 from $100 is 10%


God forbid people pay their fair share. But I guess when your professional career is picking the next set pair of pockets to pull from, I guess it is kind of harsh

10% would not even come close to bringing in the current amount needed. Try again.

 

[xBiffx]

Who pays zero tax in the US?

Nice try moving the goal posts.

You mentioned Fed. Your entire post was aimed at federal income tax. Plenty pay zero federal income tax.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

10% would not even come close to bringing in the current amount needed. Try again.

Where the fuck did I say that 10% was the ideal tax rate? I said 10% is 10%, everyone is contributing equally - I didn't say that would balance our budget - but it would certainly make the other shit-half of society toss in a chip.

 

[xBiffx]

10% would not even come close to bringing in the current amount needed. Try again.

How you think that?

When ~75 million pay zero.

When ~1.5 million pay nearly 40% of all fed tax.

When ~73 million pay the remainder or about 60% of all fed tax.

Guessing that many of that ~73 million pay right at the 10% level right now.

If that ~75 million started paying 10% that would go along way.

 

[berzerker60]

But a flat tax isn't fair! Everyone should pay the same amount! Let's just divide up taxes evenly among everyone! At $1.1 trillion in tax collected last year, and 312 million people, that's $3,525 per person per year! I heard this anecdote once about a person on welfare with a nice TV, so that must mean everyone on welfare is a cheat, so that shouldn't be a problem! It's the only fair way.

[Note: I did the math here incorrectly before. The point still stands that this is the only "fair" way, while still fucking the poor for the benefit of those better off.]


Anyone who believes that a flat tax is "fair" and thinks being poor in America is in any way 'easy,' much less easier than being rich, lives in a world completely divorced from reality. We're the richest nation on Earth, yet allow the vast majority of that wealth to go to a tiny tiny fraction while a huge number of working people are in poverty, and yet these rich and powerful are able to trick a huge number of morons into thinking that problem is that the poor aren't paying enough taxes and suffering enough. Ugh.

 

[hans030390]

Now, please go back and redo that chart, this time showing the percentage of total income tax paid by each group.

Assuming you are using real numbers, the figures released by the Government are already split by quintiles, so this should be easy for you to break out.

Edit: Noticed that it actually came from Moveon.org, so a bit of cherry picking of statistics is to be expected in one of their graphs. Being that the other source link shows it's clear bias by using naming nomenclature such as "whorulesamerica" "power" and "wealth", it is crystal clear that the chart was designed based around an agenda, not the clear display of facts.

Translation: Your chart is flawed and therefore invalid.

Instead of those almost militantly-biased sources, I am going to use the numbers of the non-profit Tax Foundation, located here.

In 2009, the top 1% had 16.9% of the total reported AGI and paid 36.7% of the total tax burden.

Top 5%? 31.7% of total AGI, 58.7% of total tax burden.

Top 10%? 43.2% of total AGI, 70.5% of total tax burden.

Top 25%? 65.8% of total AGI, 87.3% of total tax burden.

Top 50%? 86.5% of total AGI, 97.7% of total tax burden.

So much for your "chart".

What about it? The person or group of people with the largest amount of income has more income to be taxed on than others, so they end up paying a larger share of the taxes. Even if we had a flat tax, the top 1-10% would still be paying a disproportionately large share of the taxes compared to everyone else...because they also have a disproportionate amount and concentration of wealth compared to everyone else to begin with.

People too often look at this situation backwards.

 

[glenn1]

Who pays zero tax in the US?

Obviously no one, since there's plenty of other taxes out there besides income. Stangely enough though, many of the non income taxes are already flat or mostly flat (i.e. flat sales tax, but with exemptions for foodstuffs). It slightly baffles me why progressives so strongly support progressive income taxes but also favor regressive everything else taxes.

 

[xBiffx]

But a flat tax isn't fair! Everyone should pay the same amount! Let's just divide up taxes evenly among everyone! At $1.1 trillion in tax collected last year, and 312 million people, that's just $3,500,000 per person per year! I heard this anecdote once about a person on welfare with a nice TV, so that must mean everyone on welfare is a cheat, so that shouldn't be a problem! It's the only fair way.

Hell, let's cut 90% of all federal taxes, then the tax burden is just $350,000/person/year! No problem!


Anyone who believes that a flat tax is "fair" and thinks being poor in America is in any way 'easy,' much less easier than being rich, lives in a world completely divorced from reality. We're the richest nation on Earth, yet allow the vast majority of that wealth to go to a tiny tiny fraction while a huge number of working people are in poverty, and yet these rich and powerful are able to trick a huge number of morons into thinking that problem is that the poor aren't paying enough taxes and suffering enough. Ugh.

You post screams more of jealousy than anything else.

Even in a flat tax system, the rich are paying more than the poor. No one is talking about taking the tax burden and dividing it up evenly. The rich will still be taking on more of that burden that the poor. The percentage of their income just happens to be the same. The final dollar amounts will be vastly different.

For all the whining about the poor, what exactly does the current system do to make them any less poor. How would a flat tax change that?

 

[jackstar7]

Since when does one have to be rich, live a lavish life, or live high on the hog to pay taxes. I'm not any of those and I still cut a check to the IRS every year as do many others.

You and the others advocating for poor people to pay something (which is just advocating a net cut to the services they use) can continue to focus on the massive number of people who have little.

Get your war on the poor on.