How does a FlatTax with an exemption hurt the poor?

[Acanthus]

The flat tax is too regressive.

I'm for adding more tax brackets at the top end and creating a more graduated system for the rich. There is a big difference between a guy that owns a successful car dealership and a hedge fund manager.

Remove corporate taxes, impose tariffs on all nations that have a minimum wage that is lower than 70% of our current national minimum wage.

Tax all income as income, regardless of source.

Hit the reset button on all loopholes. Working from a clean slate, make each loophole a single line item that is voted on to be added to our tax code once again. This would allow people to debate the specifics of how they want loopholes steering our economy and nation as a whole.

 

[bryanl]

It's not the general concept of a flat tax that's unfavorable to the middle and lower classes but the commonly suggested rates of the tax and levels of exemption.

 

[Spungo]

It's not the general concept of a flat tax that's unfavorable to the middle and lower classes but the commonly suggested rates of the tax and levels of exemption.

Absolutely. Flat tax sounds great until we talk about the actual numbers involved. The numbers are horrendous for most Americans because that's the only way it can possibly work.

Forget the numbers example I put on the first page and just think about this logically. Having a flat tax is about leveling out the tax structure rather than reducing the amount of tax collected. Those are two separate issues entirely. The people arguing for the flat tax are saying that the top 10% or the top 1% are paying too much in taxes. If the top 10% see their taxes lowered, where must the rest of the tax money come from? The bottom 90%. We don't even need to go through the numbers to predict that this would be extremely unpopular among 90% of the population.

Can you imagine what the TV ads would look like?
"We have passed this excellent new tax plan. The average American family will see their taxes increased by $3,000 per year. Bill Gates will see his taxes decrease by $20,000,000 per year. We carefully looked at the situation and concluded that Bill Gates was drowning in taxes while your loser family was living high on the hog and paying too little."

 

[frowertr]

I'm all for a flat tax. Get rid of the IRS completely.

No loopholes. Everyone pays their share no matter their income.

 

[Incorruptible]

Why is it that there are so many who insist on hurting the rich? Everyone pays the SAME RATE not the same amount in taxes.

 

[thraashman]

Why is it that there are so many who insist on hurting the rich? Everyone pays the SAME RATE not the same amount in taxes.

And a rich person who pays 20% in taxes is still rich. In fact their life isn't affected in the least. A poor person who pays 20% in taxes is unable to do things like eat, pay rent, live.

 

[thraashman]

I'm all for a flat tax. Get rid of the IRS completely.

No loopholes. Everyone pays their share no matter their income.

A flat tax would not get rid of the IRS. You'd have to have an agency to collect the flat tax and to audit companies ensuring they don't collect tax as income and under report taxes. Which is something the IRS already does.

 

[hal2kilo]

Yes it's a matter of incompetence. Let's go back to the days where we had kings and queens and those with money were able to buy power/henchmen to confiscate the riches from those that aren't competent enough to form their own gang to fight off those that try to take their riches.

You along with a few other people have absolutely no clue what government does and it's impact on your life that you take for granted all while you sit in your house that was built adhering to government regulations that keep you and all your goods safe that you bought from stores that benefited from government built and maintained roads which helped keep costs down so that you can afford them with you salary you get from a company that can afford you thanks to the government and the protection and stability they provide in the market place. Of course, you being the competent person you are, you probably work from home utilizing that nice little invention government helped to create called the internet, to make your money that's kept safe by the government entity called the police.

But yes let's go back to the times when people only cared about getting theirs and fuck everyone else if they can't compete, survival of the fittest right? When was the last time humans had that mentality?

Take your caveman thinking and shove it up your ass! Go live on an island and create your own rules and culture, meanwhile, advanced thinking humans will continue evolving and creating and striving for a utopian society with the help of government that makes it all possible.

:thumbsup: ++

 

[BoberFett]

Take your caveman thinking and shove it up your ass! Go live on an island and create your own rules and culture, meanwhile, advanced thinking humans will continue evolving and creating and striving for a utopian society with the help of government that makes it all possible.

We used to have that. They were called states, but you fucktard "liberals" keep forcing more and more of your ideas on everybody in the republic whether they want them or not.

You force power to Washington, don't be surprised when people fight back on things they don't want and force things on you that you don't want.

 

[berzerker60]

And gee, why did we do that? Because the states were allowing slavery and continued to enforce Jim Crow for a century after the Civil War. State governments can be every bit as tyrannical and awful as a federal government. More/bigger government is neither inherently good nor bad.

 

[BoberFett]

And gee, why did we do that? Because the states were allowing slavery and continued to enforce Jim Crow for a century after the Civil War. State governments can be every bit as tyrannical and awful as a federal government. More/bigger government is neither inherently good nor bad.

Agreed. But as I've said many times, for as many great works as a large, powerful government can do, it can match with great evil. So far the US has done pretty well doing good, but I see it getting worse. Sure, we stopped the Nazis, but the military industrial complex has been running the show since then and given us Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq, not to mention whatever kind of trouble the CIA gets us into with various dictators around the world.

People like Craig keep banging on the idea that we don't need smaller government, just better government. I firmly believe smaller government is better government, and that bigger government simply grows out of control and begins to swing more towards evil acts than good.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

And a rich person who pays 20% in taxes is still rich. In fact their life isn't affected in the least. A poor person who pays 20% in taxes is unable to do things like eat, pay rent, live.

Oh boy here we go again. The rich can still survive after they pay X taxes, therefore it's justified. Socialist much?

Some people will struggle, as they should. It's called learning to budget. No, you don't need a Ribeye steak. Yes, you can survive off ramen (ask any college student). No, you don't need cable television. Yes, you can step outside and make something of yourself

 

[berzerker60]

Oh boy here we go again. The rich can still survive after they pay X taxes, therefore it's justified. Socialist much?

Some people will struggle, as they should. It's called learning to budget. No, you don't need a Ribeye steak. Yes, you can survive off ramen (ask any college student). No, you don't need cable television. Yes, you can step outside and make something of yourself

someone-who-has-no-conception-of-poverty.txt

 

[thraashman]

Oh boy here we go again. The rich can still survive after they pay X taxes, therefore it's justified. Socialist much?

Some people will struggle, as they should. It's called learning to budget. No, you don't need a Ribeye steak. Yes, you can survive off ramen (ask any college student). No, you don't need cable television. Yes, you can step outside and make something of yourself

I don't know about you, but I'm not comfortable advocating policy that will literally kill thousands of people because I both misunderstand and am scared of socialism.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I don't know about you, but I'm not comfortable advocating policy that will literally kill thousands of people because I both misunderstand and am scared of socialism.

Apparently you haven't heard of a simple concept: Sink or swim. It's amazing what people are capable of when they need to do something instead of asking them to do something for 5 years straight

 

[berzerker60]

On the other hand, some of us value human life.

 

[OutHouse]

And a rich person who pays 20% in taxes is still rich. In fact their life isn't affected in the least. A poor person who pays 20% in taxes is unable to do things like eat, pay rent, live.

bullshit.

 

[Spungo]

I don't know about you, but I'm not comfortable advocating policy that will literally kill thousands of people because I both misunderstand and am scared of socialism.

Maybe not kill people, but it will make USA look like even more of a third world country.
All yall silly parents who wanted to send your kids to private schools, think again. The libertarians want a solid 1/3 of your money with no exemptions. You and the wife make 60k together? Pay 20k in taxes per year, no deductions. That way we can drop Bill Gates' tax rate to only 30% instead of being around 40%! Yay!

Some people on this forum really do pay 30% of their entire income to the IRS. For the ones who do not pay 30%, look at your own budget and tell me how badly that would fuck you. You can find what your current federal tax burden is on this page:
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

 

[OutHouse]

I don't know about you, but I'm not comfortable advocating policy that will literally kill thousands of people because I both misunderstand and am scared of socialism.

jesus fuck. are you really saying a flat tax will kill people oh wait "that will literally kill thousands of people" ????? holy balls dude get a grip.

 

[OutHouse]

Maybe not kill people, but it will make USA look like even more of a third world country.
All yall silly parents who wanted to send your kids to private schools, think again. The libertarians want a solid 1/3 of your money with no exemptions. You and the wife make 60k together? Pay 20k in taxes per year, no deductions. That way we can drop Bill Gates' tax rate to only 30% instead of being around 40%! Yay!

Some people on this forum really do pay 30% of their entire income to the IRS. For the ones who do not pay 30%, look at your own budget and tell me how badly that would fuck you. You can find what your current federal tax burden is on this page:
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

so you are saying that the tax rate we pay now is going to be the flat tax? i was under the impression we were talking about a flat tax being like 10% for EVERYBODY.

 

[Spungo]

jesus fuck. are you really saying a flat tax will kill people oh wait "that will literally kill thousands of people" ????? holy balls dude get a grip.

It would where I live. Making 20k per year means you make $1,666 per month. Jacking up your taxes to a flat 30% would cost an extra $500/month in taxes compared to $0/mo poor people currently pay. Studio apartments cost about $800/mo, so those together have already eaten up $1,300. Have fun trying to feed yourself and pay your power bill and a bus pass for only $366/month. Low budget place gets bed bugs? I guess you're fucked now. You sleep on the carpet with no blanket. Get the flu one time and your ass is homeless.

 

[berzerker60]

Taking significant amounts of money from those in poverty through taxation could very well lead to many many deaths.

http://feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/hunger-facts/hunger-and-poverty-statistics.aspx

In 2011, 16.1 million (22.0 percent) children under the age of 18 were in poverty.
In 2011, 5.7 percent of households (6.8 million households) experienced very low food security.
In 2011, 8.8 percent of seniors living alone (1 million households) were food insecure.

There are many thousands to millions of Americans who literally struggle every day to get together enough food to live for themselves and their families. Poverty isn't some lower middle class lifestyle where you can cut back on cable TV, it's a desperate bid for survival, and it exists all across this country in appalling numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

In November 2012 the U.S. Census Bureau said more than 16% of the population lived in poverty in the United States, including almost 20% of American children,[1] up from 14.3% (approximately 43.6 million) in 2009 and to its highest level since 1993. In 2008, 13.2% (39.8 million) Americans lived in poverty.[2]

In 2011, Extreme poverty in the United States, meaning households living on less than $2 per day before government benefits, was double 1996 levels at 1.5 million households, including 2.8 million children.

About 25% of those in poverty have jobs that just don't pay enough to provide basic necessities, much less savings.

http://www.mailman.columbia.edu/academic-departments/epidemiology/research-service/death-poverty

In the first comprehensive analysis of such studies, researchers at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health found that poverty, low levels of education, poor social support and other social factors contribute about as many deaths in the U.S. as such familiar causes as heart attacks, strokes and lung cancer. The full study findings are published online ahead of print in the American Journal of Public Health.

 

[Spungo]

so you are saying that the tax rate we pay now is going to be the flat tax? i was under the impression we were talking about a flat tax being like 10% for EVERYBODY.

So you're going to cut Bill Gates down from 40% to 10% and run the largest deficits for any country in history? And you think that will make the union stronger?

 

[OutHouse]

It would where I live. Making 20k per year means you make $1,666 per month. Jacking up your taxes to a flat 30% would cost an extra $500/month in taxes compared to $0/mo poor people currently pay. Studio apartments cost about $800/mo, so those together have already eaten up $1,300. Have fun trying to feed yourself and pay your power bill and a bus pass for only $366/month. Low budget place gets bed bugs? I guess you're fucked now. You sleep on the carpet with no blanket. Get the flu one time and your ass is homeless.

A. Flat tax would not be 30%

 

[Spungo]

A. Flat tax would not be 30%

How not? A huge majority of taxes collected come from the upper class which currently has a top federal rate of almost 40%. If you get every McDonalds employee to start paying the same percent taxes as the people who earn millions per year, where do you think the flat tax would land?


Let's put that another way. I'm an average person and my effective federal tax rate is about 16%. A guy making 1 million per year would pay 35% of his total income to taxes according to the tax calculator. If you want regular people like me and guys making 1 million or 10 million or 100 million to pay the same tax percentage, what should the flat tax percentage be to make this work? 20% is definitely way too low since most taxes are paid by rich people, not people like me. It would probably be closer to 30% flat tax.