How does a FlatTax with an exemption hurt the poor?

[xBiffx]

So you're going to cut Bill Gates down from 40% to 10% and run the largest deficits for any country in history? And you think that will make the union stronger?

Hardly. ~75 million new tax payers makes for a lot of revenue. Even at 10%.

 

[berzerker60]

Thankfully we can use tools to do the math for us rather than pulling numbers from our biased asses.
http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2011/09/design-your-own-flat-income-tax.html#.UYrKSsqXSYQ
To be revenue neutral compared to last year, you need about 25% ($1.1 trillion in income tax revenue). More if you're going for a balanced budget.

 

[Paratus]

Taking significant amounts of money from those in poverty through taxation could very well lead to many many deaths.

http://feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/hunger-facts/hunger-and-poverty-statistics.aspx
There are many thousands to millions of Americans who literally struggle every day to get together enough food to live for themselves and their families. Poverty isn't some lower middle class lifestyle where you can cut back on cable TV, it's a desperate bid for survival, and it exists all across this country in appalling numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

About 25% of those in poverty have jobs that just don't pay enough to provide basic necessities, much less savings.

http://www.mailman.columbia.edu/academic-departments/epidemiology/research-service/death-poverty

Dude don't you know there's like some guy who was poor and is now CEO and so like if he could do it, than anyone can do it, and if anyone can do it then EVERYONE can do it!

Just ask s0me0nesblind he'll tell ya!

 

[Paratus]

Hardly. ~75 million new tax payers makes for a lot of revenue. Even at 10%.

With what income/wealth? You could tax the bottom 20% at 100% and not make a dent in the debt.

I mean if govt is going to raise taxes by use of a flat tax and prevent poor people from buying food AND cut welfare programs then what do you think those people are going to do?

Maybe this is one of those 2nd amendment remedy things you guys keep going on about

 

[Incorruptible]

In order for the flat tax to be effective then there must be a cut in spending otherwise it won't work.

 

[xBiffx]

I mean if govt is going to raise taxes by use of a flat tax and prevent poor people from buying food AND cut welfare programs then what do you think those people are going to do?

Cry me a river. Taxing the bottom isn't going to starve anyone.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Cry me a river. Taxing the bottom isn't going to starve anyone.

But... but... they might have to start budgeting their finances. OH no!

They can no longer have cable TV! WHAT A DISASTER! What else will they do during the day?!?!
They can't get lame magazines while in line like the National Equirer
They may have to reconsider paying $1.25 for a bottle of coke at work every week. Oh look, a savings of $65 there!
They can't afford a new car. Might have to stick with their current one. You know, the one that moves?
They might have to save on gas, they might have to take the bus... ewww!!!!
They may even need to live somewhere with a roommate in another bedroom! OH NO! COODIES!!!


Oh the HORROR... the HORRRRRRRRRRRRROR! I can't imagine what that would be like. Oh wait - yes I can. It's called college

 

[jackstar7]

But... but... they might have to start budgeting their finances. OH no!

They can no longer have cable TV! WHAT A DISASTER! What else will they do during the day?!?!
They can't get lame magazines while in line like the National Equirer
They may have to reconsider paying $1.25 for a bottle of coke at work every week. Oh look, a savings of $65 there!
They can't afford a new car. Might have to stick with their current one. You know, the one that moves?
They might have to save on gas, they might have to take the bus... ewww!!!!
They may even need to live somewhere with a roommate in another bedroom! OH NO! COODIES!!!


Oh the HORROR... the HORRRRRRRRRRRRROR! I can't imagine what that would be like. Oh wait - yes I can. It's called college

Again, proving you have no idea what poverty is.

 

[BoberFett]

Again, proving you have no idea what poverty is.

Nor do any Americans.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Nor do any Americans.

^^

 

[berzerker60]

Poverty is defined as $23k for a family of 4, or $11k for a single person. Good fucking luck living on that (without getting to crash in Mommy's basement), which is the top end of the 50 million Americans in poverty, including 1/5 of all American children.

Not everyone got handed a middle class life and just assumes everyone else did too.

And Jesus Christ, the fucking gall of comparing a few years of slumming it in college to growing up malnourished and unsure of where you next meal is coming from, never seeing a doctor, living in the shittiest possible housing or homeless, in a school district that barely deserves the name. 1.6 million American children are homeless you fucks.

 

[piasabird]

I cant afford cable tv either.

I cant afford a new car. I can only afford to run one car for two people working.

I could afford cable, but then I might not be able to heat or air condition the house.

Life is tough and then you die.

Less people would be in poverty if there was a mother and father in the home. People choose not to do this so they can get more money from the Government.

If a low income parent of 2 or 3 kids is employed for more than 6 months and makes $12,000 a year. That person will get enough tax deductions and credits to receive an $8,000 tax return from the IRS. That would put that person in the $20,000 a year category. If this same person had a husband, then they would probably just be the working poor with no help from the government.

The Government creates poverty!

 

[xBiffx]

Poverty is defined as $23k for a family of 4, or $11k for a single person. Good fucking luck living on that (without getting to crash in Mommy's basement), which is the top end of the 50 million Americans in poverty, including 1/5 of all American children.

Not everyone got handed a middle class life and just assumes everyone else did too.

And Jesus Christ, the fucking gall of comparing a few years of slumming it in college to growing up malnourished and unsure of where you next meal is coming from, never seeing a doctor, living in the shittiest possible housing or homeless, in a school district that barely deserves the name. 1.6 million American children are homeless you fucks.

I lived on minimum wage for 3 years. At the time it was $6/hr. Not much more than the "poverty" level. I did just fine. Rent, car, food, gas and bills were all covered. Sure I didn't get all the cool things like a huge TV, cable, cell phone, etc. but I still survived just fine. I even got to eat steak once in a while.

I didn't get handed the life/lifestyle I am in now. I earned it by working my way up. Again, cry me a fucking river.

 

[jackstar7]

Poverty is defined as $23k for a family of 4, or $11k for a single person. Good fucking luck living on that (without getting to crash in Mommy's basement), which is the top end of the 50 million Americans in poverty, including 1/5 of all American children.

Not everyone got handed a middle class life and just assumes everyone else did too.

And Jesus Christ, the fucking gall of comparing a few years of slumming it in college to growing up malnourished and unsure of where you next meal is coming from, never seeing a doctor, living in the shittiest possible housing or homeless, in a school district that barely deserves the name. 1.6 million American children are homeless you fucks.

Those kids need skin in the game. This will teach them responsibility. Etc.

EDIT: apparently I should add: Get a job, kids. Earn your way!

 

[jackstar7]

I lived on minimum wage for 3 years. At the time it was $6/hr. Not much more than the "poverty" level. I did just fine. Rent, car, food, gas and college loan payments and bills were all covered. Sure I didn't get all the cool things like a huge TV, cable, cell phone, etc. but I still survived just fine. I even got to eat steak one and a while.

I didn't get handed the life/lifestyle I am in now. I earned it by working my way up. Again, cry me a fucking river.

Can you explain more about your anecdotal experience? Where were you (city/region) when this was your life?

 

[berzerker60]

Less people would be in poverty if there was a mother and father in the home. People choose not to do this so they can get more money from the Government.

If a low income parent of 2 or 3 kids is employed for more than 6 months and makes $12,000 a year. That person will get enough tax deductions and credits to receive an $8,000 tax return from the IRS. That would put that person in the $20,000 a year category. If this same person had a husband, then they would probably just be the working poor with no help from the government.

The Government creates poverty!

Oh okay I guess the kids chose for their parents to have them in a bad economic condition too, they should be punished for being born to poor parents instead of rich parents. Bootstrap your way into the right womb, everyone! It's a workable plan for economic recovery!

I lived on minimum wage for 3 years. At the time it was $6/hr. Not much more than the "poverty" level. I did just fine. Rent, car, food, gas and bills were all covered. Sure I didn't get all the cool things like a huge TV, cable, cell phone, etc. but I still survived just fine. I even got to eat steak once in a while.

I didn't get handed the life/lifestyle I am in now. I earned it by working my way up. Again, cry me a fucking river.

I'm glad the government-mandated minimum wage kept your boss from paying you even less, and I'm glad the business you worked for didn't shut down or move away through no fault of your own, and I'm glad you didn't get a serious illness while you couldn't afford health insurance, and I'm glad you live in an area where this lifestyle was possible, and I'm glad you didn't have a family to support, and I'm glad you received a good enough education to get your job and manage your finances, and I'm glad none of the million other things that could derail a hard-worker's life through no fault of his own didn't destroy your opportunity to work your way up. Not everyone is that lucky.

 

[xBiffx]

Can you explain more about your anecdotal experience? Where were you (city/region) when this was your life?

Sure. Actually it was in a couple regions. Started in NM (rented a shithole house for $450/mo) before I was graduating college and then continued in N. NV. afterwards (rent is higher there and it was about $550/mo) before I landed a decent job. Even then, the first "real" job I had was only making $12/hr. Still was able to buy a home on that money.

I can't remember the exact rents but it was mid 400's and mid 500's. Car payments were something like $150 (was less than $200 for sure). So it didn't leave a lot of cash but was enough to cover food and bills.

 

[xBiffx]

I'm glad the government-mandated minimum wage kept your boss from paying you even less, and I'm glad the business you worked for didn't shut down or move away through no fault of your own, and I'm glad you didn't get a serious illness while you couldn't afford health insurance, and I'm glad you live in an area where this lifestyle was possible, and I'm glad you didn't have a family to support, and I'm glad you received a good enough education to get your job and manage your finances, and I'm glad none of the million other things that could derail a hard-worker's life through no fault of his own didn't destroy your opportunity to work your way up. Not everyone is that lucky.

I'm glad you can't tell the difference between an exception vs. the rule.

And btw, I had plenty of things happen that cost money outside of monthly finances during those three years.

 

[jackstar7]

I'm glad you can't tell the difference between an exception vs. the rule.

So are you the exception or the rule?

 

[xBiffx]

So are you the exception or the rule?

You'll figure it out.

 

[brycejones]

Sure. Actually it was in a couple regions. Started in NM (rented a shithole house for $450/mo) before I was graduating college and then continued in N. NV. afterwards (rent is higher there and it was about $550/mo) before I landed a decent job. Even then, the first "real" job I had was only making $12/hr. Still was able to buy a home on that money.

I can't remember the exact rents but it was mid 400's and mid 500's. Car payments were something like $150 (was less than $200 for sure). So it didn't leave a lot of cash but was enough to cover food and bills.

When was this? $12 in 1970 vs. $12 in 2007 is a big deal.

 

[xBiffx]

When was this? $12 in 1970 vs. $12 in 2007 is a big deal.

A little over 10 years ago.

 

[berzerker60]

So you made it by on $6/hr, which approximates to ~$12.5k/yr before taxes. Under a flat tax that generates the same revenue as today, we'd need about 25% (not counting SS/state sales taxes/state income taxes). Do you think you would have been able to make it with $9,400/yr before state and local taxes and social security? That's $780/month, minus mid 500s in rent, minus $150 car payment leaves $80/month for other utilities, food, health insurance, and enough entertainment to not go insane. Remember, still leaving out state and local taxes.
Even if we assume we magically just need 10%, that leaves you $240/month minus state/local taxes for everything you need, and health insurance would almost certainly eat most or all of that by itself.

That's the better tax plan, in your opinion, than having a wealthier person like you (presumably) are now pick up a somewhat higher, but bearable, burden so that earlier you had a chance to fight his way to your current position? And wealthier people than you are pick up a higher burden so you have a chance to improve your circumstances further, rather than increasing your taxes?

Keeping in mind that in addition to your hard work, you had the previously mentioned luck on your side, and that there's over 50 million Americans making substantially less than you were at the time who would face these same taxes on a flat tax plan without exemption.

 

[AustinInDallas]

here is my tax plan

first 10k is tax free.
over 15k-30k is taxed at 15% (ie: if you make 20k, you pay 15% of 5k=750)
over 30k-60k is taxed at 20%
over 60k-100k is taxed at 25%
over 100k-500k is taxed at 30%
over 500k is taxed at 40%

The income range can change, and the tax rate can change, but the idea is solid.

Last year I BARELY made it in the higher tax bracket, and its bullshit you have to pay 10% more on everything because you made 100 more than someone else

 

[thraashman]

here is my tax plan

first 10k is tax free.
over 15k-30k is taxed at 15% (ie: if you make 20k, you pay 15% of 5k=750)
over 30k-60k is taxed at 20%
over 60k-100k is taxed at 25%
over 100k-500k is taxed at 30%
over 500k is taxed at 40%

The income range can change, and the tax rate can change, but the idea is solid.

Last year I BARELY made it in the higher tax bracket, and its bullshit you have to pay 10% more on everything because you made 100 more than someone else

That's called progressive taxation and is basically what we have in place now. You mainly removed exemptions and aren't taxing capital gains at a lower rate. That's what most liberals support and is probably the only really effective and fair taxation formula.