How does a FlatTax with an exemption hurt the poor?

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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That's what I want to know.

I think that Hillary Clinton would probably institute a VAT if she were president without reducing other taxes. That would hurt the poor more than anything Rand Paul called for in his budget, no matter how imperfect it may have been.

I do not support the flat tax because it is a tax collected from individuals by the central govt (i.e., it sucks because it's a infringement on States' rights), but I don't understand how it would hurt the poor.

I also do not understand what the fuck is wrong with stripping the central govt of all taxation powers and merely allowing the national debt to be decentralized based upon representation.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Maybe it "hurts the poor" because it would strip away their feelgood illusion that Democrats are "sticking it to the man" via progressive taxation.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Some people do not like the idea of a flat tax because the lower income will actually have to pay taxes.

The progressive tax is felt allows justification soaking of those that have more income.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,332
15,128
136
Some people do not like the idea of a flat tax because the lower income will actually have to pay taxes.

The progressive tax is felt allows justification soaking of those that have more income.

Yep! God knows we wouldn't or shouldn't be giving any advantages to those damn dirty poor people! Hell! They already get so many more breaks and special treatment compared to rich people!
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
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It wouldn't hurt the poor since they already don't pay income tax but it would destroy the middle class. Here's what America's wealth distribution looks like:


Let's use that graph to make an example to show how flat tax differs from progressive tax. We'll just focus on the top 2 brackets. Suppose the top 1% is just 1 person and he has $43. The next 4 people have a total of $29, or $7.25 each. Let's just start with some simple progressive taxation numbers of 20% for the 4 people and 30% for the top 1 guy. At these rates the total tax collected would be:
(43)(0.3) + (29)(0.2)
12.9 + 5.8 = $18.7

Now figure out what the flat tax rate should be to collect that same amount of money from those 5 people.
(43 + 29)(x) = $18.7
(72)(x) = $18.7
x = 26% flat tax rate

Y'all see how that works? 4 guys see their taxes jacked from 20% to 26%. That's a relative increase of 30% (holy shit). That's to give a relative tax cut of 13.3% to 1 person and that one person getting that relatively small tax cut just happens to have more money than those 4 people combined.

Now apply this to 300 million people. Extremely rich people like Bill Gates see a small tax cut while the overwhelming majority of the population sees their taxes go through the roof.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Democrats love to talk about how the wealthy pay a lower effective rate than the middle class until you bring up a flat tax, at which point they backtrack and claim that the wealthy would pay less than they do now.

So which is it? Do the wealthy pay a lower effective rate right now or not?
 

Polarhound

Member
May 5, 2013
31
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It wouldn't hurt the poor since they already don't pay income tax but it would destroy the middle class. Here's what America's wealth distribution looks like:

Now, please go back and redo that chart, this time showing the percentage of total income tax paid by each group.

Assuming you are using real numbers, the figures released by the Government are already split by quintiles, so this should be easy for you to break out.

Edit: Noticed that it actually came from Moveon.org, so a bit of cherry picking of statistics is to be expected in one of their graphs. Being that the other source link shows it's clear bias by using naming nomenclature such as "whorulesamerica" "power" and "wealth", it is crystal clear that the chart was designed based around an agenda, not the clear display of facts.

Translation: Your chart is flawed and therefore invalid.

Instead of those almost militantly-biased sources, I am going to use the numbers of the non-profit Tax Foundation, located here.

In 2009, the top 1% had 16.9% of the total reported AGI and paid 36.7% of the total tax burden.

Top 5%? 31.7% of total AGI, 58.7% of total tax burden.

Top 10%? 43.2% of total AGI, 70.5% of total tax burden.

Top 25%? 65.8% of total AGI, 87.3% of total tax burden.

Top 50%? 86.5% of total AGI, 97.7% of total tax burden.

So much for your "chart".
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,332
15,128
136
Democrats love to talk about how the wealthy pay a lower effective rate than the middle class until you bring up a flat tax, at which point they backtrack and claim that the wealthy would pay less than they do now.

So which is it? Do the wealthy pay a lower effective rate right now or not?

Re read what you wrote and see if you can figure out whats wrong with your question.
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
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Basically there's diminishing returns on how much additional income improves your life. Your first few thousand dollars of income are crucial, giving you food and shelter. The next few thousand are nice, making your life better with cell phone, better housing, basic medical care, etc. The difference between $1million and $1.5 million gets you nicer things, sure, but your standard of living doesn't improve nearly as much as it did from $10,000 to $15,000. Once you're making $100 million/yr, another million/yr is appealing, especially as a symbol of how much people value you, but it doesn't really make much difference in how you live your life.

Now assume there are some crucial functions of government that cost X - firefighters, police, roads, food safety, whatever you consider legitimate uses of government. You have to design a way to get X from the populace in the way that encourages growth while hurting the economy and the people the least.

Say you set your exemption low, say $15k/yr. That excludes about 13.5% of the population. Here's a tool to estimate what rate of taxation you'd need with a flat tax: http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2011/09/design-your-own-flat-income-tax.html#.UYha3cof-KI Last year tax revenue was $1.1 trillion, which comes out to about a 25% flat tax.

Everyone has to pay enough to make up that exemption, so you actually need to charge proportionately more, which for someone making $20k/yr really really hurts (down to $15k), but for someone making $10 million/yr is no problem (still has $7.5 million). That means you're making it easier for the rich to stay rich and making it harder for people to struggle out of poverty. You're not encouraging growth, and while you're being "fair" in the sense that everyone is paying the same percentage (edit: has written 'number' here) of dollars, you're not being "fair" in the sense of spreading around the pain of taxation as lightly as possible.

If your exemption is more generous, say $40k, you're now asking just 60% of America to pay the taxes for everyone, which 1) will create resentment among the 60% and 2) makes it much more beneficial to report $39k income since you join the taxpayers at $40k and get a big tax burden. You're creating a big hurdle to people trying to advance and a disincentive to earn more money unless you can earn a LOT more money, which is unlikely for most people.

With progressive taxation, you're trying to make everyone "feel the pain" of taxes equally, while always creating incentive to earn more. There's no point in a progressive tax system where a higher salary + new taxation on it leaves you with less money - $100k after taxation is still more than $99k after taxation, and that's true for any increase. The guy making $100million/yr has to pay more dollars, but that last $20 million/yr wasn't going to be necessary to send him to college, buy his groceries and healthcare to keep productive in the workforce, or otherwise be as big of a boost in making him productive in society and his life significantly better like it would for the poor.

One thing lots of people on the far right (Milton Friedman) and far left agree about is actually having a negative income tax bracket at the bottom so that you keep this incentive system of always getting more as you work for it, but avoiding the nanny-state micromanaging of direct welfare payments.


So long story short, a flat tax with exemptions doesn't hurt those below the exemption, unless to make up for the lost revenue the government finds a way to tax them anyway, like DMV fees, road tolls, etc. but it does hurt their chances of building their way to the top through hard work and talent. It REALLY hurt those right above the exemption.
 
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berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
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Democrats love to talk about how the wealthy pay a lower effective rate than the middle class until you bring up a flat tax, at which point they backtrack and claim that the wealthy would pay less than they do now.

So which is it? Do the wealthy pay a lower effective rate right now or not?

Flat vs. progressive taxation has nothing to do with loopholes and deductions, except that loopholes make a progressive tax system less progressive. Currently our tax code has tons of loopholes so that it IS regressive in places.

Under a flat tax without loopholes, the rich would (probably) pay more.
Under a progressive tax without loopholes, the rich would pay much more.

Under a flat tax without loopholes, a middle class person pays much more, which hurts them a lot.
Under a progressive tax without loopholes, the rich pick up more of the tax burden and the middle class person could pay less.

Under a flat tax with current loopholes, the rich would pay basically no taxes and the entire tax burden would fall on the middle-to-lower class, and potentially corporations. Libertopia!
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
EVERYBODY IN THIS COUNTRY SHOULD PAY FEDERAL TAXES.

no more loopholes
no more write offs
no more april 15th tax day
everybody pays a % and thats it.

im so tired of hearing that a flat tax hurts the poor. you know i really dont give a shit. everybody should pay period.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
im so tired of hearing that a flat tax hurts the poor. you know i really dont give a shit. everybody should pay period.
5 cent tax on soda = THIS IS BULLSHIT
$2,000 tax on mcdonalds employees (that would be a modest 10% tax rate) = LOL FUCK THOSE LOSERS

Conservative schizophrenia strikes again.
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
EVERYBODY IN THIS COUNTRY SHOULD PAY FEDERAL TAXES.

no more loopholes
no more write offs
no more april 15th tax day
everybody pays a % and thats it.

im so tired of hearing that a flat tax hurts the poor. you know i really dont give a shit. everybody should pay period.

That's stupid and cruel.

There's a book you might enjoy called A Modest Proposal. Its suggested policies seem right up your alley.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,084
1,505
126
That's stupid and cruel.

There's a book you might enjoy called A Modest Proposal. Its suggested policies seem right up your alley.

Hey, there's some people out there that believe "If you're so abjectly poor that paying taxes would literally kill you, then perhaps you don't deserve to live." The moral of us call those people assholes.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Now, please go back and redo that chart, this time showing the percentage of total income tax paid by each group.

Assuming you are using real numbers, the figures released by the Government are already split by quintiles, so this should be easy for you to break out.

Edit: Noticed that it actually came from Moveon.org, so a bit of cherry picking of statistics is to be expected in one of their graphs. Being that the other source link shows it's clear bias by using naming nomenclature such as "whorulesamerica" "power" and "wealth", it is crystal clear that the chart was designed based around an agenda, not the clear display of facts.

Translation: Your chart is flawed and therefore invalid.

Instead of those almost militantly-biased sources, I am going to use the numbers of the non-profit Tax Foundation, located here.

In 2009, the top 1% had 16.9% of the total reported AGI and paid 36.7% of the total tax burden.

Top 5%? 31.7% of total AGI, 58.7% of total tax burden.

Top 10%? 43.2% of total AGI, 70.5% of total tax burden.

Top 25%? 65.8% of total AGI, 87.3% of total tax burden.

Top 50%? 86.5% of total AGI, 97.7% of total tax burden.

So much for your "chart".

If we correlate your data with the share of wealth... It sounds about right. Especially if you consider debts. There is a huge swath of Americans with negative net worth, especially the younger generations with enormous student loan burdens that can never be expunged.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
The concept of standards of living in america is... laughable. The concept of entitlement to a roof over your head - and that roof being a house that was built by 20 other people over the course of 6 months.

No-no-no- that roof can't be an apartment with 3 other people with 4 bedrooms like every college student with half a brain went through. Apparently even with mass transit - everyone is entitled to a car. Everyone is entitled to a cell-phone. And of course - most importantly - everyone is entitled to CABLE TELEVISION.

Go down the poorest streets or the "ghettos" of america. There will be a DirecTV dish on each one. Yet every liberal in the world will say they are being oppressed. I guess there has to be a reason everyone is laughing at us...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
Flat vs. progressive taxation has nothing to do with loopholes and deductions, except that loopholes make a progressive tax system less progressive. Currently our tax code has tons of loopholes so that it IS regressive in places.

Under a flat tax without loopholes, the rich would (probably) pay more.
Under a progressive tax without loopholes, the rich would pay much more.

Under a flat tax without loopholes, a middle class person pays much more, which hurts them a lot.
Under a progressive tax without loopholes, the rich pick up more of the tax burden and the middle class person could pay less.

Under a flat tax with current loopholes, the rich would pay basically no taxes and the entire tax burden would fall on the middle-to-lower class, and potentially corporations. Libertopia!

It is also important to mention that income tax is not the only tax that people pay on their income. Boberfett's point not only required you to pretend that exemptions and loopholes don't exist, but it also required you to only look at income taxes and ignore FICA, which is silliness.
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
You guys do understand that Colbert doesn't actually believe the things he's saying, right? That he's a parody of Limbaugh and similar folks, and you're supposed to be laughing at how ridiculous the things he says are rather than because you agree with him?
 
Apr 27, 2012
10,086
58
86
A flat tax doesn't hurt the poor. It's just liberal idiots who want to hurt the rich.

We need to end the income tax and replace it with a national sales tax or flat tax.
 

wetech

Senior member
Jul 16, 2002
871
6
81
If your exemption is more generous, say $40k, you're now asking just 60% of America to pay the taxes for everyone, which 1) will create resentment among the 60% and 2) makes it much more beneficial to report $39k income since you join the taxpayers at $40k and get a big tax burden. You're creating a big hurdle to people trying to advance and a disincentive to earn more money unless you can earn a LOT more money, which is unlikely for most people.

that's not how exemptions work. If you exempt $40k of income, you're only taxed on the excess of $40k. You don't lose the exemption once you reach the threshold.
 
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