How does Intel justify disabling VT-d with K parts?

[Ichinisan]

I should have done my research

My new build is going to be way more expensive than I had anticipated. On Sunday, I drove 1.5 hours away to Microcenter and bought an Intel Haswell Core i7 4770K from Microcenter with an Asrock Z87E-ITX board. Before this, multiple people told me "get the K" and "you want to get the K." As an on-again/off-again enthusiast, I was pretty sure it was the right choice. I opened the box and put the CPU in the socket...but I haven't technically "installed" it because I haven't attached a cooler of any kind (I haven't even ordered the cooling solution, PSU, or RAM).

VT-d matters *way* more to me than overclocking. I probably wouldn't even bother to try an overclock. Do you think Microcenter would let me exchange it for a non-K part? It would take me 1.5 hours of driving to get there and I'd have to wait a few more days due to this ice storm.

Anyway, it bugs me to think that Intel disabled VT-d for no real reason. Is there an actual reason for it?

 

[piasabird]

Buy the CPU with functionality which is most important to you. Intel is a monopoly.

 

[Arkaign]

Sell the 4770K online. People will pay more than you paid for it, because MC deals are INSAAAANE.

And yes, that bugs me too, not sure why they do that. But there you have it.

Best deal for a non-OCer is actually the Xeons. They have even more features intact than the non-K i5/i7 models.

 

[sushiwarrior]

Why do you need VT-d? I wasn't aware there were many scenarios which you'd need it for.

 

[Arkaign]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116906

Boom.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Even with a VT-D enabled CPU, your mobo might not support it in its BIOS implementation.

What do you actually need VT-D for? Most hypervisors dont support it either.

 

[OCGuy]

You could probably sell that 4770k easily to someone who doesn't have access to Microcenter's insane CPU prices. Otherwise microcenter should easily swap it for you, I have returned opened and installed GPUs.

I think VT-d is a different market segment, as business applications typically should run on a OC'd processor anyway.

 

[Adul]

You need both BIOS and CPU support for VT-D. DO you plan to pass a video card to a guest VM? I know xenserver support that functionality, but not much else.

 

[Shivansps]

Even if there is a "VT-D" option on the bios it might not work.

 

[Ichinisan]

You need both BIOS and CPU support for VT-D. DO you plan to pass a video card to a guest VM? I know xenserver support that functionality, but not much else.

Yes. I will probably turn this system into a hackintosh (or OSX could even be the guest OS). I plan to do mobile app development and some gaming. Ideally, gaming would be done in Windows (as the guest OS) whenever possible.

Do the latest iMac systems have VT-d disabled? I wouldn't think so. Virtualization with Macs has been huge since long before OSX...so I can't imagine that VT-d or any other virtualization tech would be disabled. I don't want to think that my hackintosh is missing anything that a full Mac would have.

I read an anecdote somewhere stating that, among Z87 boards, Asrock seems to have the best support for VT-d.

 

[Ichinisan]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116906

Boom.

I always thought Xeons were way more expensive than their cousins. That's actually the same price as my 4770K from Microcenter.

So I'm guessing that will that run in any Z87 / LGA 1150 board? [edit] Looks like it does, according to Asrock: link

 

[itsmydamnation]

What do you actually need VT-D for? Most hypervisors dont support it either.

yeah only hyper-V and ESXi, not that anyone uses those........................

VT-D is the reason i bougth a 8350 instead of a 3770K for my server. Anyone wanting to do storage + VM on the same box needs VT-D.

 

[ShintaiDK]

yeah only hyper-V and ESXi, not that anyone uses those........................

VT-D is the reason i bougth a 8350 instead of a 3770K for my server. Anyone wanting to do storage + VM on the same box needs VT-D.

Hyper-V doesnt support VT-D. It does support SR-IOV however thats part of the VT-C. Then you can start to wonder if your setup supports that.

 

[EightySix Four]

Double post.

 

[EightySix Four]

Hyper-V doesnt support VT-D. It does support SR-IOV however thats part of the VT-C. Then you can start to wonder if your setup supports that.

I'm pretty sure SR-IOV in Hyper-V required VT-d... Are you sure? VT-c was just for network virtualization.

VFs alone aren’t sufficient to be able to securely allow a VM direct access to hardware. Traditional PCI Express devices generally “talk” in system physical address space (SPA) terms. As you may be aware, we don’t run guest operating systems in SPA, we run them in guest physical address space, or GPA. So there has to be something which translates (and ideally caches) addresses for DMA transfers. This is DMA remapping. In addition, for security reasons, we require hardware assisted interrupt remapping. For those who are want to learn more about the hardware side of this, see this page about VT-d for Intel, or this page for AMD-V for AMD. There are plenty of specs to read for the inquisitive reader!

From this point on in this series, I’m going to generically use the term IOMMU to refer to hardware capabilities which provide interrupt and DMA remapping.

Source.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I'm pretty sure SR-IOV in Hyper-V required VT-d... Are you sure? VT-c was just for network virtualization.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/network-adapters/virtualization.html

 

[EightySix Four]

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/network-adapters/virtualization.html

Ahh, but Microsoft's implementation of SR-IOV seems to require a full IOMMU implementation and thus VT-d. See the previous post.

 

[zir_blazer]

You may want to read this Thread.

On LGA 2011 you have K series Core i7s with both Unlocked Multiplier and VT-d (Except the first Stepping of Sandy-Bridge E, so you MUST pay attention to what Stepping you're getting on the older models), but then, you're forced to pay MORE for the Processor, MORE for the Motherboard, and you end with a Ivy Bridge-E instead of a more modern Haswell plus with a dinosaur Chipset.
Also, if you want VT-d for VGA Passthrough purposes, you will likely want the Haswell GPU too, so discard Xeons with no IGP. The closest to the Core i7 4770K is the Xeon E3-1245 V3.

yeah only hyper-V and ESXi, not that anyone uses those........................

VT-D is the reason i bougth a 8350 instead of a 3770K for my server. Anyone wanting to do storage + VM on the same box needs VT-D.

Xen also supports VT-d/AMD-Vi. I'm using it right now with VGA Passthrough to a WXP VM.

 

[chrisjames61]

I should have done my research

My new build is going to be way more expensive than I had anticipated. On Sunday, I drove 1.5 hours away to Microcenter and bought an Intel Haswell Core i7 4770K from Microcenter with an Asrock Z87E-ITX board. Before this, multiple people told me "get the K" and "you want to get the K." As an on-again/off-again enthusiast, I was pretty sure it was the right choice. I opened the box and put the CPU in the socket...but I haven't technically "installed" it because I haven't attached a cooler of any kind (I haven't even ordered the cooling solution, PSU, or RAM).

VT-d matters *way* more to me than overclocking. I probably wouldn't even bother to try an overclock. Do you think Microcenter would let me exchange it for a non-K part? It would take me 1.5 hours of driving to get there and I'd have to wait a few more days due to this ice storm.

Anyway, it bugs me to think that Intel disabled VT-d for no real reason. Is there an actual reason for it?

This is a slap in the face to consumers and a money grab. Its like the tiered versions of Windows. Both companies are gimping products out of sheer greed. At least now Microsoft is under pressure from both Apple and Google who do not charge for their software. As for Intel they should not sell locked retail processors nor disable VT-D.

Charge a premium for faster, better binned versions of said processors all day long. That would be acceptable. But its all about squeezing every last dime from consumers. If AMD could become more competitive things would change and quick. But Intel has like 100x the R&D budget, pays off OEM's etc...... So things won't change.

 

[zir_blazer]

This is a slap in the face to consumers and a money grab. Its like the tiered versions of Windows. Both companies are gimping products out of sheer greed. At least now Microsoft is under pressure from both Apple and Google who do not charge for their software. As for Intel they should not sell locked retail processors nor disable VT-D.

Charge a premium for faster, better binned versions of said processors all day long. That would be acceptable. But its all about squeezing every last dime from consumers. If AMD could become more competitive things would change and quick. But Intel has like 100x the R&D budget, pays off OEM's etc...... So things won't change.

On Windows you at least have the Ultimate version that got all the features (Or nearly all, doubt you can use Ultimate on a 8-way platform instead of being forced to go for a Datacenter edition or so). Intel doesn't give you something equivalent, you either have to choose what features sacrifice or jump to a different platform where you sacrifice another set of features.

Actually, the fact that Intel disabled VT-d on the so-called mainstream "enthusiast" parts makes you think what Intel thinks that enthusiast are. Maybe some sort of "MOAR MHZ" crowd, considering that for power users VT-d will look even more interesting as virtualization Software becomes more mature. You can pretty much ditch any type of backwards compatibility on a given OS, as if you want to use another OS, you just have to make another VM.

 

[Shivansps]

yeah only hyper-V and ESXi, not that anyone uses those........................

VT-D is the reason i bougth a 8350 instead of a 3770K for my server. Anyone wanting to do storage + VM on the same box needs VT-D.

AMD has the same system with IOMMU, you just cant really be sure its gona work at all using mainstream boards. The FX line its a little diferent as only the mainboard has to support it.

On Intel you need to go for a C222 + non-K Core I5.

On my part, i dont see how VT-D is a mainstream feature, i even suprised that any desktop cpu has it, its like Microsoft and the "server OS".

 

[jcniest5]

OP, not sure if it's every Micro Center, but the one here (Twin Cities/St. Louis Park, MN) has a 15-day return policy on motherboard and CPU. Check on your receipt. It will say whether they allow it or not.

 

[grimpr]

Yes. I will probably turn this system into a hackintosh (or OSX could even be the guest OS). I plan to do mobile app development and some gaming. Ideally, gaming would be done in Windows (as the guest OS) whenever possible.

Do the latest iMac systems have VT-d disabled? I wouldn't think so. Virtualization with Macs has been huge since long before OSX...so I can't imagine that VT-d or any other virtualization tech would be disabled. I don't want to think that my hackintosh is missing anything that a full Mac would have.

I read an anecdote somewhere stating that, among Z87 boards, Asrock seems to have the best support for VT-d.

I only build H87 chipset and Core i5/i7 non K chips with Haswell since i believe the K editions are deliberately crippled by Intel for marketing and artificial price segmentations, i simply refuse to pay more for crippled chips. The Asrock H87 boards are excellent, they provide VT-d and they come with Intel onboard nics.

 

[Torn Mind]

This is a slap in the face to consumers and a money grab. Its like the tiered versions of Windows. Both companies are gimping products out of sheer greed. At least now Microsoft is under pressure from both Apple and Google who do not charge for their software. As for Intel they should not sell locked retail processors nor disable VT-D.

Charge a premium for faster, better binned versions of said processors all day long. That would be acceptable. But its all about squeezing every last dime from consumers. If AMD could become more competitive things would change and quick. But Intel has like 100x the R&D budget, pays off OEM's etc...... So things won't change.

So out of the many buyers of desktops, just how many people actually use Vt-d? When you use the word consumers without any qualifiers, one must assume that means "all consumers", not just a handful. Yes, I don't see why Vt-d is disabled, but its loss is not this ubiquitous loss in utility you are making it out to be.

Most people don't realize that most people don't even know what Vt-d is, and most of those who do use them wouldn't be overclocking their system anyway, since I highly doubt you would install a RAID card and VM just to use it as your "native" system.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

VT-d is useful for passing through storage like in a NAS application.