How is this even possible: 88% of DC 8th graders can't read?

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.
.........<snip>

I couldn't agree more, especially the bold part. We can pay all teachers six figure salaries and it won't change anything. Remember the old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink if it doesn't want to"?

I came to the US with nothing, barely able to speak English but I believe in education <from my parents as a young child> as the ONLY way to improve myself financially.

Twenty years later, I am not doing so bad. Education/determination FTW.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Svnla

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.
.........<snip>

I couldn't agree more, especially the bold part. We can pay all teachers six figure salaries and it won't change anything. Remember the old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink if it doesn't want to"?

I came to the US with nothing, barely able to speak English but I believe in education <from my parents as a young child> as the ONLY way to improve myself financially.

Twenty years later, I am not doing so bad. Education/determination FTW.

I agree to an extent with that figure of speech and how it applies to this problem, but paying the teachers more money is not trying force all of the horses to drink. It is an attempt to convince the great number of horses who are straddling the fence that the water is worth drinking. It is also an attempt to improve the quality of the water that the cooperative horses are already drinking. No one wants to drink water that tastes like shit and many will refuse to do so just for that reason.

 

[NeoV]

you were reading Tom Sawyer in pre-school?

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: NeoV
you were reading Tom Sawyer in pre-school?

My first year in a public school was 2nd grade, so I was 7 or 8. The point was that my parents + a teacher grandmother taught me to read. There was never a shortage of books in the house, & weekly library trips meant an armload of new ones (until my mother capped it to our age since we couldn't keep track of how many we had out).

I'm not saying that every kid will turn into a voracious reader if their parents encourage it, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have some support in the home.

Viper GTS

 

[beyoku]

Proficient - Does anyone know what that word means? I could have swore that actually means advanced and not average? So only 12% are above average? Well how many are average? The OP's comments (and anyone else who comment based on the false definition of "Proficient") are misleading.

 

[beyoku]

Oh yeah, i forgot you guys grew up in DC.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: AeroEngy

Originally posted by: blackangst1
We could pay teachers 100k a year and they would be just as ineffective. Why? The have zero control, and must spend 80% of their time managing 20% of the students.

You are exactly right.

My wife works in an elementary school (lots of special needs and English as a second language children). She says that most of her time is spent dealing with behavioral issues (no separate classes for Special needs) and there is nothing they can do about it. The teachers hands are completely tied to enforce any kind of discipline. She has stated all she can do is send them to the Principal. The Principal's hands are tied also and can't really do anything but call the Parents and if the Parents don't care (which most unfortunately do not in here district) then nothing happens except a reinforcement that bad behavior is OK.

One student in her school even hit another teacher and there was no repercussions. The child was sent to the Principal's office and was back in class less than one hour later.

Also, the biggest complaint I hear from the teachers that I know about No Child Left Behind is that special needs children and not factored out of the cumulative score for the school. If a school has a lot of special needs children then there is no way they can get a passing grade. That just seems wrong.

What we are dealing with here is a multi tiered problem that no single answer will solve

Which I have qualified in other posts as well.

The government CAN do something about it in that they can

1. Remove special needs kids from the mainstream classroom, and
2. Give disciplinary power to the school.

That would solve at least half of these issues.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

I'd call that a load of horse shiznit. When those innocent unions and school boards stop protesting parents and legislatures that want to institute voucher programs let me know.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

I'd call that a load of horse shiznit. When those innocent unions and school boards stop protesting parents and legislatures that want to institute voucher programs let me know.

Another apologist for bad parenting in the name of an agenda. :roll:

Voucher programs are scams to steal public funds. You want to send your kid to a private school, pay for it yourself. Not with my taxdollars, thank you.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

I'd call that a load of horse shiznit. When those innocent unions and school boards stop protesting parents and legislatures that want to institute voucher programs let me know.

Heck, in the case of DC, that $25k a year they're spending on pupils can buy you an education at the same place Chelsea Clinton went.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

I 100% agree.

Of course there are some bad teachers, most teachers unions are a pain in the ass and are not concerned with the education of our children but the main problem begins at home.

Teacher's unions are incredibly concerned with education. But, you'll believe what you want. If only I could provide you with an electronic version of the piles of stuff I've received from the teacher's union which is completely geared toward improving my teaching - more education for me, and areas of concern which relate to dozens (hundreds?) of other issues which have a direct impact on the quality of education children receive.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

I'd call that a load of horse shiznit. When those innocent unions and school boards stop protesting parents and legislatures that want to institute voucher programs let me know.

Heck, in the case of DC, that $25k a year they're spending on pupils can buy you an education at the same place Chelsea Clinton went.

So why are you the socialist who thinks you should be entitled to get your child that kind of education with my taxdollars?

 

[AeroEngy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: AeroEngy

Originally posted by: blackangst1
We could pay teachers 100k a year and they would be just as ineffective. Why? The have zero control, and must spend 80% of their time managing 20% of the students.

You are exactly right.

My wife works in an elementary school (lots of special needs and English as a second language children). She says that most of her time is spent dealing with behavioral issues (no separate classes for Special needs) and there is nothing they can do about it. The teachers hands are completely tied to enforce any kind of discipline. She has stated all she can do is send them to the Principal. The Principal's hands are tied also and can't really do anything but call the Parents and if the Parents don't care (which most unfortunately do not in here district) then nothing happens except a reinforcement that bad behavior is OK.

One student in her school even hit another teacher and there was no repercussions. The child was sent to the Principal's office and was back in class less than one hour later.

Also, the biggest complaint I hear from the teachers that I know about No Child Left Behind is that special needs children and not factored out of the cumulative score for the school. If a school has a lot of special needs children then there is no way they can get a passing grade. That just seems wrong.

What we are dealing with here is a multi tiered problem that no single answer will solve

Which I have qualified in other posts as well.

The government CAN do something about it in that they can

1. Remove special needs kids from the mainstream classroom, and
2. Give disciplinary power to the school.

That would solve at least half of these issues.

Number 1 is what shocked me the most when my wife started working as a teacher. Hearing that kids with autism or other mental disabilities were in the regular class rooms causing disturbances all day just doesn't make any sense. It is difficult enough for a kid to pay attention to the teacher under normal situations. Then throw in a kid randomly yelling or running around the class room while their aid tries to contain them and it is impossible.

Don't get me wrong every kid no matter what deserves an education. But not at the expense of the rest of the class. The special needs kid IMO would be better off with a more tailored education in a separate room and the rest of the class would be better off with less disturbances.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

I'd call that a load of horse shiznit. When those innocent unions and school boards stop protesting parents and legislatures that want to institute voucher programs let me know.

Another apologist for bad parenting in the name of an agenda. :roll:

Voucher programs are scams to steal public funds. You want to send your kid to a private school, pay for it yourself. Not with my taxdollars, thank you.

who cares about your taxdollars. give them their tax dollars back.

 

[Phil21]

Really? Wow. A reading level of "8th grade" is absolutely pathetic to begin with, my 7 year old son is reading at or above that level - and I wouldn't classify him as an overacheiver in that area - just average. When I was in 8th grade.. ALL my classmates, save perhaps a VERY select few, were reading at supposed "college level". That 8th graders are not reading at "their level" (which is so pathetically low that it disgusts me it's set there) is inexcuseable.

I'd like to blame the teachers, but I really cannot. Teachers unions are horrible for many reasons, but I can't really point towards this isssue being something they caused.

100% the parents fault. If these kids gave two craps in school, they would pick this stuff up trivially. If their parents forced them to sit down, shut the F up, and learn - well, the world would be a different place.

I've been to *many* schools in my illustrious school career. Private school, rich white kid surburbia, inner city schools, and "alternative" schools. The private schools did a great job, the kids were engaged and the teachers in general very good. Suburbia wasn't too far behind to be honest - at least in the "AP level" classes. Teachers certainly were a lot more hit or miss - you had those that truly cared, and those just collecting their union paychecks. The difference was very easy to see as a student. All in all, parents were generally involved almost as much as the private schools. Then, you had inner city. What a complete waste of time. I was there in 11th grade, and they were doing stuff I had learned in 6th grade in a private school (basic algebra... English that a child could do, etc.), and kids were still failing. They were only failing because they were worthless human beings to be honest. The large majority of these future criminals were only in school because their friends were, and they existed only to try to cause the most mayhem possible - and make life hell for anyone actually trying to learn. In these schools, the teachers ranged from both good and paycheck-collectors, but the difference was that *all* of them were burnt out. I cannot say I blame them at all, I truly felt for some of these people you could see truly cared, but simply were hogtied by retarded school administration not allowing *any* form of real discipline. When all you do is babysit all day, it would get old quick.

The only way to fix schools is allow competition. Give out vouchers. Yes, that will mean the death of some worthless schools - so be it. Yes, the unionized teachers who simply collect paychecks will howl and scream because oh-my-god! compensation will slowly start to be tied to performance! The horror! The teachers who truly are good and do a great job, have nothing to worry about. They may not fit in one school and be fired for their "out of the box" thinking, but with enough competition they will easily find placement elsewhere for eventual higher pay. In this manner, the parents who DO care, will be able to send their kids to schools free of the future little criminals, and those that do not care - well, those kids are beyond saving anyways (if the kid truly is not a screw up, he'll be able to go to wherever he likes since his parents will sign whatever he/she tells them to - why would they care?).

Basically schools simply are WAY too focused on the lowest common denominator. They SHOULD be allowing those that have the ability and drive to excel, to do so! Those that have neither, should be treated accordingly as well. People are NOT created equal. Stop trying to force that ridiculous notion on everyone, all it does is hold the achievers back, and the non-achievers are simply subsidized and thus continue their rotten ways with no reason at all to change.

Ugh, this just makes me think of the work I have to do to get my son setup in a good school soon. Here, up to about 5th grade public schools do rather well, but after that options will have to be considered.

In the end though, this is 100% on the parents. If the schools are THAT horrible, find alternatives. They are there, if you are willing to sacrifice and look beyond what the government is "providing for you". Wake up, take charge of your own lives!

Rantmode off

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

I'd call that a load of horse shiznit. When those innocent unions and school boards stop protesting parents and legislatures that want to institute voucher programs let me know.

Heck, in the case of DC, that $25k a year they're spending on pupils can buy you an education at the same place Chelsea Clinton went.

So why are you the socialist who thinks you should be entitled to get your child that kind of education with my taxdollars?

I don't. I have no idea why we pay so much for education; property taxes where I live in NJ are absolutely ridiculous. People here leave as soon as their children graduate high school due to tax rates.

But if you're going to dump $25k per pupil, why should the city of DC get it when they're obviously wasting it?

 

[Phil21]

Sorry.. one other quick comment.

To those that put forth the anecdotes of kids not being punished in school for behavior problems. I agree, but there is NO REASON AT ALL it needs to be that way! NONE!

I absolutely agree it's due to worthless parents in 99.99% of the cases. Unfortunately school systems cannot control that. Darn.

However, the way different school systems handle behavioral issues are drastically different. And the results can be seen in the classroom.

Private school? You F up badly, you're expelled. No second chances. Period. Hit a teacher? You'd be lucky to not be charged with assault while the door hits you in the rear end. This is the way all schools *should* operate, but I do understand the government schools have their hands tied a bit more.

Suburban school? (seems to be the same in all suburbs I've heard of in this area). F up badly or repeatedly? You're expelled. Have fun in alternative school hell where you belong. Yep, they just gave up that on child. So what? If their parents care, they can enroll them next year at another school and drive them every day - just pray they don't F up again. Yes, there is more leniency than private school, but in the end it was what I would have pegged as "barely acceptable". If you screwed up, you knew there were real consequences no one was afraid to give you.

Inner city school? Worthless. Bunches of worthless and I mean worthless with a capital W administrators running that district/school. ANYTHING would go. You had to literally shoot someone to get expelled from school. Get in a fight? No problem, come back and start one next week. Get caught with drugs? Oh well, he needs "counseling". What a ludicrous bunch of crap. There is NO REASON it had to be that way! 100% on the school administrators (and by proxy voters) who enacted such absolutely braindead policies. Other public school systems get it MUCH more correct, why is it impossible for these supposed "at risk" schools? They even get more funding per student than anyone else!

About the only thing schools punish on these days is their stupid ass "one strike" weapons policies where you get expelled for bringing a pocket knife to school on accident. Obviously being *able* to expel students is NOT the problem. The administrators simply lack the political will to do so. Politically expedient to kick someone out? Happens every time.

I will say again - kick out 20% or so of the top troublemakers in these schools, and you will see an immediate and DRASTIC improvement in both test scores, teacher satisfaction, and (maybe my wishfullness here) parent participation.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

Nonsense. Maybe it feels like good rhetoric to you, but it just doesn't stand up logically. Full time students, with "the greatest teachers in the world", and no learning. You have to be really in love with your own rhetoric to believe this.

What's the truth? A bit of this and a bit of that. It's not about blaming the parents 100% and it's not about blaming the teachers 100%. I'm a parent. I agonize about my child not getting an adequate education because of the shortcomings of the system and the school, and about systemic limitations in those choices, for all. "Blame the parents" doesn't cut it with me. Of course it's a factor, a big one, but schools have the kids 100% for whole days for several years. The can and should be a lot better in what they try to do.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: andy04

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
and just 8 percent are proficient in math

Now who know who will be controlling the you know what on the streets!! :laugh: they will be the only ones who can count the money

They should bus in the asian students to the school district. That should boost test scores.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Svnla

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.
.........<snip>

I couldn't agree more, especially the bold part. We can pay all teachers six figure salaries and it won't change anything. Remember the old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink if it doesn't want to"?

I came to the US with nothing, barely able to speak English but I believe in education <from my parents as a young child> as the ONLY way to improve myself financially.

Twenty years later, I am not doing so bad. Education/determination FTW.

You give a teacher money and a stick and authority to use that stick you'd be surprised how you won't need discipline at home.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: JS80

I agree with Rhee. First line of success is home. But if home fails, and home won't change, teachers CAN make a difference. Most are incompetent or just don't give a shit.

Absolutely, and I will bet that they would care a whole lot more if there were other quality teachers lining up and eager to take their place. That won't happen without an attractive salary and benefits though.

That's why she's offering $100-130k salary in exchange to get rid of tenure.

I support the idea of better teacher pay as well, but I have to laugh at the sudden reversal of positions coming from your party yet again.

LOL @ VIC

Obama vows to double funding for charter schools
By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 25 minutes ago
Barack Obama promised Tuesday to double funding for charter schools, pay teachers based on performance and replace those who aren't up to the job, embracing education proposals normally more popular with Republican candidates.

The Democratic presidential nominee says both parties must work together to improve education in a pitch to independent voters in this presidential election swing state, where the fight over education reform has been the focus of a longtime partisan battle. It was the first of two days that Obama was spending on education policy.

Days after Republican candidate John McCain talked up the idea of school choice at the GOP convention, Obama proposed to give parents more options, too ? but not with a federal voucher program to pay for private schools, something McCain has supported. Instead, Obama seeks to create an array of new public schools.

Despite McCain's rhetoric, he is not proposing a federal voucher plan. Instead, he is proposing only to expand the voucher program in Washington, D.C.

The federal government spends about $200 million a year on charter schools, independently run institutions that receive public money. Obama's proposal would take that up to over $400 million.

Obama recognized that charter schools have been a source of debate in Ohio. Past Republican administrations used charter schools and private school vouchers to offer families a way out of troubled public schools. But Democratic Gov. Ted Strickland has been trying to scale back voucher programs to focus taxpayer money on more traditional public schools.

The Ohio Federation of Teachers has complained about the management of some charter schools, which has moved money away from the schools where its members work. The union has asked the Internal Revenue Service to investigate for-profit charter school operator White Hat Management for allegedly violating the terms of the tax-free status assigned to some of its schools.

"I'll work with all our nation's governors to hold all our charter schools accountable," Obama told an audience that included many educators and members of teachers unions. "Charter schools that are successful will get the support they need to grow. And charters that aren't will get shut down. I want experimentation, but I also want accountability."

While teachers unions typically oppose the idea of performance-based merit pay, Obama is embracing the idea along with demands that teachers who don't meet standards are removed from the classroom. Obama's campaign said teacher performance could be judged by peer review, student test results, classroom evaluations or other processes.

"One of the things we'll have to do, and this is something that I know sometimes is difficult, is teachers who are doing a poor job, they've got to get extra support," Obama said. "But if they don't improve, then they have be replaced. Because as good teachers are the first to tell you, if we're going to attract the best teachers to the profession, we can't settle for schools filled with teachers that aren't up to the job. That is something that we have to embrace."

Obama also is proposing a new $500 million matching fund for technology in the classroom.

At the same time he called for an end to partisan bickering over education, Obama accused Republican rival John McCain of failing to do anything to improve the quality of public education during nearly three decades in Washington. "Not one real proposal or law or initiative. Nothing," Obama said.

A new Obama television ad contends that the Arizona Republican voted to cut education funding and voted against accountability standards.

Later in the day, McCain's campaign rolled out a fresh televison ad that says Obama's only education accomplishment is "legislation to teach comprehensive sex education" to kindergartners." The ad raises the question "learning about sex before learning to read?" and calls Obama "wrong for your family."

Obama's campaign called the ad "shameful and downright perverse."

 

[Phil21]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

I'd call that a load of horse shiznit. When those innocent unions and school boards stop protesting parents and legislatures that want to institute voucher programs let me know.

Heck, in the case of DC, that $25k a year they're spending on pupils can buy you an education at the same place Chelsea Clinton went.

So why are you the socialist who thinks you should be entitled to get your child that kind of education with my taxdollars?

Are you serious? Let me not pay my "taxdollars" to the public school system, and I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to pay for private school myself! For that matter, I'm likely doing it regardless - I'm paying for your (future) children to go to public school *and* paying extra for my kids to go to private school. How is that fair?

Vouchers are no more, and no less, than getting what you already paid for back so you can choose how to spend it.

Now, I DO understand that everyone pays taxes for schools even without kids. This is another topic for another day, and I would agree (if it's your position) that it is utter BS that they are forced to do this.

However, why spend that $25k on a worthless school where a child won't learn anything useful, when you can take that *same* $25k and get one of the best educations in the world?

I agree that the $25k shouldn't exist either way. However, it currently does, so why can't we spend it where we get the most return for our money? Forcing it to be spent on employing worthless government employees seems rather silly to me, just because it happens to be funds from the public treasury. Since when do those funds mean less than others?

 

[1prophet]

Oldie but Goody, check out the school that spent over a billion dollars.

 

[ultra laser]

88% of DC 8th graders are dumb as hell. School doesn't raise IQs.

 

[MadRat]

Just give Maryland's Dept of Ed oversight over DC's education. Oh, wait...