Discussion How long till we lose democracy?

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,384
7,024
136
From https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/23/politics/republicans-extremists-worse-than-2012/index.html

It's worth reading this quote over the entire article..

An AEI poll this year found most Republicans agree "the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/politics/republicans-january-6-commission-senate/index.html

What alarms them are the evolving demographic, cultural and economic realities of 21st century America. The country continues to become less White, less Christian, less financially rewarding for workers without advanced technical skills or higher education.

The GOP voting base is increasingly dominated by older, blue-collar, evangelical Whites in economically lagging towns and rural areas. Conservative media outlets stoke nativist anger over their loss of status and power.

Democrats have drawn more popular votes in seven of the last eight presidential elections. So in key states like Georgia, using Trump's lies as fuel, Republicans now seek new election rules to help them win.

So the rather dismissed prognosis has become reality before our very eyes and can't be denied anymore.. so how long do we have before we lose democracy? And how much of it will truly be lost?

Will they just kick out Blue States which they think are unimaginable rat infested clusterfucks of people they don't want or they want to rule over all and everyone?
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,695
5,428
136
So the rather dismissed prognosis has become reality before our very eyes and can't be denied anymore.. so how long do we have before we lose democracy? And how much of it will truly be lost?

Four years and it will be gone. Look up the fall of the Weimar republic for a how it will happen preview.

Will they just kick out Blue States which they think are unimaginable rat infested clusterfucks of people they don't want or they want to rule over all and everyone?

They cannot kick out the blue states, they need our money. Make no mistake, if we could leave the union without violence we would do it in a second. The blue states bring in the $$$ and do not need the red states. Washington, Oregon, and CA could break off tomorrow, form the western coastal union, and be better for it. On the other coast you have a bunch of states in a similar position.

Not going to happen because it is not worth shooting people over. But when the neo-fascist state emerges in 2024, it will try to force the blue states into fascism with it. They will probably go along with it, because it will still be better then a civil war.


In the unlikely event it does turn into a civil war it will be unlike anything ever fought before, and more horrifying then we can imagine. Weaponized viruses targeting anyone Caucasian who has not received a covid vaccine would be quick and easy. Mass manufactured drones designed to kill anything between 97F to 99F. When desperation kicks in, morality is the first casualty.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,362
12,732
146
Will they just kick out Blue States which they think are unimaginable rat infested clusterfucks of people they don't want or they want to rule over all and everyone?
The red shitball moocher states cannot survive (in their current forms, anyway) without sucking on the Fed from their taxation of the more densely populated blue states.

Let the c*nts try to secede and pretend to be independent and/or self-sustaining. That'll be a good laugh.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,516
13,090
136
You have to stop the 5th column news media in your country, they are actively fueling the insurrection, pouring gasoline on the Big Lie and otherwise pitting common Joe vs common Joe. Fuck the Ruperts of the world.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
136
The next Holy Crusade?

Definitely is their holy crusade with Donald Trump as the messiah. That is why nay a republican in congress WILL EVER go along with anything Joe Biden nor the democrat agenda. Joe could toss a rope to Lindsey Graham stuck deep in a well, and once Lindsey climbed out to safety Lindsey would then call Joe an asshole for tossing in the rope. It's all soooo F-ed up. And experiencing the pandemic sure didn't help. The pandemic only feed into the division. When you have a party, people who actually believe ACTUALLY TRULY BELIEVE that Donald Trump is the messiah sent from god to the earth to save America, well... nothing any democrat can say or do or debate will change one mind on the other side. THIS is what we are up against. Donald Trump is indeed their god and messiah, and one never turns their back on a god. Just ask Liz Cheney about that....
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
136
PS. This is why I keep harping on the republicans in congress. They want Donald Trump back come 2024, and dare America elect Donald Trump back into office, well, you can kiss your America good bye forever. You see, if Donald Trump was allowed back in office, we would not have a president Trump, we wouldn't even have a dictator Trump, we would have the messiah Trump. Not a president, not a dictator, a messiah. A god like being. One can only imagine how a messiah Donald Trump would change your life, and not for the better.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,320
15,117
136
I don’t understand why the right would even say such a thing as this country has been ran on Republican values and policies for the last 40+ years.

Immigration hasn’t gotten easier or looser.
Taxes are still at their lowest point in history.
We’ve been in some sort of armed conflict almost the entire time to defend “American values”.
Our social safety net hasn’t grown.
Wages continue to be at record lows.
Companies continue to make record profits and by extension, the stock market is ridiculously high.
Abortion restrictions are the strictest they’ve ever been.
We have more guns than ever with fewer restrictions than ever.
We have more charter schools than ever.


Exactly what liberal policies have democrats enacted?
Gay people can now get married?
More people can legally buy weed?
Trans people can serve in the military?
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,516
13,090
136
I don’t understand why the right would even say such a thing as this country has been ran on Republican values and policies for the last 40+ years.

Immigration hasn’t gotten easier or looser.
Taxes are still at their lowest point in history.
We’ve been in some sort of armed conflict almost the entire time to defend “American values”.
Our social safety net hasn’t grown.
Wages continue to be at record lows.
Companies continue to make record profits and by extension, the stock market is ridiculously high.
Abortion restrictions are the strictest they’ve ever been.
We have more guns than ever with fewer restrictions than ever.
We have more charter schools than ever.


Exactly what liberal policies have democrats enacted?
Gay people can not get married?
More people can legally buy weed?
Trans people can serve in the military

Its obviously not about policies or a vision for the future. Obviously.
It is about power. It is about "power" trying to accumulate more "power" and the artifacts that this process produces is what you see in the transition gop->teaparty->trumpism, for one example. Power. In a setup where separation of powers is a hinderance for this process, the process it self will seek out to snuff the institution that cages it. It is its very defining nature.
 

ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
2,768
1,350
136
With the way the electoral college and Senate seats are set up, have we ever really been a democracy?

I understand what you are saying though. We certainly are in danger for the 2022 mid terms. With the constant propaganda by right wing media, redistricting to strongly favor Republican candidates, courts packed with right wing judges, and the undermining of the election process, the Dems could easily lose both Houses in congress. Even if they "win" it is most likely going to be the same kind of shitshow we have now with the "election was rigged" battles.

If the Repubs do take both (or even 1) house of congress , Trump will feel emboldened to run again, and might win in 2024. A truly frightening scenario I am sure the liberals in this forum will say is impossible, but otoh, did anyone believe that a large part of the R party and many members of congress would still believe (or are afraid to stand against it) the lie that the election was stolen?

Edit: "still" meaning after six months and innumerable court challenges and recounts, none of which have show significant irregularities.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,320
15,117
136
Its obviously not about policies or a vision for the future. Obviously.
It is about power. It is about "power" trying to accumulate more "power" and the artifacts that this process produces is what you see in the transition gop->teaparty->trumpism, for one example. Power. In a setup where separation of powers is a hinderance for this process, the process it self will seek out to snuff the institution that cages it. It is its very defining nature.

But they have the power and they continue to have the power.
 
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trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,668
7,165
136
So as it will always be from now 'til doomsday, the Dems must find ways to motivate their party members and independents to get off their asses come election days in numbers large enough to keep the Repubs from turning our democracy into a totalitarian one owned and operated by people like Trump and his enablers.

With the Repub party becoming (has become?) a minority one, their ony recourse is to cheat and to cheat often enough to overcome the will of the majority. Those restrictive laws the Repubs passed/are passing is a clear and blatant clarion call to the nation of what their intentions are for shaping the future form of governance they must have in order to grasp and permanently retain the reins of power they feel they rightfully deserve.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,679
6,195
126
I don’t understand why the right would even say such a thing as this country has been ran on Republican values and policies for the last 40+ years.

Immigration hasn’t gotten easier or looser.
Taxes are still at their lowest point in history.
We’ve been in some sort of armed conflict almost the entire time to defend “American values”.
Our social safety net hasn’t grown.
Wages continue to be at record lows.
Companies continue to make record profits and by extension, the stock market is ridiculously high.
Abortion restrictions are the strictest they’ve ever been.
We have more guns than ever with fewer restrictions than ever.
We have more charter schools than ever.


Exactly what liberal policies have democrats enacted?
Gay people can not get married?
More people can legally buy weed?
Trans people can serve in the military
Sounds like somebody doesn’t understand insanity even though you couldn’t have written what you just did if you actually didn’t? The wonderful thing about insanity is that it is contagious. It triggers one’s own.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,516
13,090
136
But they have the power and they continue to have the power.
“They”? Republicans? Congress critters? Joe? Donors? Ruperts? Who they?
A machinery of power accumulation is running full steam ahead... the person who flipped the switch is long gone... hence the no vision comment.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,679
6,195
126
Its obviously not about policies or a vision for the future. Obviously.
It is about power. It is about "power" trying to accumulate more "power" and the artifacts that this process produces is what you see in the transition gop->teaparty->trumpism, for one example. Power. In a setup where separation of powers is a hinderance for this process, the process it self will seek out to snuff the institution that cages it. It is its very defining nature.
It’s about preserving the ego status that comes with the pats on the backs conservatives give themselves via the delusions they manufacture that scream “ I am self important because I have power status and money” and to properly feel it you, the other, have to feel like shit. It is all about keeping self hate out of conscious awareness, by being a card carrying member of the ‘finest’ God-like herd. It’s Karen world.
 

gothuevos

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2010
2,020
1,727
136
2022 and 2024 are going to be terrible.

I think about The Man in the High Castle a lot... obviously a work of fiction but one thing they nailed (and history has proven this) is that it's quite easy to get people to go with a brutal regime's intentions.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,516
13,090
136
It’s about preserving the ego status that comes with the pats on the backs conservatives give themselves via the delusions they manufacture that scream “ I am self important because I have power status and money” and to properly feel it you, the other, have to feel like shit. It is all about keeping self hate out of conscious awareness, by being a card carrying member of the ‘finest’ God-like herd. It’s Karen world.
Yes!
And the money machine that attracts those people, ever growing money machine.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,679
6,195
126
Yes!
And the money machine that attracts those people, ever growing money machine.
Yup, the psycho and sociopath that have lost a moral center, unconstrained by compassion for others, their inner losses are so great
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Yup, the psycho and sociopath that have lost a moral center, unconstrained by compassion for others, their inner losses are so great

Who says they lost it? That would imply they were born with it. The role of nature vs nurture in sociopathy is debatable.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,679
6,195
126
Who says they lost it? That would imply they were born with it. The role of nature vs nurture in sociopathy is debatable.

From your link:

"It would be better if psychopathy was completely caused by nurture, because then we could more easily do something about it, conceivably. To the extent that genetic factors are at work then even if the problem of violent abuse is solved in some unlikely future utopia, there will still be mechanisms at work creating psychopaths among us. Not really an uplifting thought."

Sadly, I am all too aware of the cautionary advise that you offer here, and sufficiently so that I intentionally avoided the validity of the point you make here. I did so to avoid the difficult problem I have, in counter distinction to empiricists as to what it means to know anything.

In short, I believe that the modern science of psychology has as its origin the study of the laws of behavior that apply to people as they are, not as they may become. For me, this means that psychology is the science of the reactions of people who are actually asleep, robots obeying motivations they are completely unconscious and unaware are actually running their lives. In the East, according to a completely different kind of science, knowledge derived from self awareness, these unconscious force is sometimes referred to as the Commanding Self and to which I generally just call ego.

This then implies, at least for me, there are two kinds of knowledge, one based on knowing how sleeping man operates and one based on the psychology of the awake, what I would prefer to think of as the real knowing.

This, of course, puts me into all kinds of difficulty when talking with those who don't share a similar experience.

The byproduct of though is that for me the knowledge obtained and accepted as universal via ordinary psychology is collected and offered by people who themselves are asleep, a fact which renders their judgments unreliable in my opinion.

It leads to comments like the one I quoted above, "problem of violent abuse is solved in some unlikely future utopia".

No before yes, please. For me the unconscious motivation behind the statement above is that it will be never when I look at myself and find the problem of violence is that I will not ever allow the consciousness to arise in me that I am the source and cause of such violence. We are violent because we are asleep and we would rather die than awaken.

Of course the problem is utopian in a far of future for that reason but the actual experience of awakening for any one of us takes only a second. It is our unconscious acceptance and adjustment to a life of sleep that keeps form allowing us to hear anything from the world of the awake. We are deeply afraid to feel what we would feel if we allowed ourselves to feel what we actually do feel, almost infinite self hate.

So for me also, the recognition that there may actually be people who can't feel empathy genetically is the first thing we as sleepers will run to for cover as to why any hope for humanity, ourselves awakening, is pointless, hopeless, and a pipe dream.

We are all just as insane as any Trump conservative when it comes to denying reality.

So I am willing to admit that there may be folk who are actually not truly human among us, serial killers as a possible example, I would want to be careful that I don't go down the road that says humans are not different than ants.

I believe that what we call God is a reflection of what the conditions that exist in our universe made possible for us, that we are a mirror of a mirror in infinite regression such that the question of God or man's projection become completely meaningless.

Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou. The Lover and the Beloved are one and the same thing.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
From your link:

"It would be better if psychopathy was completely caused by nurture, because then we could more easily do something about it, conceivably. To the extent that genetic factors are at work then even if the problem of violent abuse is solved in some unlikely future utopia, there will still be mechanisms at work creating psychopaths among us. Not really an uplifting thought."

Sadly, I am all too aware of the cautionary advise that you offer here, and sufficiently so that I intentionally avoided the validity of the point you make here. I did so to avoid the difficult problem I have, in counter distinction to empiricists as to what it means to know anything.

In short, I believe that the modern science of psychology has as its origin the study of the laws of behavior that apply to people as they are, not as they may become. For me, this means that psychology is the science of the reactions of people who are actually asleep, robots obeying motivations they are completely unconscious and unaware are actually running their lives. In the East, according to a completely different kind of science, knowledge derived from self awareness, these unconscious force is sometimes referred to as the Commanding Self and to which I generally just call ego.

This then implies, at least for me, there are two kinds of knowledge, one based on knowing how sleeping man operates and one based on the psychology of the awake, what I would prefer to think of as the real knowing.

This, of course, puts me into all kinds of difficulty when talking with those who don't share a similar experience.

The byproduct of though is that for me the knowledge obtained and accepted as universal via ordinary psychology is collected and offered by people who themselves are asleep, a fact which renders their judgments unreliable in my opinion.

It leads to comments like the one I quoted above, "problem of violent abuse is solved in some unlikely future utopia".

No before yes, please. For me the unconscious motivation behind the statement above is that it will be never when I look at myself and find the problem of violence is that I will not ever allow the consciousness to arise in me that I am the source and cause of such violence. We are violent because we are asleep and we would rather die than awaken.

Of course the problem is utopian in a far of future for that reason but the actual experience of awakening for any one of us takes only a second. It is our unconscious acceptance and adjustment to a life of sleep that keeps form allowing us to hear anything from the world of the awake. We are deeply afraid to feel what we would feel if we allowed ourselves to feel what we actually do feel, almost infinite self hate.

So for me also, the recognition that there may actually be people who can't feel empathy genetically is the first thing we as sleepers will run to for cover as to why any hope for humanity, ourselves awakening, is pointless, hopeless, and a pipe dream.

We are all just as insane as any Trump conservative when it comes to denying reality.

So I am willing to admit that there may be folk who are actually not truly human among us, serial killers as a possible example, I would want to be careful that I don't go down the road that says humans are not different than ants.

I believe that what we call God is a reflection of what the conditions that exist in our universe made possible for us, that we are a mirror of a mirror in infinite regression such that the question of God or man's projection become completely meaningless.

Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou. The Lover and the Beloved are one and the same thing.

Well, the central point of the article is that a portion of the profile of a typical sociopath may be related to life experience. The part which involves "impulsiveness" and lacking self-control. But not the part that involves lacking empathy. They have found no experiential explanation for that.

The article suggests that those who become violent and find themselves in prison correlate pretty strongly with past abuse, while those who find themselves as CEO's of major corporations and those attending things like CPAC are the type who were not abused and have more self-control. But the common denominator is the lack of empathy.

There are not two or more kinds of "science." There is only one science. It is a method. A method which you follow to whatever end it takes you. You cannot dismiss the result because you prefer a different answer.

The idea that violence is entirely a learned behavior is belied by the fact that it was evolutionarily advantageous, and hence would have been selected as a inborn trait. Particularly for males who were out hunting and gathering.

The fact that both nature and nurture play a role in human behavior suggests that we can always be better, but it's unlikely we're ever going to be perfect. Which makes utopian scenarios pretty naïve.
 
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