How long until the American HP war begins to overrun European supercars?

[Demon-Xanth]

With the Ford GT having been 550HP, the Viper getting 600HP, and the Corvette undergoing tests with about 650HP under the hood. They seem to be making the high end ($250k+) cars seem less impressive. The F50 made 513HP, the Enzo 620HP, the Gallardo 520HP, the LP640 631HP, the SLR "722" at 650HP. Although these make roughly 3x more HP that anyone needs on the street, it seems less impressive given that $100k cars are packing that much.

That being said, how long until the diesel torque war starts causing broken trailer hitches?

 

[overst33r]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
With the Ford GT having been 550HP, the Viper getting 600HP, and the Corvette undergoing tests with about 650HP under the hood. They seem to be making the high end ($250k+) cars seem less impressive. The F50 made 513HP, the Enzo 620HP, the Gallardo 520HP, the LP640 631HP, the SLR "722" at 650HP. Although these make roughly 3x more HP that anyone needs on the street, it seems less impressive given that $100k cars are packing that much.

That being said, how long until the diesel torque war starts causing broken trailer hitches?

I feel the need to mention that the Enzo Ferrari has 660hp

...not that it makes a difference...

then there is the old saying: "power is nothing without control"

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: mariok2006
I feel the need to mention that the Enzo Ferrari has 660hp

...not that it makes a difference...

then there is the old saying: "power is nothing without control"

There's also a saying "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go"

But I can also bring in cars like the Saleen S7 which has 750HP and a real racing pedegree. But that's in the $200k range itself.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Saleen S7 TT

 

[Fenixgoon]

one reason europeans excel in the HP wars is because they have small, high-revving engines, especially on the supercars. The LS7 has a 7000rpm redline, right? I know lambos go to 8 or 9k for redline, but the engine is only a 5.0 or 5.2L as opposed to 7.0L

 

[kumanchu]

i think that trying to compare cars by hp alone is a bit unfair. though the american sports cars have been closing the gap; and the z06 is definately the best bang for the buck. but there is something to be said about refinement; like i reallly _really_ like driving my friend's nsx.

 

[overst33r]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: mariok2006
I feel the need to mention that the Enzo Ferrari has 660hp

...not that it makes a difference...

then there is the old saying: "power is nothing without control"

There's also a saying "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go"

But I can also bring in cars like the Saleen S7 which has 750HP and a real racing pedegree. But that's in the $200k range itself.

Yeah, the S7 TT has phenomenal performance and racing pedigree. Then again, in its street trim, I hear you cannot put the pedal to the metal until 3rd gear, the amount of torque on that thing is nuts...

 

[jtvang125]

It's not always about power.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
one reason europeans excel in the HP wars is because they have small, high-revving engines, especially on the supercars. The LS7 has a 7000rpm redline, right? I know lambos go to 8 or 9k for redline, but the engine is only a 5.0 or 5.2L as opposed to 7.0L

Not really.

To make HP with a smaller engine, you HAVE to rev it higher. And as a result, you'll have less torque, so you'll need lots of gearing to get it moving.

Put that LS7 7.0 and the Lambo engine in identical cars of the same weight, and you LS7 car will run circles around it. Torque rules.

Not to mention, the LS7 will last longer and give less trouble than any 9000 rpm engine.

 

[GoatMonkey]

In response to the original question, I think it's a matter of lightweight material like carbon fiber becoming cheap enough to build in mainstream cars that will make the difference. Once that happens the supercar manufacturers are going to have a hard time.

 

[overst33r]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
one reason europeans excel in the HP wars is because they have small, high-revving engines, especially on the supercars. The LS7 has a 7000rpm redline, right? I know lambos go to 8 or 9k for redline, but the engine is only a 5.0 or 5.2L as opposed to 7.0L

Not really.

To make HP with a smaller engine, you HAVE to rev it higher. And as a result, you'll have less torque, so you'll need lots of gearing to get it moving.

Put that LS7 7.0 and the Lambo engine in identical cars of the same weight, and you LS7 car will run circles around it. Torque rules.

Not to mention, the LS7 will last longer and give less trouble than any 9000 rpm engine.

That's quite a bold statement... you have any factual information to back that up?

From a reliability standpoint, I'd pick an S2000 over a Corvette 6 out of 7 times...

The Corvette does have a simpler and more robust engine design, but reality =/ theory.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: mariok2006To make HP with a smaller engine, you HAVE to rev it higher. And as a result, you'll have less torque, so you'll need lots of gearing to get it moving.

Put that LS7 7.0 and the Lambo engine in identical cars of the same weight, and you LS7 car will run circles around it. Torque rules.

Not to mention, the LS7 will last longer and give less trouble than any 9000 rpm engine.

That's quite a bold statement... you have any factual information to back that up?

From a reliability standpoint, I'd pick an S2000 over a Corvette 6 out of 7 times...

The Corvette does have a simpler and more robust engine design, but reality =/ theory.[/quote]
How many high-mileage, 8-9000 rpm exotic engined cars do you see?
It's well known that those types of cars spend lots of time in the shop. Very temperamental.
Probably will never see any of the new Vettes with 120k on them, either, but you'll see lots of them with 50-60k. Doubt you'll get that much life from any Lambo without some major problems along the way.

And it's just common sense that you'll get longer life from a powerful engine that is larger and revs lower. The higher you rev, the more stress on the internals.

 

[Summitdrinker]

well a freind of mine had twin turbo Porsche, a while back, I think it was a 2000 or 2001, he didn't have it very long, every time he drove it it went to the shop for repairs.................

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
one reason europeans excel in the HP wars is because they have small, high-revving engines, especially on the supercars. The LS7 has a 7000rpm redline, right? I know lambos go to 8 or 9k for redline, but the engine is only a 5.0 or 5.2L as opposed to 7.0L

Not really.

To make HP with a smaller engine, you HAVE to rev it higher. And as a result, you'll have less torque, so you'll need lots of gearing to get it moving.

Put that LS7 7.0 and the Lambo engine in identical cars of the same weight, and you LS7 car will run circles around it. Torque rules.

Not to mention, the LS7 will last longer and give less trouble than any 9000 rpm engine.

that's what i'm saying - you can get any HP you want as long as you can rev high enough. so a supercar with a small, high revving engine will produce uber HP, but might not have that much torque.

i would gladly take an LS7

 

[overst33r]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: mariok2006To make HP with a smaller engine, you HAVE to rev it higher. And as a result, you'll have less torque, so you'll need lots of gearing to get it moving.

Put that LS7 7.0 and the Lambo engine in identical cars of the same weight, and you LS7 car will run circles around it. Torque rules.

Not to mention, the LS7 will last longer and give less trouble than any 9000 rpm engine.

That's quite a bold statement... you have any factual information to back that up?

From a reliability standpoint, I'd pick an S2000 over a Corvette 6 out of 7 times...

The Corvette does have a simpler and more robust engine design, but reality =/ theory.

How many high-mileage, 8-9000 rpm exotic engined cars do you see?
It's well known that those types of cars spend lots of time in the shop. Very temperamental.
Probably will never see any of the new Vettes with 120k on them, either, but you'll see lots of them with 50-60k. Doubt you'll get that much life from any Lambo without some major problems along the way.

And it's just common sense that you'll get longer life from a powerful engine that is larger and revs lower. The higher you rev, the more stress on the internals.


[/quote]

Well, you said ANY 9000rpm engine, not exotic. And yes, I agree with your theory about engine stress, but like i said sometimes theory =/ reality, there are quite a few 200k S2000 and tons of 100k+ miles. Didn't you get the memo, the laws of physics do not apply to Honda.

 

[SketchMaster]

I won't start getting excited until I can walk down to the auto dealer and buy an Aerial Atom-like car for under 30K

 

[Arkaign]

Veyron

That is all..

Oh, and tuning will leapfrog American Muscle into the stratosphere, look up the 1700hp Viper if you dare.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: SketchMaster
I won't start getting excited until I can walk down to the auto dealer and buy an Aerial Atom-like car for under 30K

My cousin got a brand new 400HP GTO for under $28k. Quit being picky

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Veyron

That is all..

Oh, and tuning will leapfrog American Muscle into the stratosphere, look up the 1700hp Viper if you dare.

the veyron, i think, shouldn't be counted because VW kept throwing money at it so it'd be done and they could claim to own the fastest car in the world. plus it uses 4 turbos and a W 16. they even sell it at a loss, IIRC. try putting 4 turbos on a reinforced viper engine and see how much torque/hp you produce then!

yeah, tuning always takes the numbers up there. that viper was insane :Q

 

[Arkaign]

Eh, they make Veyrons, and they're godly, so they count. I don't think you can count them against the more run-of-the-mill US sports cars, but someday they might make a Saleen S8 or something that is in that league right off the showroom floor, so to speak.

Yep, that Viper is nuts. Shows the true potential of the platform, I think!

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: mariok2006
Well, you said ANY 9000rpm engine, not exotic. And yes, I agree with your theory about engine stress, but like i said sometimes theory =/ reality, there are quite a few 200k S2000 and tons of 100k+ miles. Didn't you get the memo, the laws of physics do not apply to Honda.

We're talking US HP vs Euros "supercars". It's implied that we're talking exotic.

And the S2000 almost qualifies...but it's max rpm is 8k, and it only makes 237hp.

That's not Supercar power there. They won't hold a candle to Vettes and Lambos.

Nice cars, sure. Not "Super".

Let's see them make 5-600hp out of that engine and keep it together for lots of miles. Ain't gonna happen.
Heck, they make the rice bikes that can turn 12-14000 rpms. But they don't make 600hp.

And yeah, I realize that logic and physics law doesn't apply to Honda.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: mariok2006

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: mariok2006To make HP with a smaller engine, you HAVE to rev it higher. And as a result, you'll have less torque, so you'll need lots of gearing to get it moving.

Put that LS7 7.0 and the Lambo engine in identical cars of the same weight, and you LS7 car will run circles around it. Torque rules.

Not to mention, the LS7 will last longer and give less trouble than any 9000 rpm engine.

That's quite a bold statement... you have any factual information to back that up?

From a reliability standpoint, I'd pick an S2000 over a Corvette 6 out of 7 times...

The Corvette does have a simpler and more robust engine design, but reality =/ theory.

How many high-mileage, 8-9000 rpm exotic engined cars do you see?
It's well known that those types of cars spend lots of time in the shop. Very temperamental.
Probably will never see any of the new Vettes with 120k on them, either, but you'll see lots of them with 50-60k. Doubt you'll get that much life from any Lambo without some major problems along the way.

And it's just common sense that you'll get longer life from a powerful engine that is larger and revs lower. The higher you rev, the more stress on the internals.

Well, you said ANY 9000rpm engine, not exotic. And yes, I agree with your theory about engine stress, but like i said sometimes theory =/ reality, there are quite a few 200k S2000 and tons of 100k+ miles. Didn't you get the memo, the laws of physics do not apply to Honda. [/quote]
It's no magic. A S2K would have to rev its engine about 3 times faster to keep up with a Z06. Most of the time, an S2K driver just drives it as a Miata, and so doesn't rev it to redline to get the benefit of the peak horsepower, and so spares the wear on the engine so it lasts longer. The Corvette driver on the other hand has massive torque on tap at any and all rpms. An LS7 is pretty much idling when Z06 is at highway speeds in top gear, that's how much low end torque it has.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: mariok2006
Well, you said ANY 9000rpm engine, not exotic. And yes, I agree with your theory about engine stress, but like i said sometimes theory =/ reality, there are quite a few 200k S2000 and tons of 100k+ miles. Didn't you get the memo, the laws of physics do not apply to Honda.

We're talking US HP vs Euros "supercars". It's implied that we're talking exotic.

And the S2000 almost qualifies...but it's max rpm is 8k, and it only makes 237hp.

That's not Supercar power there. They won't hold a candle to Vettes and Lambos.

Nice cars, sure. Not "Super".

Let's see them make 5-600hp out of that engine and keep it together for lots of miles. Ain't gonna happen.
Heck, they make the rice bikes that can turn 12-14000 rpms. But they don't make 600hp.

And yeah, I realize that logic and physics law doesn't apply to Honda.

200hp on a 400lb bike does wonders though

literbikes ftw!

 

[bigdog1218]

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey
In response to the original question, I think it's a matter of lightweight material like carbon fiber becoming cheap enough to build in mainstream cars that will make the difference. Once that happens the supercar manufacturers are going to have a hard time.

Have a hard time at what? No one who can afford a Lambo or Ferrari is going to buy a Honda or Corvette to save a few bucks.

 

[GoatMonkey]

They are going to have a hard time differentiating themselves. Is it going to be just a matter of styling and exclusivity if the performance is no better?

There are a lot of cheap high horsepower engines. It's really a matter of being able to stick that powerful engine into something that is light weight and meets safety regulations. A big part of that equation is the exotic materials used to manufacture the supercars, like carbon fiber and aluminum. It's not cheap to put together a car made from those materials yet. Once it is, the exotics better watch out.

The Corvette Z06 is actually one of the first to head in that direction. It seems like I read that Chevrolet is using a pretty large composite piece to save somewhere around 300 pounds, or something like that (the number is probably not accurate). The point is that the Z06 is not just a 500hp Corvette, they went through weight saving measures with some exotic materials to save weight. That says to me that the cost of making pieces out of those materials has gone down. Performance wise, the Z06 is spitting distance to a Ferrari F430, that's pretty amazing all things considered (the cost, probably much better reliability, a large network of dealers who can fix it if it does break, warranty coverage, better fuel economy, etc.).

Also, the big development push of hybrid cars (or high mpg cars in general) is driving down the price of light weight materials for use in cars.