Discussion How many illegals do you think live in America?

[Svnla]

I've given you plenty of straight answers.

Please define these groups you are putting people into categories as, Who is group X, Y and Z?

No, you haven't.

Again. Yes or No on this question.(let start with this one)...".should everyone follow rules/laws equally or pay the consequence" (in this case, let say immigration rules and laws)?

You can put whatever you want onto group x, y, z, or a, b, c, d...and so on.

 

[Svnla]

Are you sure you don't just have a lust for cruelty?

How doesn't years of Hard Work, Paying Taxes, receiving no Government Assistance, Paying Bills, being Law Biding not become "American".

Again...did you see my post above? Here it is again...so anyone that are "living here and contributing in manners for years" can pick and choose any rule or law to follow? Yes or No? Breaking rules/laws to get here/overstay here = law abiding now? That's new to me.

Where or what I said in my posts above = cruelty? Feel free to quote my OWN words in full context and show me as "cruelty".

 

[sandorski]

What Consequence and why does it seem to imply Fear.

 

[MrSquished]

No, you haven't.

Again. Yes or No on this question.(let start with this one)...".should everyone follow rules/laws equally or pay the consequence"

You can put whatever you want onto group x, y, z, or a, b, c, d...and so on.

Yes I have. Just because you think the entire world is black and white, with zero gradation, when it isn't, there are many shades of gray in fact - that's not my problem, it's yours.

 

[sandorski]

Again...did you see my post above? Here it is again...so anyone that are "living here and contributing in manners for years" can pick and choose any rule or law to follow? Yes or No? Breaking rules/laws to get here/overstay here = law abiding now? That's new to me.

Does it matter to you what Qualities a Person has?

 

[Svnla]

Yes I have. Just because you think the entire world is black and white, with zero gradation, when it isn't, there are many shades of gray in fact - that's not my problem, it's yours.

I did look again on your posts and so far, you haven't give me any straight yes or no answer to any of my questions. Feel free to quote your answer to show me.

I want to treat everyone EQUALLY under the rules/laws (in this case immigration). Hey, you want to make excuses and that's on you.

 

[Svnla]

Does it matter to you what Qualities a Person has?

You answer my question first. Yes or No and I will give your my answer to your question.

 

[MrSquished]

Again...did you see my post above? Here it is again...so anyone that are "living here and contributing in manners for years" can pick and choose any rule or law to follow? Yes or No? Breaking rules/laws to get here/overstay here = law abiding now? That's new to me.

You think because someone has empathy for folks that break an immigration law means they have to be ok with them breaking any other law? That's just insanely stupid.

Your critical thinking ability is nil.

 

[sandorski]

You answer my question first. Yes or No and I will give your my answer to your question.

Yes

 

[Svnla]

You think because someone has empathy for folks that break an immigration law means they have to be ok with them breaking any other law? That's just insanely stupid.

Your critical thinking ability is nil.

Are you going to give a straight yes or no answer or you are going to continue to dance around with my bullcrap and excuses?

 

[Svnla]

Yes

Let me fully and completely understand you. You are saying people that are "living here and contributing in manners for years" can pick and choose any rule or law to follow...in this case..immigration rules and laws. Correct?

To answer your question of "Does it matter to you what Qualities a Person has". As another person posted above. I totally understand why folks breaking the rules/laws to get here/stay here but they can't cut ahead of the line while expect others to stay in the line. Fair is fair for ALL. I agreed somewhat with another poster's suggestion above about paying fines/penalties and come out of the shadow and keep their noses clean and start at the back of the line and work their way up. Not another blanket amnesty.

 

[IronWing]

Svnla, being the stickler for treating everyone the same under law, surely must support doing away with the current immigration scheme that renders it impossible for many people to even be considered for legal immigration based on the whims of the President?

 

[ponyo]

Are you sure you don't just have a lust for cruelty?

How doesn't years of Hard Work, Paying Taxes, receiving no Government Assistance, Paying Bills, being Law Biding not become "American".

I'll give you that many work extremely hard but many don't pay taxes other than sales tax on goods they purchase. They receive lot of government assistance. How you think all these babies are born? Emergency Medicaid and other government assistance. They pay bills but that's requirement to live anywhere in the world. Most are law biding but there are decent number of criminals and troublemakers in the mix too.

And @Mai72 is crazy talking about most have 2-4 year degrees. Most haven't even finished grade school let alone any type of college. If they had education, you think they would risk their lives and come here illegally? Most were dirt poor and came here to escape war, poverty, and violent crimes in their country. US is the land of opportunity and one of the few countries where if you work hard and get lucky, you can achieve great success.

 

[Svnla]

Svnla, being the stickler for treating everyone the same under law, surely must support doing away with the current immigration scheme that renders it impossible for many people to even be considered for legal immigration based on the whims of the President?

Go to P+N and feel free to quote any of my post that I was in anyway support of any of DT's executive orders, particular about legal immigration.

I blame Congress that continues to kick the can down the road for years and years.

 

[MrSquished]

Are you going to give a straight yes or no answer or you are going to continue to dance around with my bullcrap and excuses?

I am answering your question but it's going way over your head. Being malleable on one type of infraction based upon certain circumstances does not mean you automatically give leeway on all infractions. THIS IS NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

Life is not completely black and white in many instances and your entire premise, thus, is fucking stupid.

 

[Svnla]

I am answering your question but it's going way over your head. Being malleable on one type of infraction based upon certain circumstances does not mean you automatically give leeway on all infractions. THIS IS NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

Life is not completely black and white in many instances and your entire premise, thus, is fucking stupid.

You are making excuses and I am not. Let me try it this way, why should anyone even bother to follow immigration rules and laws if they can just sneak in/over stay their visas....stay below the radar for a few years, be productive = home free. Screw those fools that are so dumb to wait for years and years and spend a fortune to follow the rules, right? Suckers, right?

So what now? More insult and name calling?

 

[IronWing]

Go to P+N and feel free to quote any of my post that I was in anyway support of any of DT's executive orders, particular about legal immigration.

It's not just Trump. Every President gets to tilt the playing field in favor/against various groups of would be immigrants. Currently, and for the past two decades or so, if you are a Mexican national and aren't rich or already have family in the US, it is simply impossible to immigrate here legally. The quota is already filled with family members. Saying folks should do it legally when there is no way for them to come here legally is disingenuous. Yet Americans employers are waving those dollars saying, "Come hither!" and they come.

 

[Svnla]

It's not just Trump. Every President gets to tilt the playing field in favor/against various groups of would be immigrants. Currently, and for the past two decades or so, if you are a Mexican national and aren't rich or already have family in the US, it is simply impossible to immigrate here legally. The quota is already filled with family members. Saying folks should do it legally when there is no way for them to come here legally is disingenuous. Yet Americans employers are waving those dollars saying, "Come hither!" and they come.

If you want to say the current immigration rules and laws system is a HUGE mess. No argue from me. I totally agreed. See what I posted above about in agreement with suggestion of heavy fine for anyone employed ILLEGALS from another poster..

But you can't just sneak in or overstay your visas and then expect to get amnesty/home free. What about million and million that are waiting for years? Shall they sneak in/over stay their visas too because they "aren't rich or already have family in the US"?

One more thing. As I said before, I am more inclined with how Australia and Canada are handling their immigration with the "points" system.

 

[MrSquished]

You are making excuses and I am not. Let me try it this way, why should anyone even bother to follow immigration rules and laws if they can just sneak in/over stay their visas....stay below the radar for a few years, be productive = home free.

So what now? More insult and name calling?

I didn't say we should eliminate any penalties for illegal immigration permanently by creating a path to citizenship for those that are here now. You are also ignoring that there are many benefits to being here legally vs illegally. You are also ignoring that we have meddled in these countries' (Central and South America) political and economic business for decades, often to the detriment of the people for the benefit of our corporations or other political goals, thus being responsible for part of this problem on some level.

It's just a terrible argument to say that if you are for being flexible on those here illegally now means you think they should be able to go out and break any law, which would include things like murder and assault and rape, etc...

 

[Svnla]

I didn't say we should eliminate any penalties for illegal immigration permanently by creating a path to citizenship for those that are here now. You are also ignoring that there are many benefits to being here legally vs illegally. You are also ignoring that we have meddled in these countries' political and economic business for decades, often to the detriment of the people for the benefit of our corporations or other political goals, thus being responsible for part of this problem on some level.

It's just a terrible argument to say that if you are for being flexible on those here illegally now means you think they should be able to go out and break any law, which would include things like murder and assault and rape, etc...

Ok, I will play your games.

So folks from Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. can ignore immigration rules/laws, right? Because the US messed up/meddled their countries for years. See I can make excuses too. So easy.

Benefits? Then tell me a country or two that have open door to anyone to come. I don't know any that are "flexible on those here illegally".

And no, I am not saying breaking immigration rules = murder, assault, rape (expressed or implied) as you implied. Nice try tho.

 

[highland145]

Ok, I will play your games.

So folks from Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. can ignore immigration rules/laws, right? Because the US messed up/meddled their countries for years. See I can make excuses too. So easy.

Benefits? Then tell me a country or two that have open door to anyone to come. I don't know any.

France invited in a bunch of Muslims.

So there.

 

[Svnla]

France invited in a bunch of Muslims.

So there.

In the 10 of million and up range?

 

[MrSquished]

Ok, I will play your games.

So folks from Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. can ignore immigration rules/laws, right? Because the US messed up/meddled their countries for years. See I can make excuses too. So easy.

Benefits? Then tell me a country or two that have open door to anyone to come. I don't know any.

I find it amusing you think having a discussion with relevant facts is playing games, but whatever.

I didn't say I think folks should just ignore immigration rules willy nilly and for all time. Please quote me on that. I said we should find a way to deal with the millions here now that is empathetic and realistic that does not involved rounding them up into concentration camps and deporting them, which is pretty messed up in my mind. After all, it's not like they came here to live on the streets, they came here because much wealthier established Americans gave them great incentives to do so. Most of them have some sort of established life here, and it would be better to integrate them into the legal labor market vs villifying them.

As far as Iraq and Vietnam, yes, I think we do owe it to some of these countries with things like asylum programs. Our invasions of Iraq and Vietnam were completely unjust. To lump in Korea and Afghanistan into those wars is foolish.

 

[BoomerD]

Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking.

Let’s say I break into your house. Let’s say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, ‘No! I like it here. It’s better than my house. I’ve made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I’ve done all the things you don’t like to do. I’m hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).’

According to the protesters:

You are Required to let me stay in your house
You are Required to feed me
You are Required to add me to your family’s insurance plan
You are Required to educate my kids
You are Required to provide other benefits to me & to my family

(my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.

It’s only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I’m just trying to better myself. I’m a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house And what a deal it is for me!!!

I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.

 

[Svnla]

I find it amusing you think having a discussion with relevant facts is playing games, but whatever.

I didn't say I think folks should just ignore immigration rules willy nilly and for all time. Please quote me on that. I said we should find a way to deal with the millions here now that is empathetic and realistic that does not involved rounding them up into concentration camps and deporting them, which is pretty messed up in my mind. After all, it's not like they came here to live on the streets, they came here because much wealthier established Americans gave them great incentives to do so. Most of them have some sort of established life here, and it would be better to integrate them into the legal labor market vs villifying them.

As far as Iraq and Vietnam, yes, I think we do owe it to some of these countries with things like asylum programs. Our invasions of Iraq and Vietnam were completely unjust. To lump in Korea and Afghanistan into those wars is foolish.

As I said before and I will say it again. I am ok with the suggestions that folks that are here ILLEGALLY to start out clean, pay penalty, be productive, no freebies, keep their noses clean, and get to the back of the line and start from there, NOT just another blanket amnesty as we did in the mid 80's . Again, as I said before, they broke the rule to get here/stay here so they have no one to blame but themselves for any consequence of their own actions.

Koreans (especially the North) can say the US bombed and killed many of them and destroyed their cities/land. Afghan folks can say the same. Why their excuses are not as valid as those from the south of the border? I don't remember the US ever bombed or killed anyone in Central or South America as much as it did in Korea and Afghan.

I haven't start with folks from Laos, Cambodia, and so on and on. Folks from the Philippines can blame the US for being the colony master for years too. Excuses are easy to make.