How many squadrons of F22 jets would it take to win WW2's air theatre?

[rudder]

Originally posted by: leftyman
what about spare parts, maintenance, specific fuel, pilot training? All you need to do to ground the F22's is bomb the concrete runways that they would need.

The runways used by the f22 could be a long way from the enemy. The F22 could pick off any incoming attacking planes, run out of ammo, land, drink some coffee, go pick off some more incoming planes.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: halik
This has to be the dumbest thread yet...

Yet Hollywood made a movie with a similar concept in mind 27 years ago. Go figure...

IT'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN!

Not only an awesome song, it's an awesome movie too!

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
unfortunately, the gun on the F22 doesn't have enough rounds to make it very good against massive bomber formations. an F15 would be better. heck, an F86 or a MiG-15 would be better. although, the F15 could probably drop a bomber in 4 or 5 shots.

Actually, the A-10 would make a good plane:

P51 vs. A10:
Top speed
435MPH vs. 510MPH
Service Cieling:
41,900 vs. 45000ft
Rate of climb:
3200ft/min vs. 6000ft/min
Range:
1650 miles w/ external tanks vs. 2580 miles
Ammo:
2140 50 cal rounds vs. 1350 30mm rounds

The A10 unlike the other planes is more robust, not as reliant on electronics, and the gun could cut a bomber in half.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Originally posted by: halik
This has to be the dumbest thread yet...

Another one will be along shortly...

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Braznor

Originally posted by: halik
This has to be the dumbest thread yet...

HA HA HA

I love posting drunk on ATOT

well that explains it then. been there done that

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
I would agree, but that one F22 would have to land to rearm regularly. As kickass are the F22 is, it doesn't boast infinite ammo.

If you suck at flying just say "sorryLOLbai" and jump out. You can always respawn and laugh as you drive over mad fools in a tank. They don't have complicated stuff like up and down. Just left, right and MAKEBANGNOW.

 

[sierrita]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: ElFenix
unfortunately, the gun on the F22 doesn't have enough rounds to make it very good against massive bomber formations. an F15 would be better. heck, an F86 or a MiG-15 would be better. although, the F15 could probably drop a bomber in 4 or 5 shots.

Actually, the A-10 would make a good plane:

P51 vs. A10:
Top speed
435MPH vs. 510MPH
Service Cieling:
41,900 vs. 45000ft
Rate of climb:
3200ft/min vs. 6000ft/min
Range:
1650 miles w/ external tanks vs. 2580 miles
Ammo:
2140 50 cal rounds vs. 1350 30mm rounds

The A10 unlike the other planes is more robust, not as reliant on electronics, and the gun could cut a bomber in half.

Yes but a mustang, lightning or even a mosquito with the right pilot could probably take one down.

 

[lupi]

At a minimum you'd just need one. This would allow you prevent any enemy air forces from operating over the mainland continent from overseas bases. It would also allow the interdiction of most naval vessels in the med and off the north atlantic.
 
To truly dominant the enemy powers I'd want 3. One squad for the UK/Atlantic. One squad against russia. Half a squad for the med/N.A. And half a squad in reserve.
 
In air to air combat, about the only way to be shot down would be a lucky shot during a very close head on engagement. Flak would still be a concern over heavily defended (i.e. static) targets and traditional units would need to soak up those cost.
 
The russians always had trouble operating where the luftwaffe was able to apply numerical equivalency and a few of these added per every couple hundred sq miles would bench most of the red air force. The rest would be able to decimate the red army logistics and mechanized forces.
 
Those operating out of Italy would make the med an axis pool and would see Malta and possibly gibraltar lost. Rommel may not have been given the extra troops he requested, but with an air strike able to eliminate most of his opponent if they dared to operate in the open they wouldn't be as needed.
 
The main strategic bombing effort came from england, but with a few planes flying radar picket the germans would know when the wings were launching hours before they were ready to even cross over the mainland coastline. With a single squadron able to down over 200 planes at standoff range, would not take but a couple days for the bombing campaign to be halted.
 
 
 
 
 
Of course the big if, excluding the working time travel devise and such, is enough ammo, fuel, and support staff to maintain the planes flying. Also to be considered is how the planes ability to fly and perform will be degraded in a world without high tech communications and satellite feeds.

 

[brandonb]

Nazi's were superior in airpower at the time.

They had 2 jets, ME-262 and HE-162. The ME-262 had air-to-air rockets. However, the problem wasn't the technology. The problems was there was too many allies swarming airbases. They couldnt' keep the planes up in the air forever, they'd eventually have to land to be rearmed, and the allies would pounce on them as they were landing/taking off. Once in the air they were lethal as is. But even the strongest juggernaught has to have its downtime. The allies were able to conquer them through tactics, not firepower.

The F-22 would have the same fate. Sure, they'd kick the crap out of Allies while in the air, but the F-22 would have to land/rearm/refuel, and thats when the old Allied fighters would pounce and wipe them out.

The F-22 would make little difference if in the inventory of the Nazi's, just like their own jets at the time.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: brandonb
Nazi's were superior in airpower at the time.

They had 2 jets, ME-262 and HE-162. The ME-262 had air-to-air rockets. However, the problem wasn't the technology. The problems was there was too many allies swarming airbases. They couldnt' keep the planes up in the air forever, they'd eventually have to land to be rearmed, and the allies would pounce on them as they were landing/taking off. Once in the air they were lethal as is. But even the strongest juggernaught has to have its downtime. The allies were able to conquer them through tactics, not firepower.

The F-22 would have the same fate. Sure, they'd kick the crap out of Allies while in the air, but the F-22 would have to land/rearm/refuel, and thats when the old Allied fighters would pounce and wipe them out.

The F-22 would make little difference if in the inventory of the Nazi's, just like their own jets at the time.

What is the range of the f22? or the speed? Sure a b-29 had an effective range of 3000+ miles... but how would it even get close to an F22 base especially only going 350 mph? (Even using a p51 with 1300 mile drop tank range and a speed of 440 mph) As I posted earlier the f22 could see the incoming bombers from 150 miles with their radar. Engage, use up all their ammo, return to land, rinse repeat. They could do this at least one hour flight time away from their base. No aerial refueling for the f22 so we have to be conservative. But hey if we could get an f22 back in time why not a kc10?

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: brandonb
Nazi's were superior in airpower at the time.

They had 2 jets, ME-262 and HE-162. The ME-262 had air-to-air rockets. However, the problem wasn't the technology. The problems was there was too many allies swarming airbases. They couldnt' keep the planes up in the air forever, they'd eventually have to land to be rearmed, and the allies would pounce on them as they were landing/taking off. Once in the air they were lethal as is. But even the strongest juggernaught has to have its downtime. The allies were able to conquer them through tactics, not firepower.

The F-22 would have the same fate. Sure, they'd kick the crap out of Allies while in the air, but the F-22 would have to land/rearm/refuel, and thats when the old Allied fighters would pounce and wipe them out.

The F-22 would make little difference if in the inventory of the Nazi's, just like their own jets at the time.

The germans didn't have their jets up in any real number till mid/late 44.

Until late 43/early 44 the allies suffered the same problem as the germans, no qyuality long range aircraft.
Sure a PBY could flow around half the world, but it would be lost in a dogfight against anything better than a swordfish.

Once the P-47s started to roll in then the allies were able to project air power onto the continent from overseas.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Braznor
Let's say the Nazis managed to time travel, steal a few squadrons of F22 to fight the American and British airforce with. How many would it take for them to bring down the mammoth bomber armadas, the Allied used to used to bang the Nazis with wholesale? I imagine only a few with infinite ammo supply?

Do you agree?

They'd be fairly easy to defeat. We'd beat them the same way we beat the Me-262- you don't challenge them, you hang around the runway and wait for them to run out of fuel and land, then you blow them up on the runway.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
unfortunately, the gun on the F22 doesn't have enough rounds to make it very good against massive bomber formations. an F15 would be better. heck, an F86 or a MiG-15 would be better. although, the F15 could probably drop a bomber in 4 or 5 shots.

4 or 5 shots? wtf are you talking about? The F-15 and F-22 use the same cannon (an M61 vulcan). Both will carry about 6-8 AAMs, depending on configuration and type.

Any of the AAMs should take down a WWII airplane in one shot (except maybe a sidewinder in some cases). If you get close enough to shoot with guns, you're probably making a mistake since that's the only way they'll be able to shoot you outside of takeoff and landing.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: brandonb
Nazi's were superior in airpower at the time.

They had 2 jets, ME-262 and HE-162. The ME-262 had air-to-air rockets. However, the problem wasn't the technology. The problems was there was too many allies swarming airbases. They couldnt' keep the planes up in the air forever, they'd eventually have to land to be rearmed, and the allies would pounce on them as they were landing/taking off. Once in the air they were lethal as is. But even the strongest juggernaught has to have its downtime. The allies were able to conquer them through tactics, not firepower.

The F-22 would have the same fate. Sure, they'd kick the crap out of Allies while in the air, but the F-22 would have to land/rearm/refuel, and thats when the old Allied fighters would pounce and wipe them out.

The F-22 would make little difference if in the inventory of the Nazi's, just like their own jets at the time.

The germans didn't have their jets up in any real number till mid/late 44.

Until late 43/early 44 the allies suffered the same problem as the germans, no qyuality long range aircraft.
Sure a PBY could flow around half the world, but it would be lost in a dogfight against anything better than a swordfish.

Once the Merlin engined P-51s started to roll in then the allies were able to project air power onto the continent from overseas.

Fixed.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: ElFenix
unfortunately, the gun on the F22 doesn't have enough rounds to make it very good against massive bomber formations. an F15 would be better. heck, an F86 or a MiG-15 would be better. although, the F15 could probably drop a bomber in 4 or 5 shots.

4 or 5 shots? wtf are you talking about? The F-15 and F-22 use the same cannon (an M61 vulcan). Both will carry about 6-8 AAMs, depending on configuration and type.

Any of the AAMs should take down a WWII airplane in one shot (except maybe a sidewinder in some cases). If you get close enough to shoot with guns, you're probably making a mistake since that's the only way they'll be able to shoot you outside of takeoff and landing.

I think a lot of those heat-seeking missiles would have trouble locking onto a piston engine. They depend on the very hot exhaust from a jet engine.

Even if those jets scored a 100% kill ratio, there would still be hundreds of bombers left in the sky.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Braznor
Let's say the Nazis managed to time travel, steal a few squadrons of F22 to fight the American and British airforce with. How many would it take for them to bring down the mammoth bomber armadas, the Allied used to used to bang the Nazis with wholesale? I imagine only a few with infinite ammo supply?

Do you agree?

They'd be fairly easy to defeat. We'd beat them the same way we beat the Me-262- you don't challenge them, you hang around the runway and wait for them to run out of fuel and land, then you blow them up on the runway.

You might not ever see the F-22 base though.

The Me 262's were severely limited in range. This means the bases have to be built close to the targets and therefore weren't too hard to find or get to for the escorts. That wouldn't be the case with the F-22. It's base could be in, I dunno maybe Poland, for doing intercepts over France. You go up to 50k feet, launch your AAMs from 30+ miles away and head back to base without ever being spotted. Even if you are spotted they can't hope to follow you. Now if they do figure out where your base is, you might be in trouble.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: ElFenix
unfortunately, the gun on the F22 doesn't have enough rounds to make it very good against massive bomber formations. an F15 would be better. heck, an F86 or a MiG-15 would be better. although, the F15 could probably drop a bomber in 4 or 5 shots.

4 or 5 shots? wtf are you talking about? The F-15 and F-22 use the same cannon (an M61 vulcan). Both will carry about 6-8 AAMs, depending on configuration and type.

Any of the AAMs should take down a WWII airplane in one shot (except maybe a sidewinder in some cases). If you get close enough to shoot with guns, you're probably making a mistake since that's the only way they'll be able to shoot you outside of takeoff and landing.

I think a lot of those heat-seeking missiles would have trouble locking onto a piston engine. They depend on the very hot exhaust from a jet engine.

Even if those jets scored a 100% kill ratio, there would still be hundreds of bombers left in the sky.

Modern heat seeking AAMs don't need to see the exhaust from an engine to lock on. They can shoot down planes in head on passes. Piston engines make plenty of heat in any case.

 

[walkur]

I think either a couple of B2's or even B-52's might be a lot more effective.
They fly to high for enemy fire and with modern day precision instruments guiding the bombs they could probably take out up to 10 targets in one run...

 

[IceBergSLiM]

how many treadmills are involved?

 

[ballmode]

I say one squad

 

[Deleted member 4644]

You would need at least dozens. Think of it this way. Assume you have 36 planes. Assume each one carries 8 missiles (6?). Assume that each plane can fly three times a day. If there are 100s or 1000s of bombers, you need a decent # of planes.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: sierrita
Yes but a mustang, lightning or even a mosquito with the right pilot could probably take one down.

Bah, remember the story of the one person who was able to fly their battered down A10 back to base?

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: LordSegan
You would need at least dozens. Think of it this way. Assume you have 36 planes. Assume each one carries 8 missiles (6?). Assume that each plane can fly three times a day. If there are 100s or 1000s of bombers, you need a decent # of planes.

But the Germans haven't given up their 109s and 190s in this scenario. They're still around.

Plus you don't have to shoot down all the airplanes, just give them a loss rate they can't take economically or psychologically. Imagine if the B-17s are forming up for the raid over England, and then in the bright blue morning sky (rare for England, but for the sake of argument) in full view of everyone, 8 airplanes explode and fall out of the sky. No warning whatsoever, no German plane on radar or in sight. Imagine it happening 3 missions in a row. It might as well be magic. What happens the morale of the flight crews as word of this spreads?

 

[Vic]

Assuming infinite fuel and ammo, just one F-22 could have single-handedly taken out every plane in WWII. Stealth and long-range air-to-air missiles FTW!

 

[lupi]

Fixed.

Not really. Unless I'm remembering something incorrectly the P-51s allowed the bomber wings to have escort over most if not all of their runs while it was the 47's acting as FBs that began the devastation of axis military infastructure and locations in france.

The US had very few tactical P-51 wings due to those on escort and lend lease to the brits.