How much did your paycheck go up from Trump's tax plan?

[zinfamous]

I like how conservatives find themselves championing this government-mandated, high interest loan that is tacked onto their paychecks. It's great! Bring me the debt! Totes responsible! I love government-imposed, individual debt!

Remember when the ACA mandate was the worst thing ever because the government was imposing something on us with the goal of reduced costs for everyone? lol. I guess the best mandates are the ones that make individuals poorer in the end, and further under the thrall of the government.

 

[jackstar7]

That's right. They learned on this journey that the authoritarians were inside them all along.

 

[Pneumothorax]

My first paycheck under the tax plan went up around $200. So a net average of over $400 per month. Thanks Trump!

 

[BigDH01]

What do they see as their way out?

Job opportunities.

 

[soundforbjt]

Stock Markets starting out with a fall again today.

Trump economy at work, right?

Minority unemployment went up in Jan. Wonder if Drumpf will take credit for that?

 

[umbrella39]

It's fun to watch the confirmation bias likes that have been thumbed up... Proof that the Trump tax isn't helping lower to middle class Americans as evidenced here gets met with blank stares....

 

[AdamK47]

Just received my first paycheck with the tax break.

A measly $250 extra a month in net take home pay.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Job opportunities.

Such as?

If they're poorly educated, and jobs they qualify for are being automated and off shored, what exactly is their play? Tell the government that they don't trust it, reject handouts, and then what? Wait for jobs to come back?

 

[Bitek]

It would be quite difficult. Decades of federal assistance and the place is still a shithole, the schools are shit (my high school was something like 307th of 325 in terms of quality in the state with over half the students getting a free lunch), and meth and hopelessness is a huge problem.

The only thing that's going to improve their lives is economic growth. Trump promised this to them via protectionism (which is counter-productive) but these people are desperate for anything.

Another thing that can be done is to completely reform eduction to provide high schoolers with real skills. I was part of a pilot program at the high school to teach kids vocational skills (mine was CCNA training, but they had programs for mechanics, welders, etc). I can't find any solid statistics on outcomes, but it served me well. But it also requires thinking about high school as a place to get practical skills as opposed to a training ground for college (that most people in that town couldn't afford without going into massive amounts of debt anyway).



Trust me, there was no lack of knowledge in that town about how to get free money. It just wasn't doing much to improve outcomes.



I'm not questioning the motives of dems (and I don't think most people in this town does). I'm a libertarian and I caucused for fucking Bernie Sanders (because I think even though he's wrong on a lot of policies, his heart is in the right place). I'd prefer him to the face of the establishment or a bunch of religious hypocritical zealots. The problem with these policies though is not necessarily intent but the outcome. Have the decades of government handouts improved my home town? People there don't think so, so these poor working-class (with a high proportion of welfare recipients) voted for Trump. They just don't trust the government to help them. They need a way out, not generations of government dependents.

Yes, I know, this is still a lot of fluff. This is also just my first-hand account. I don't know the solution, but what we've been doing so far hasn't been working so well for these folks.

I agree with pretty much all of what you wrote.

My take is that DC has no clear strategy of America's and the American workers place is in the world wrt manufacturing. Thus we don't prioritize our spending to execute the strategy.

China is a low labor cost manufacturer, with aggressive assistance for businesses from the government. Loans, IP, protectionism and Chinese protectionist regulations all serve to boost Chinese companies. Cheap, acceptable when shitty is good enough.

Germany: high cost but high quality manufacturer of wide ranging goods. Strong govt support of workers and development of skills and quality of life. Expertise in many niche and small shop goods, as well as large scale durable goods. Expensive, but quality worth the money.

USA: What do we call our brand? Not the cheapest, and probably not the best? Chevy nation? Low burden on businesses, but low help to workers. Laize faire capitalism. Whomever wins, wins, foreign or domestic companies doesn't matter, more important is size & economies of scale to block out competitors and hire lobbyists.

We just cut taxes and regs and leave it to the wind. Weak safety net to keep the poor from feeling the worst of poverty, but no real plans to lift them out.

 

[BigDH01]

Such as?

If they're poorly educated, and jobs they qualify for are being automated and off shored, what exactly is their play?

Apparently, to vote for Donald Trump.

Tell the government that they don't trust it, reject handouts, and then what? Wait for jobs to come back?

Well, they wouldn't see it as reducing handouts as much as reducing government and hoping that business follows. They've experienced decades of handouts but the town is still shit. And while you might view them as voting against their own best interest, they do not. They are willing to try something new, even crazy, to try and improve their lives (they were about 2:1 trump/clinton btw).

 

[ch33zw1z]

Apparently, to vote for Donald Trump.



Well, they wouldn't see it as reducing handouts as much as reducing government and hoping that business follows. They've experienced decades of handouts but the town is still shit. And while you might view them as voting against their own best interest, they do not. They are willing to try something new, even crazy, to try and improve their lives (they were about 2:1 trump/clinton btw).

Here's something crazy, move to where the jobs are.

 

[BigDH01]

Here's something crazy, move to where the jobs are.

You ever think about what this entails, especially for those who are poor and likely heavily dependent on community/familial support? Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea in the long run, but for those on the margin this is far easier said than done.

But I'm all ears on policies that increase labor mobility. Might start with reducing the cost of housing by examining policies that limit supply and those artificially inflate housing prices.

 

[ch33zw1z]

You ever think about what this entails, especially for those who are poor and likely heavily dependent on community/familial support? Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea in the long run, but for those on the margin this is far easier said than done.

But I'm all ears on policies that increase labor mobility. Might start with reducing the cost of housing by examining policies that limit supply and those artificially inflate housing prices.

Of course I think about what is takes. If they did, maybe theyd appreciate the character it takes from illegal and legal immigrants in this country. It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

So on one hand, you have people who aren't afraid to try something, yet don't want to vacate the comfort of they miserable situation to do it.

They seem that be of the mindset that they're deserving of the American dream just for being here. Sounds like an entitlement mindset.

And voting in representatives who aren't helping them is just mind boggling.

If the jobs are leaving, the least you could do is get yourself some healthcare on the other states dime.

 

[K1052]

You ever think about what this entails, especially for those who are poor and likely heavily dependent on community/familial support? Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea in the long run, but for those on the margin this is far easier said than done.

But I'm all ears on policies that increase labor mobility. Might start with reducing the cost of housing by examining policies that limit supply and those artificially inflate housing prices.

I think an argument could be made that it would be much more cost effective to pay people to relocate than trying to revive places with little real future on the horizon. I'm not saying move everybody to LA or something but at least to the orbit of a decent sized city with some opportunity.

As someone who has long supported wiping out overly restrictive zoning and approval processes for increased housing density I say have at the latter point.

 

[BigDH01]

Of course I think about what is takes. If they did, maybe theyd appreciate the character it takes from illegal and legal immigrants in this country. It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

So on one hand, you have people who aren't afraid to try something, yet don't want to vacate the comfort of they miserable situation to do it.

They seem that be of the mindset that they're deserving of the American dream just for being here. Sounds like an entitlement mindset.

I'm pro-immigration, but I'm not sure it's really an entitlement mindset. They are voting in their own rational self-interest just like everyone else does. I suppose that means we all have an entitlement mindset.

And voting in representatives who aren't helping them is just mind boggling.

That's the thing, from their perspective they are better off with Trump than Clinton. You may not agree with this fact, but people vote in their perceived interests, not yours. And from their perspective, the government hasn't helped them.

If the jobs are leaving, the least you could do is get yourself some healthcare on the other states dime.

You assume that these people want to be dependents. Meanwhile, they are trying to tell you they'd rather roll the dice with Trump in an attempt to improve their economies than live on enforced charity. Then you bitch about them; thinking they are just too stupid to know what's good for them while they've been living in the shit these policies have done fuckall to help.

 

[BigDH01]

I think an argument could be made that it would be much more cost effective to pay people to relocate than trying to revive places with little real future on the horizon. I'm not saying move everybody to LA or something but at least to the orbit of a decent sized city with some opportunity.

I think I'd be amenable to moving subsidies with a yearly maximum or something of that nature.

 

[ch33zw1z]

As you said, poor education systems leave all of us with that mess.

So, the children can kick and scream and project at others. But when put to the task, what will the end result be...

At this point, it's a massive giveaway....again...to the wealthiest Americans, on the backs of working Americans...who will then be saddled with another bailout eventually, it's only a matter of time.

So thanks for your time and info, it does nothing to change reality of the situation.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I think I'd be amenable to moving subsidies with a yearly maximum or something of that nature.

I dunno, now we get to throw more money at the problem? What about hard work and earning it, less government, you know the chant.

 

[BigDH01]

I dunno, now we get to throw more money at the problem? What about hard work and earning it, less government, you know the chant.

This is why I can't get on board with liberals. I'm willing to have an open and honest discussion about how to help the community from which I originate, the very people you proclaim to want to help. In response, I get the usual denigration of these people (children, entitled, the usual implication that they are stupid). I'm sorry that the democrats didn't get the votes they probably believe they purchased, but it's time to face the fact that these people don't see your policies as their savior.

 

[ch33zw1z]

This is why I can't get on board with liberals. I'm willing to have an open and honest discussion about how to help the community from which I originate, the very people you proclaim to want to help. In response, I get the usual denigration of these people (children, entitled, the usual implication that they are stupid). I'm sorry that the democrats didn't get the votes they probably believe they purchased, but it's time to face the fact that these people don't see your policies as their savior.

I don't see their policies as helping me, for sure. So we have that in common. Because, factually, policies being put in place now help the investors in our country. The little guy is just gonna get screwed some more.

Deficit spending all around. Which prior to Obama's election, actual fiscal responsibility would've stayed me. But outright racism, hatred for your fellowan, combined with obvious fiscal irresponsibility is why I can't get on board with conservatives.

You have an open discussion, but what you're asking for is help for communities who say they dont want it. And openly mock others for wanting to try.

Again, you said it yourself. It starts with education.

 

[jackstar7]

Dow down almost 500pts. Plenty of time for a rebound before close, but the trend today is definitely down.

EDIT: Over 500 down now.

EDIT2: Over 600 now.

 

[BigDH01]

I don't see their policies as helping me, for sure. So we have that in common. Because, factually, policies being put in place now help the investors in our country. The little guy is just gonna get screwed some more.

Investment isn't the enemy. My home community would probably be better off with some business investment than they would be with another TANF check.

Deficit spending all around. Which prior to Obama's election, actual fiscal responsibility would've stayed me. But outright racism, hatred for your fellowan, combined with obvious fiscal irresponsibility is why I can't get on board with conservatives.

I can agree that Democrats and Republicans alike pursue big government and deficit spending. I can't get behind the idea that conservatives are just racists who hate their fellow man. If you want to attack conservatism, do it for legitimate reasons. Their theocratic nature is dangerous. Their nationalism/militarism is dangerous. Their endless love of those professions that commit violence on behalf of the state, their anti-privacy agendas, etc. Those are all legitimate criticisms.

FWIW, I don't want smaller government because I dislike the poor or anyone for that matter. I have the same goals you do, I want to help the poor. I just think there's a different and better path.

You have an open discussion, but what you're asking for is help for communities who say they dont want it.

They don't want the help you've been trying to give them because they don't view it as help. That's what you fail to understand. You view something like Obamacare as an awesome policy to reduce their healthcare costs and provide them with something they would otherwise not have. They see Obamacare in the context of large increases in their insurance premiums and government meddling in their lives.

Again, you said it yourself. It starts with education.

It starts with rethinking education to improve outcomes. I have some unpopular views in this regard, but when every school in my home town gets an F grade I think it's time for radical thinking.

 

[jackstar7]

I can agree that Democrats and Republicans alike pursue big government and deficit spending.

Worth noting that the ends should be considered when you judge the means.

 

[K1052]

Investment isn't the enemy. My home community would probably be better off with some business investment than they would be with another TANF check.

But how likely is that investment really? The pattern of business in recent decades has, in the vast majority, not favored small midwestern towns.

Probably the worst thing Trump could do is promise those people that all their factories/mines/mills/etc were coming back. They're not.

I've had a front row seat to watch this part of America wither and start to die, nothing much in the last 20 years convinces me that the trajectory is going to change.

 

[BigDH01]

Sure, but the point still stands that these people would be better off with work than aid. If investment goes to the urban areas, then I'm not opposed to making it easier for residents of these towns to move there. Combining economic growth with putting people where that growth is happening seems like the best solution to poverty.