How much do Doctors and Lawyers get paid?

[mshan]

From Eug's link:

My guess is that distribution curve of those "average" incomes is bi-modal (not Bell curve), with new graduates / employees / junior associates way down on one end (getting paid significantly less than what they could bill in terms of actual services provided), and senior partners way, way at other end of bi-modal distribution, collecting the excess profits of those working for their firm, so to speak.

 

[Sulaco]

My father is both.

The perceived "wealth" of doctors is largely a myth, especially when factoring in the astronomical work load and educational requirements, not to mention loans, fees, and expenses from years of schooling.

Back in about 1999/2000, as Chief Resident of Neurology at the University of Kentucky, he was making (I've since learned) roughly $45,000 a year. Granted, that was 13 years ago roughly, but we were by no means "rich". Living next to us on one side was a retired Detective, on the other, the owner of a Firestone Tire shop.

He has since gone on to sub-specialize , doing both private practice (which he hated), and now academic professorship, while still covering hospital call and seeing patients in the clinic. His salary is now a very comfortable $230k+, but it's taken 20+ years of some of the best training to get there.

There's money to be made, for sure, but for a doctor worth anything, there is a real, genuine fascination, love, and respect for the profession and speciality. Which is why he pursued it, even having a comfortable law future available.
It's a craft. A life-long love. To put in that kind of work, it pretty much has to be.

 

[jagec]

From Eug's link:


My guess is that distribution curve of those "average" incomes is bi-modal (not Bell curve), with new graduates / employees / junior associates way down on one end (getting paid significantly less than what they could bill in terms of actual services provided), and senior partners way, way at other end of bi-modal distribution, collecting the excess profits of those working for their firm, so to speak.

It certainly won't be a normal distribution, but I REALLY doubt it's bimodal. It's probably positively skewed. Like most salary distribution plots.

 

[Slew Foot]

From Eug's link:

My guess is that distribution curve of those "average" incomes is bi-modal (not Bell curve), with new graduates / employees / junior associates way down on one end (getting paid significantly less than what they could bill in terms of actual services provided), and senior partners way, way at other end of bi-modal distribution, collecting the excess profits of those working for their firm, so to speak.

For the most part that is true, but the recent attacks on private practices have caused most private groups to be taken over by hospitals/HMOs/academic groups so the MD partners that used to make good money are replaced by CEOs/hospital administrators/bureaucrats and the physicians are all treated like new low level salaried employees</long ass sentence>.

 

[SsupernovaE]

For the most part that is true, but the recent attacks on private practices have caused most private groups to be taken over by hospitals/HMOs/academic groups so the MD partners that used to make good money are replaced by CEOs/hospital administrators/bureaucrats and the physicians are all treated like new low level salaried employees</long ass sentence>.

Aren't you one of those bureaucrats?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

definitely, pharmacy is a great career.

Maybe in a hospital.

12 hours and pressure to not to got the bathroom, not eat, and have bean counters tell you to meet the 15 minute guarantee or else? Professional judgement usurped by corporate policy?

Clinical? Yes. Retail? I wish I could get out and so do most who have time in.

 

[SirStev0]

My father is both.

The perceived "wealth" of doctors is largely a myth, especially when factoring in the astronomical work load and educational requirements, not to mention loans, fees, and expenses from years of schooling.

Back in about 1999/2000, as Chief Resident of Neurology at the University of Kentucky, he was making (I've since learned) roughly $45,000 a year. Granted, that was 13 years ago roughly, but we were by no means "rich". Living next to us on one side was a retired Detective, on the other, the owner of a Firestone Tire shop.

He has since gone on to sub-specialize , doing both private practice (which he hated), and now academic professorship, while still covering hospital call and seeing patients in the clinic. His salary is now a very comfortable $230k+, but it's taken 20+ years of some of the best training to get there.

There's money to be made, for sure, but for a doctor worth anything, there is a real, genuine fascination, love, and respect for the profession and speciality. Which is why he pursued it, even having a comfortable law future available.
It's a craft. A life-long love. To put in that kind of work, it pretty much has to be.

Don't worry.. 10 years latter and Chief Resident still only make like 49k a year. We have been in a price lock for years.
Cost of Living and Med School loans keep going up... we continue to make slave wages.

 

[madoka]

Law school is an absolutely huge gamble.

Basically to make the big money you must go to a top ten in the country school AND graduate in the top 25% of your class. If you go to top ten and don't do top 25% you can still get a decent job but not the big firm job. Or you go to a tier 1/2 school with a regional reputation and graduate in top 1% with law review experience. There are exceptions to these rules but they are few and far between.

What I find to be true is that it's better to be a driven go-getter from a lower ranked law school than a more passive person from a top law school. I went to a top five school and there's really no guarantee that you'll be financially successful because you went to a good school. You need to learn/know how to network and put your nose to the grindstone. However, certainly going to a good school will open more doors for you.

One major advantage that lawyers have over doctors is that you don't need much equipment to practice your craft. These days all you need is a computer, access to Lexis or Westlaw, and clients.

 

[Sust]

For the most part that is true, but the recent attacks on private practices have caused most private groups to be taken over by hospitals/HMOs/academic groups so the MD partners that used to make good money are replaced by CEOs/hospital administrators/bureaucrats and the physicians are all treated like new low level salaried employees</long ass sentence>.

In the US at least, it does seem like "health systems" are taking over broad geographic regions which tends to make sense. Health systems tend to buy out primary care doctors(who can at times suffer from increasingly stringent managed care reimbursement) first which essentially buys out the referral base for that region and funnels it back into the health system surgeons and specialists. From there, they eventually grow to the point where there are several health systems battling it out for patients while a few solo practitioners exist outside of the health systems for the select few who can afford them. At that point, the people who are making the most money are not the MDs, but the health system board and administration. No one ever talks about how much money those people made on the backs of legions of MDs, RNs, PharmD's, etc.

If you're a health system which has all of the customers and you know you can continue to squeeze your employees (b/c they'd feel guilty about pushing back and have a lot of trouble surviving financially outside of your sphere of influence), you're going to scale back on everyone(maybe even the patients) bit by bit until someone finally has the guts to do something. Nothing personal... it's just business. Just look at the sad state of the mental health sector with a whole pt population that's been ignored/neglected for so long that they have no one to speak up for them.

In regards to OP's question: he might be better off trying to be a hospital CEO or insurance company exec. That's where I imagine the money is located and you dont have the guilt of directly killing a patient or the time/stress of medical school/residency.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

My fiancée just finished her first year of law school in a top 100 school. This thread makes me sad.

Tell her to quit while she is behind.

Wish I could say that I am kidding. But I'm really not. Better to cut her losses now.

 

[Slew Foot]

Aren't you one of those bureaucrats?

Not really, I represent the physicians group.

 

[jaedaliu]

Tell her to quit while she is behind.

Wish I could say that I am kidding. But I'm really not. Better to cut her losses now.

Who knows, maybe she'll love being an ambulance chaser.

My cousins (plastic surgeon and cardiologist) kept telling my wife (then girlfriend) not to go to med school. After she got in, to quit. They also kept telling her to dump me. She kept going for it and loves medicine even though she's working 80 hour weeks for low pay during residency.

Hrm.... maybe I need to find some different cousins to hang out with.

is that net or gross

Gross, but after malpractice insurance (largest expense) is deducted. Typically, malpractice insurance is paid by the medical group, so the salary listed is the gross salary that would show up on your W2.

 

[Anubis]

i know where malp is paid, those numbers just seem really low

my BIL grossed like 800K last year as an orthopedic surgeon in his first year of being in practice out of med school/fellowship

think my dad grosses something like 500k as a general surgeon

 

[Scotteq]

800k Rupees???

 

[Anubis]

no real US money, He live in CA, in the mountains, hospital pays him 50% of what he bills or some silly crap

 

[Akali]

Is it true that society looks down upon lawyers because they help criminals and care about money?

 

[edro]

My cousin just finished law school and passed the bar.
The law firm where she interned hired her for $35,000/year.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Who knows, maybe she'll love being an ambulance chaser.

For the record, not all lawyers are ambulance chasers.

Regardless, it doesn't matter what area of the law she might enjoy practicing because there are no jobs. When the rare job opening arises, there are 4-5 years worth of law school graduates ready to compete for it. And most of them are so deep in debt that they would sell their soul and every ounce of their blood for a decent paying job.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Maybe in a hospital.

12 hours and pressure to not to got the bathroom, not eat, and have bean counters tell you to meet the 15 minute guarantee or else? Professional judgement usurped by corporate policy?

Clinical? Yes. Retail? I wish I could get out and so do most who have time in.

Hospital pharmacy has just as much politics and dysfunction as retail. Replace irate customers with nurses and physicians.

 

[vi edit]

Hospital pharmacy has just as much politics and dysfunction as retail. Replace irate customers with nurses and physicians.

It's not the same. There's a reason why you seen so many Pharmacists move from retail to hospital and very few going the other way.

 

[Eug]

no real US money, He live in CA, in the mountains, hospital pays him 50% of what he bills or some silly crap

So effectively, his pay is $250000.

This is an important point to remember when looking at the various numbers. How much a physician bills isn't the same as how much a physician earns, since overhead can be as much as 40-50%.

Furthermore, they usually don't get added benefits (depending on the job) or pensions, which for some people can represent something like another 20% on top of the official salary. eg. Someone making $50000 might be costing the employer closer to $60000, whereas a physician billing $300000 might actually be earning $150000 before tax, without benefits.

So, while on paper it may seem the doc is getting paid 6X as much, in reality it's closer to 2.5X as much. That's still a decent amount of money, but not as much as what some think it is.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

It's not the same. There's a reason why you seen so many Pharmacists move from retail to hospital and very few going the other way.

It definitely takes a certain character to work retail these days. As someone who's worked both sides (albeit as a student) they all have their pros and cons.

 

[Anubis]

So effectively, his pay is $250000.

This is an important point to remember when looking at the various numbers. How much a physician bills isn't the same as how much a physician earns, since overhead can be as much as 40-50%.

Furthermore, they usually don't get added benefits (depending on the job) or pensions, which for some people can represent something like another 20% on top of the official salary. eg. Someone making $50000 might be costing the employer closer to $60000, whereas a physician billing $300000 might actually be earning $150000 before tax, without benefits.

So, while on paper it may seem the doc is getting paid 6X as much, in reality it's closer to 2.5X as much. That's still a decent amount of money, but not as much as what some think it is.

no his actual pay was 800kish before personal taxes and such the total to the hospital would have been like 1.6 million

as for my dad im pretty sure he salaries himself at ~285K (private practice) so 500k gross might actually be low

 

[jagec]

49k a year.

slave wages.

That's low considering the amount of training and education needed, but "slave wages" is a little dramatic, don't you think?

 

[spinejam]

In the US at least, it does seem like "health systems" are taking over broad geographic regions which tends to make sense. Health systems tend to buy out primary care doctors(who can at times suffer from increasingly stringent managed care reimbursement) first which essentially buys out the referral base for that region and funnels it back into the health system surgeons and specialists. From there, they eventually grow to the point where there are several health systems battling it out for patients while a few solo practitioners exist outside of the health systems for the select few who can afford them. At that point, the people who are making the most money are not the MDs, but the health system board and administration. No one ever talks about how much money those people made on the backs of legions of MDs, RNs, PharmD's, etc.

If you're a health system which has all of the customers and you know you can continue to squeeze your employees (b/c they'd feel guilty about pushing back and have a lot of trouble surviving financially outside of your sphere of influence), you're going to scale back on everyone(maybe even the patients) bit by bit until someone finally has the guts to do something. Nothing personal... it's just business. Just look at the sad state of the mental health sector with a whole pt population that's been ignored/neglected for so long that they have no one to speak up for them.

In regards to OP's question: he might be better off trying to be a hospital CEO or insurance company exec. That's where I imagine the money is located and you dont have the guilt of directly killing a patient or the time/stress of medical school/residency.

This is most likely the future for all physicians. It has happened here in NC already. Generally speaking, insurance reimbursement rates have continued to plummet for years and the remaining health plans offer significantly reduced provider compensation / phantom benefits / and have very high co-insurance - copays for most patients which, in-turn, dissuade potential patients from seeking care.

Don't be a doctor b/c you want to make $$$, do it b/c you want to help people.