How much do you think piracy is affecting the PC Gaming market?

[BoberFett]

You can try to rationalize it all you want, but to attempt to say piracy is not immoral requires a suspension of logic you should be ashamed of.

When humankind someday perfects matter/energy conversion and creates a real replicator, will making perfect replicas of food be immoral?

 

[Dumac]

I'm sorry, but it seems like some people's 'intelligence' is getting in the way here. This is very simple. Follow me now.

Piracy = stealing somebody else's work, their intellectual property, and their time.

stealing = wrong.

wrong = people come up with all kind of wild fantasies to convince themselves that it's not wrong. It's how humans respond generally when confronted.

Sorry, but your first declaration is false.

Piracy != stealing

It has been stated numerous times. Why can't you grasp that? Oh yeah, I'm just some terrible pirate boogeyman whose running a seedbox with 3TB of torrents.

Piracy = the infringement of a concept of 'copyright' that is a recent societal development and not an inherit truth of being

Piracy = illegal in the US, but not in some other countries

Illegal != Immoral

 

[ImpulsE69]

I'm sorry, but it seems like some people's 'intelligence' is getting in the way here. This is very simple. Follow me now.

Piracy = stealing somebody else's work, their intellectual property, and their time.

stealing = wrong.

wrong = people come up with all kind of wild fantasies to convince themselves that it's not wrong. It's how humans respond generally when confronted.

I'm still trying to figure out what they are stealing...are they selling the other persons work and claiming it as their own?

 

[BoberFett]

I'm sorry, but it seems like some people's 'intelligence' is getting in the way here. This is very simple. Follow me now.

Piracy = stealing somebody else's work, their intellectual property, and their time.

stealing = wrong.

wrong = people come up with all kind of wild fantasies to convince themselves that it's not wrong. It's how humans respond generally when confronted.

Stealing implies that the previous owner no longer has possession of an item. The beauty of ideas is that there is no scarcity. A good idea can be possessed by every human with no loss to the original owner. If wealth is define as an abundance of goods, and ideas are considered property, then we can make society instantly wealthier by ensuring the spread of good ideas.

The concept of IP and having to pay others to use ideas strangles good ideas. It creates an artificial scarcity on human thought and ingenuity. It says that only one person can have an idea, and if anybody else has the same idea then they need to pay someone else for it.

Society has decided that in the interest of promoting good ideas, we will give a temporary monopoly on those ideas. Unfortunately due to people like you, copyright has been blown so far out of proportion that it has become a joke. Your entirely wrong ideas about "stealing" and "morality" have worsened society by ensuring as few people as possible have access to certain thoughts, all in the name of self-righteousness. You are responsible for a poorer world, not pirates.

 

[BoberFett]

Perhaps what we need to do is actually truly start treating ideas like property if people want to pretend that they are property.

When you copyright something, you need to put a dollar figure on the total value of that idea. You can say the idea is worth $1. You can say the idea is worth $1,000,000,000,000. It's completely up to the owner to determine how much the idea is worth. If you then want to sue someone who "pirates" your idea, the damages are based on the stated value of the idea divided by the number of copies of that idea that have been created. So in the case of a game, if the developer claims that the game as a whole is worth $10,000,000, and has sold 100,000 copies, then the value of a pirated copy is worth $100. Figure treble damages, plus court and attorney fees and that is the most they can sue for. No more of this $150,000 per work garbage, so that copying a mix CD for your friend is no longer worth millions of dollars.

Now we get to the fun part. Property is taxed. Every year, a copyright holder needs to pay for the tax on their ideas. If 2% works for real property, then it certainly works for intellectual property as well. Every year a copyright holder needs to pay 2% of their stated value for the idea as a tax. Claim the idea is worth nothing and you pay nothing. Claim it's worth billions and over time you'll pay billions. Stop paying the tax and the idea now falls into the public domain, because clearly the owner decided it wasn't worth paying upkeep on, and the idea must be worth nothing.

Voila! Copyright can last forever if someone believes their idea is valuable enough to continue paying for it. If the intellectual property owner doesn't want to keep paying tax, it's entirely their choice.

 

[Necc]

I'm sorry, but it seems like some people's 'intelligence' is getting in the way here. This is very simple. Follow me now.

Piracy = stealing somebody else's work, their intellectual property, and their time.

stealing = wrong.

wrong = people come up with all kind of wild fantasies to convince themselves that it's not wrong. It's how humans respond generally when confronted.

By your logic samsung should shut down there factories because they pirated (Stole) the design of apple's iphone :hmm:

 

[blackened23]

Sorry, but your first declaration is false.

Piracy != stealing

It has been stated numerous times. Why can't you grasp that? Oh yeah, I'm just some terrible pirate boogeyman whose running a seedbox with 3TB of torrents.

Piracy = the infringement of a concept of 'copyright' that is a recent societal development and not an inherit truth of being

Piracy = illegal in the US, but not in some other countries

Illegal != Immoral

I always love it when this absolutely absurd argument comes up. "It isn't stealing guys". Look. People who aren't paid a lot of money put their blood sweat and MF'ing tears into programming the games that we cherish and enjoy, what you are paying for is the intellectual property - the digital zeros and ones that they toiled over for years. Something that they enjoy doing, to hopefully give you a bit of enjoyment. It isn't your ENTITLEMENT to take that for free, and regardless of semantics, stealing doesn't have to be physical property - you are still taking that copyrighted material without paying for it, and AGAIN, I remind you, game programmers have NO job stability and DO NOT get paid a lot.

Yet scum come along and steal games like it's a joke. Yes, I realize that game publishers like EA are also scum, but when publishers earns money the little guys who actually made the game also earn money. And they don't earn very much. On top of that, there is practically zero job stability, it is common practice to get laid off immediately after a product ships. I know guys that this has happened to and it sucks. It's completely hilarious that some scum comes along and completely takes that for granted stating "BUT ITS NOT STEALING". Give me a freaking break. Your logic can't possibly be that absurd and ridiculous unless you're twelve years old.

Yes, I see what you're getting at. Arguing semantics. You are ridiculous.

 

[smackababy]

game programmers have NO job stability and DO NOT get paid a lot.

The problem with that lies also in the market. Every programmer under the age of 30 wants to be a game programmer. And they are willing to make $45k a year and make terrible hours doing so. And with such an abundance of eager people, everyone's replaceable. I never understood why people thought this way, which is one of the reasons I stayed away from the game development industry as a programmer. That and I'd rather be the next John Carmack, not the guy who works on the next Call of Duty. Sadly, I am not at that genius level yet. >_>

 

[SMOGZINN]

I remind you, game programmers have NO job stability and DO NOT get paid a lot.

Nor do they have a stake in the IP. They are often fired as soon as the software is done.

Yet scum come along and steal games like it's a joke.

Which takes not a penny out of the pockets of these poor impoverished programmers.

On top of that, there is practically zero job stability, it is common practice to get laid off immediately after a product ships.

But EA et al will expect to get money from that work for the next 150 years.

A pirate takes nothing. You can't steal something that is not taken.

It is not stealing anytime someone fails to make money. Otherwise you are stealing right now by reading this instead of buying something.

 

[blackened23]

You're basing the stealing definition on physical property. You and I both know that intellectual property and digital goods have value, which is why our country is flooded with continual patent legislation and why the top firms in the US are continually targetted for IP theft. Because digital property has value. That's why multi billion lawsuits are made not for physical goods, but for copyrighted intellectual property. You can't quantify "stealing" as only being for physical goods, unless you're a complete jackass that wants to justify piracy through semantics. Come on, are we that stupid? Give me a break.

Let me also address your other argument, that pirates wouldn't buy it anyway. For some this may be true. For others, it is not. Only a jackass would state that 100% of pirates would never buy a product anyway. That doesn't give you an entitlement to take everything and anything you want. Furthermore, you are still taking something that isn't yours to take. We are in the year 2013. Not all goods are physical. PERIOD.

Stop arguing semantics. Your argument is stupid and you absolutely know it, you think that your silly semantics can justify your piracy. I'm sorry it does not. You're taking intellectual copyrighted material which isn't yours to take.

 

[Aikouka]

The problem with that lies also in the market. Every programmer under the age of 30 wants to be a game programmer. And they are willing to make $45k a year and make terrible hours doing so. And with such an abundance of eager people, everyone's replaceable. I never understood why people thought this way, which is one of the reasons I stayed away from the game development industry as a programmer. That and I'd rather be the next John Carmack, not the guy who works on the next Call of Duty. Sadly, I am not at that genius level yet. >_>

Yeah, you've pretty much described why I am not a game programmer. It's really more of a "labor of love" than just a job with how much effort you have to put in without compensation.

 

[SMOGZINN]

You're basing the stealing definition on physical property.

Because by calling it stealing you are trying to compare it to physical property.

You and I both know that intellectual property and digital goods have value,

Of course they have value. But so does sunlight. The real question is who does that value belong to?

which is why our country is flooded with continual patent legislation and why the top firms in the US are continually targetted for IP theft.

Notice how non of that litigation is criminal theft charges. Instead it is contract law. I can sue you for libel, because my good name has value, but I would not try to claim you stole my good name.

You can't quantify "stealing" as only being for physical goods, unless you're a complete jackass that wants to justify piracy through semantics. Come on, are we that stupid? Give me a break.

No, you are the jackass trying to claim that any time someone sues someone then they have suffered theft. Your argument literally makes no sense.

Only a jackass would state that 100% of pirates would never buy a product anyway. That doesn't give you an entitlement to take everything and anything you want.

Nice stawman, but no one has made such an argument, so beat away.

You're taking intellectual copyrighted material which isn't yours to take.

We have already established that nothing is taken. Are you too simple to understand the difference between contact law and theft?

 

[ImpulsE69]

Aren't programmers paid salary/contract per job, not percentages of sales?

 

[Annisman*]

It's hard arguing with somebody who never learned that taking little Timmy's toy away from him is a no no. This type of corrupt mindset is learned behavior.

 

[tHa ShIzNiT]

Aren't programmers paid salary/contract per job, not percentages of sales?

my buddy worked for EA in a QA-type role where he worked directly with developers and he was given a large bonus based on sales of the most recent COD game. I'd reckon the programmers are getting an even larger bonus than he.

 

[sze5003]

Aren't programmers paid salary/contract per job, not percentages of sales?

Most are contractors and go by hours. They can make up to 80 an hour but contract firm takes usually a good amount from that. The full timers get salary and bonuses depend on performance in this case I imagine by the amount of sales at release.

Still, many devs as contractors are let go after a game or project is done. Various reasons to this of course.

 

[smackababy]

Most are contractors and go by hours. They can make up to 80 an hour but contract firm takes usually a good amount from that. The full timers get salary and bonuses depend on performance in this case I imagine by the amount of sales at release.

Still, many devs as contractors are let go after a game or project is done. Various reasons to this of course.

Almost all of the contract works I've worked with are independent and don't work for a firm. Except for defense contractors. Its all 1099 work. I am not sure how it works in the gaming industry, but all other development industries I've seen it is like that.

 

[Agent11]

Yea tell that to the people that spend hundreds of hours coding, hundreds of hours slaving over vertices and hundreds of hours manipulating textures. Just a concept, why are you working soo hard?

 

[Grimbones]

When i was a kid (okay 16-19 or so), i used to pirate games, and the occasional movie. It probably cost a few companies a couple sales...maybe. Honestly i didn't have any disposable income, and if i didn't know a game was great before hand, i wasn't buying it....Demo's were not readily available as they are today.

Anyway, the reason i gave it up is simple...It's wrong. I started to look at it the same way i look at all other forms of stealing, and realized there's not a huge reason to do it. I stopped downloading songs, and just use youtube now if i have a hankering to listen to something online...

Also, i actually went back and bought some THQ games i had pirated...i played COH, and really enjoyed it. I actually haven't played the game since i bought it, but i just wanted to help out...not that it saved them in the end.

In the long run, i am sure they are losing a lot of sales, but not that many people have a ton of money to be dropping 50-60 bucks for new releases...though it could be effecting sales when the games drop to around 20 bucks...imo.

 

[HeXen]

Legality aside, from a moral standpoint, couldn't second hand sales be considered the similar effect to pirating or buying bootlegs...cause if you think about it, if you buy from Gamestop or even Ebay, a used game, the copyright holders don't get any further sales from that. Instead, someone else gets the money and a "potential" profit gone, i use potential with assumption in mind btw....much like a factory owner in Asia, buying a game, then selling copies illegally, just on a more linear scale.

What i'm pointing out is, it's a legal way for someone to avoid paying copyright holders, yet still obtain it and for someone else to profit. One is legal, other is not yet they still share the same end game, the copyright owners getting nothing except the initial sale

 

[ImpulsE69]

When i was a kid, i used to pirate games, and the occasional movie. It probably cost a few companies a couple sales...maybe. Honestly i didn't have any disposable income, and if i didn't know a game was great before hand, i wasn't buying it....Demo's were not readily available as they are today.

Anyway, the reason i gave it up is simple...It's wrong. I started to look at it the same way i look at all other forms of stealing, and realized there's not a huge reason to do it. I stopped downloading songs, and just use youtube now if i have a hankering to listen to something online...

Also, i actually went back and bought some THQ games i had pirated...i played COH, and really enjoyed it. I actually haven't played the game since i bought it, but i just wanted to help out...not that it saved them in the end.

In the long run, i am sure they are losing a lot of sales, but not that many people have a ton of money to be dropping 50-60 bucks for new releases...though it could be effecting sales when the games drop to around 20 bucks...imo.

Yea, I've actually bought quite a few games in the last few years that I pirated back in the day because I liked them at the time. With the digital age, (PC) games don't have as short of a shelf life like in the old days where shelves had to be cleared for new stuff. Now, places like Steam and GoG can extend the life of new and old games alike.

@ Hexen: yes, and that discussion always goes the same way as this, except they can't spin the "illegal/immoral" side. Game companies are quickly putting a stop to that being an issue though. I've basically been told I'm going to Hell because I buy used on this board before. Some people...you just can't reach in their little bubble.

 

[Agent11]

2nd hand sales are completely different. They sold a product, someone bought it and resold it.

 

[Childs]

Anyway, the reason i gave it up is simple...It's wrong. I started to look at it the same way i look at all other forms of stealing, and realized there's not a huge reason to do it. I stopped downloading songs, and just use youtube now if i have a hankering to listen to something online...

Technically thats "theft" as well. Heck, if you play your music loud enough so that others can hear it you have to pay. And not just the person playing the music, but the person walking by who hears it. So bottom line, you are evil.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Actually, if I recall correctly it's not anymore. Google reached an accord with the record companies, and they are paying for the use of that music. They of course pass that charge along to you in the form of tracking and advertisement.

I'm shocked there are so many people who feel it's perfectly okay to make someone else pay for their entertainment.

 

[Annisman*]

When i was a kid (okay 16-19 or so), i used to pirate games, and the occasional movie. It probably cost a few companies a couple sales...maybe. Honestly i didn't have any disposable income, and if i didn't know a game was great before hand, i wasn't buying it....Demo's were not readily available as they are today.

Anyway, the reason i gave it up is simple...It's wrong. I started to look at it the same way i look at all other forms of stealing, and realized there's not a huge reason to do it. I stopped downloading songs, and just use youtube now if i have a hankering to listen to something online...

Also, i actually went back and bought some THQ games i had pirated...i played COH, and really enjoyed it. I actually haven't played the game since i bought it, but i just wanted to help out...not that it saved them in the end.

In the long run, i am sure they are losing a lot of sales, but not that many people have a ton of money to be dropping 50-60 bucks for new releases...though it could be effecting sales when the games drop to around 20 bucks...imo.

But haven't you heard, there's nothing wrong with it at all.