How much do you think piracy is affecting the PC Gaming market?

[Annisman*]

WAIT - HOLD ON!

Some of you are asserting piracy is theft. It is not. This is not open for debate, copyright infringement and theft are 2 different things in every possible sense of the word, when you say piracy is theft you're simply wrong and the reasons have been clearly given many times over.

There is a pervasive idea around here that if you correct someone on this point that you must support piracy or think it's legal, and this is a deliberate misrepresentation of other peoples positions (a straw man) and that is monumentally frustrating to have people assert over and over again that you must condone piracy simply because you're correcting someone who is FACTUALLY wrong about something.

Just because someone corrects the theft/copyright issues DOES NOT MEAN THEY NECESSARILY SUPPORT PIRACY. I've skimmed through most of this thread and I can't find any examples of someone who says piracy is legal, or even saying that piracy is right.

It's completely unfair and unreasonable to conflate these 2 things, because some people such as myself believe that piracy is wrong (at least in some circumstances) but also acknowledge that piracy is not theft.

Right...got that through your skulls yet?

Good.

Now pay attention.

This is not just pedantic arguments for the sake of being right on the internet, there is actually a very good reason that some people correct this factually incorrect statement.

Some of us acknowledge that there's practical differences between theft and copyright infringement, in the case of theft goods (yes, or services) are removed and that is at some cost to the owner/provider, that cost always exists, so it's safe to say that stealing (theft) is always wrong.

However since copyright infringement does not impact the resources of the owner, but rather represents POTENTIAL lost revenue in the future, there is a LOGICAL and PRACTICAL difference in the harm or potential harm that piracy causes.

I can already hear you screaming at the top of your lungs "he's trying to justify piracy - rah rah rah", and before your emotion kicks in and destroys any ability to have an interesting discussion about this, let me remind you that I do not condone piracy.

What I'm saying is that logically that the harm done due to piracy is not comparable to the harm done with theft, there are circumstances where I would agree that no harm has been done when someone has pirated something, for example: if someone has already bought the game and the DRM is broken and they can't play. In that case piracy is a good thing, it allows legitimate customers to play a game they couldn't otherwise play.

Right...

And I know what's coming next...the same emotional crowd will respond with "he's saying that all piracy is like the example above, and that's not realistic - Rah rah rah!"

Look, I'm NOT saying that, the fact that I have to actually assert that explicitly here is really just a testament to a problem we have where so many people are emotionally clouded that they see one sentence they dislike and infer everything bad under the sun about that person.

Could you please stop doing that, stop straw manning peoples positions on piracy, just because someone asserts "piracy is not theft", doesn't mean they are saying it's legal, it doesn't mean they're saying it's not wrong, they're saying what they're saying "piracy is not theft" this is a FACT. If you want to know if that person condones piracy, then instead of assuming that why don't you just actually be polite and ask that person?

Wow, I actually have to take a step back and reconsider my position, or at least the way in which I approach things. You've certainly appealed to my intellectual half. I think there is one major flaw in what you are saying though.

Yes, stealing is wrong, but copyright infringement is also wrong, the effects of both are different I will own. One is certainly preferrable to the other but there are other options preferrable to both.

When we start making compromises and saying 'this is bad, but it's better than this other way' we are still left with a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place.

If I drink an entire bottle of Jack Daniels every night at home, nobody is the worse for it. But we can probably all agree that this is a bad thing, that will most likely result in poor health, premature death, drunkeness, failure to hold a job and family, and the other things that can stem from drunkeness. Am I to excuse this behavior because I don't use hard drugs ? Or because I've never assaulted somebody ?

It's dangerous to start making light of things because their effect seems mild. IMO wrong is wrong, black and white. I know many don't hold this view but it has helped me see things much clearer, and helps keep yourself from coming up with half baked excuses when that little thing called concious gets in the way when it's decision time.

 

[shortylickens]

I think this is somewhat similar to the gas crisis of the 70's.


There was no actual gasoline shortage. There was a PERCEIVED gasoline shortage. People lined up at the pumps to stockpile cuz they were afraid there wouldnt be any gasoline.
They CREATED a shortage by stockpiling, and the sellers got paranoid too. They limited sales to 5 or 10 gallons at a time. It only created more problems.

Publishers are the same way. Based on the perception of a piracy problem, they implemented DRM way out of line for the problem, imagined or real. Now you've got angry consumers looking to avoid being screwed over.
The number one reason people pirate today is to bypass annoying DRM.


Please note, gasoline and video games are not the same thing.
The similarity is in regards to problems getting blown out of proportion and new, more unpleasant issues being created as a side-effect.

 

[darkewaffle]

The number one reason people pirate today is to avoid paying for something.

That's more like it.

I've never once downloaded something because of DRM (and most people don't have the foggiest what that even is). I have however downloaded media because I simply didn't want to pay for it or because it's hard to find. Pretending DRM is the reason people pirate comes off as an absurd rationalization or a major lack of perspective.

 

[Annisman*]

That's more like it.

I've never once downloaded something because of DRM (and most people don't have the foggiest what that even is). I have however downloaded media because I simply didn't want to pay for it or because it's hard to find. Pretending DRM is the reason people pirate comes off as an absurd rationalization or a major lack of perspective.

Hey, at least you admit that's the reason.

Out of all the many reasons people pirate, this one at least makes the most sense. Though I think it sounds like the sleeziest, which is why I think many pirates opt to declaring many of the other reasons.

 

[Nebor]

Hey, at least you admit that's the reason.

Out of all the many reasons people pirate, this one at least makes the most sense. Though I think it sounds like the sleeziest, which is why I think many pirates opt to declaring many of the other reasons.

This.

Also, lulz at the huge "I'm not a thief" rant above. Facts schmacts, if you take something that isn't yours to take, you're a thief.

 

[nickbits]

SWIM pirate because of ease of supply.

 

[SMOGZINN]

When we start making compromises and saying 'this is bad, but it's better than this other way' we are still left with a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place.

But, but correctly identifying what is wrong IP infringement we can talk about ways to fix those specific problems. When we incorrectly label it theft we are left with little to work with other then increased criminalization.

Here are things I believe about piracy:
1. It is not as bad as IP holders would have us believe.
2. It is not as harmless as some others would have us believe.
3. We want to make sure that creative works are rewarded, and creative people are free to keep creating.
4. Less scarcity is a good thing.

These last two are the the hard parts.
I think that and end to scarcity is a good thing, and think that we need to avoid artificial limits that would inhibit that. I think it is possible to have no scarcity and reward creative works. I think that we need to collectively work at finding ways to reward creativity with out artificial scarcity. I think we have examples today that show us the direction we should be looking for those solutions. And I think piracy gives us some information about what works and what does not.

If I drink an entire bottle of Jack Daniels every night at home, nobody is the worse for it. But we can probably all agree that this is a bad thing, that will most likely result in poor health, premature death, drunkeness, failure to hold a job and family, and the other things that can stem from drunkeness.

Notice how no one would call you a murderer though. They are different things, with different solutions. We need to focus on the solutions to this specific problem and not try to call it something else which would lead us to the wrong answers.

 

[ImpulsE69]

You can't focus on the actual problem when people have deluded themselves into thinking that law has no bearing on what is actually happening. The self proclaimed law abiding citizens who don't want to understand actual law because they are guided by their own self righteous virtues (then try to condemn anyone who thinks differently). It's pretty funny. Arguing to points that 99% of the posters aren't saying.

Morals and values change over time. In some contexts even what is considered immoral is considered to be just. That isn't to say I remotely think piracy is just fine at this time, but in the end, it's just what the majority thinks that makes it right or wrong and that can change at any time.

If it wasn't for people who disagreed and went against the grain of thought of what is considered right and moral, the world would be a far scarier place than it is with some people who download things off the internet.

 

[AdamK47]

All of the 870+ PC games I own have been bought. Having a legal copy is the biggest motivator, but it isn't the only one. If a game is good then of course the developers who made the game deserve my money. Even if the money doesn't go directly to them and goes instead through a publisher. These people deserve recognition, success, and continued employment to continue making games. If great games don't sell, great development studios die.

Pay for the games you enjoy!

 

[Annisman*]

All of the 870+ PC games I own have been bought. Having a legal copy is the biggest motivator, but it isn't the only one. If a game is good then of course the developers who made the game deserve my money. Even if the money doesn't go directly to them and goes instead through a publisher. These people deserve recognition, success, and continued employment to continue making games. If great games don't sell, great development studios die.

Pay for the games you enjoy!

Well said, this is one of the reasons I didn't mind buying some games a second time on Steam that I already owned on a physical disc, like the STALKER games, and the Witcher. The more support we can give the good studios and developers the more we can expect them to treat us fairly and stay in business.

And that's alot of games Adam !

 

[GaiaHunter]

I'm mainly a consumer of MMORPGs these days.
Interestingly, MMORPGs fail everyday.
Interestingly they don't blame piracy or illegal servers.

IP infringement (see, it isn't called theft) has a big problem - the majority of the population doesn't see it as a crime. In fact many have done it at one point or another.

 

[ImpulsE69]

I'm mainly a consumer of MMORPGs these days.
Interestingly, MMORPGs fail everyday.
Interestingly they don't blame piracy or illegal servers.

IP infringement (see, it isn't called theft) has a big problem - the majority of the population doesn't see it as a crime. In fact many have done it at one point or another.

it's an interesting point. There are also many F2P games that fail as well. The truth is neither side really has solid numbers to back up their claims. I suppose it makes sense for a company to overreact (most do) to a what they see as a threat.

It's kind of like my company and all their "perceived we might get hacked in these 1000 different ways" so they put protocols in place that make their employees jobs very tedious when the fact is, if someone wants in, they WILL get in, but it is seen as necessary just in case to keep the every day script kiddy out.

The difference is if it starts affecting paying customers. The minute you make paying customers jump through hoops, you've lost a customer. Who do you care more about, your paying customers or the ones who may or may not pay?

...actually I recant that, as is seen in the countless "i preordered a crap game" threads, it's clear people are glutton for punishment and don't care about hoops and throwing their money away. Like the guy above with 870 games...that's not commendable, that's insane and points to other issues (no offense). Not that I can talk at all, but I've become MUCH more selective over the years as I've realized I won't ever play them to the end

 

[ThinClient]

The only reason I pirated something in the past was because there was no solid demo out to see if it was worth paying full price for. They almost always were shitty and not worth it and I can't remember a single pirated game that I actually finished.

If they want to charge me $60 for a 6-hour half-assed game, they can go fuck themselves.

 

[ImpulsE69]

This is why I think their thoughts and numbers are flawed.

Let's take Witcher 2 for instance since everyone likes to use them as an example.

They (just bogus numbers as i don't care to look up the exacts) claim they sold 1.5million copies, but 4 million people pirated it. Let's pretend the 4 million number was actually accurate.

Now, let's say they sold 4 million copies and 4 million people pirated it. They would not say, oh, a % of those 4 million people tried it then bought it, they would say, we sold 4 million copies, but we could have sold 8 million if people weren't pirating. This isn't an assumption, it is how every company does their pirating numbers.

 

[Dumac]

The only reason I pirated something in the past was because there was no solid demo out to see if it was worth paying full price for. They almost always were shitty and not worth it and I can't remember a single pirated game that I actually finished.

If they want to charge me $60 for a 6-hour half-assed game, they can go fuck themselves.

Oh, but a 30-min "Let's Play" covering the tutorial withing random screaming by PewDiePie is good enough! You don't need a demo

 

[ImpulsE69]

These days with Youtube and everyone and their brother thinking they are video stars, you don't really need a demo I've yay'd or nay'd quite a few games the last few years with the video walkthroughs. Sometimes, even $5 is too much if you want to prove a point to a publisher.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

I'm mainly a consumer of MMORPGs these days.
Interestingly, MMORPGs fail everyday.
Interestingly they don't blame piracy or illegal servers.

IP infringement (see, it isn't called theft) has a big problem - the majority of the population doesn't see it as a crime. In fact many have done it at one point or another.

No - it's not that they don't see it as a crime. Most people only really consider criminality in terms of how likely they are to get caught.

The problem is that they don't see it as unethical.

The only reason I pirated something in the past was because there was no solid demo out to see if it was worth paying full price for. They almost always were shitty and not worth it and I can't remember a single pirated game that I actually finished.

If they want to charge me $60 for a 6-hour half-assed game, they can go fuck themselves.

So let them go fuck themselves if that's how you feel. But don't pretend you had some right to a demo, much less the right to pirate it if there wasn't one.

 

[Childs]

That's more like it.

I've never once downloaded something because of DRM (and most people don't have the foggiest what that even is). I have however downloaded media because I simply didn't want to pay for it or because it's hard to find. Pretending DRM is the reason people pirate comes off as an absurd rationalization or a major lack of perspective.

Never downloaded a no cd crack? Back when they used CD checks, I used to get no cd cracks because the CD check was a hassle. Especially when you are as messy as I am and the CD could be under a pizza box or accidentally used as a coaster. I can see someone not wanting to deal with the DRM, although downloading the whole game is less defensible. Unless the defense is they simply dont care. And some people dont.

 

[ThinClient]

So let them go fuck themselves if that's how you feel. But don't pretend you had some right to a demo, much less the right to pirate it if there wasn't one.

You're pretty good with these strawman arguments.

Don't let the fact that I own most of the games I've ever pirated now that they're insanely old and on Steam or GOG dissuade you from preaching from your soapbox.

 

[ThinClient]

Oh, but a 30-min "Let's Play" covering the tutorial withing random screaming by PewDiePie is good enough! You don't need a demo

Right? You should just learn to like what you buy! The front of the box is good enough for you, you worthless paying customer!

 

[ThinClient]

Never downloaded a no cd crack? Back when they used CD checks, I used to get no cd cracks because the CD check was a hassle. Especially when you are as messy as I am and the CD could be under a pizza box or accidentally used as a coaster. I can see someone not wanting to deal with the DRM, although downloading the whole game is less defensible. Unless the defense is they simply dont care. And some people dont.

Yep, I did that a ton. CD in the drive? Pfff, fuck you, I have a HDD for a reason.

 

[Red Storm]

Right? You should just learn to like what you buy! The front of the box is good enough for you, you worthless paying customer!

That's not a valid excuse in this day and age. There are tons of gameplay videos out and user (not critic) reviews that would give you all the information you needed.

 

[blackened23]

That's not a valid excuse in this day and age. There are tons of gameplay videos out and user (not critic) reviews that would give you all the information you needed.

Yeah I have little sympathy for such arguments. This MAY have been a valid argument 15 years ago. Anyway, I respect someone who will just come out and admit that they don't want to pay for games, hey, at least someone is honest. But this is 2013. Game reviews are ALWAYS out on the day of, or even the week before release. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to download something if there is no demo.

This is aimed at no one here, but in general: I wish people would stop being disingenuous and come up with the most hilarious justifications such as "oh god EA is such a horrible corporation, their president punched my puppy blah blah blah blah *wah*" and just come out and say "I didn't want to pay". I'd have more respect for honesty. Instead of, its their fault I pirated XYZ game, there was no demo.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

You're pretty good with these strawman arguments.

Don't let the fact that I own most of the games I've ever pirated now that they're insanely old and on Steam or GOG dissuade you from preaching from your soapbox.

You said flat out "It didn't have a demo, so I pirated it". Heck, you even said they weren't worth buying, making you subsequent claim you bought them rather iffy.

The only reason I pirated something in the past was because there was no solid demo out to see if it was worth paying full price for. They almost always were shitty and not worth it and I can't remember a single pirated game that I actually finished.

The only way that's a strawman is if you're made out of straw.

 

[Necc]

Never downloaded a no cd crack? Back when they used CD checks, I used to get no cd cracks because the CD check was a hassle. Especially when you are as messy as I am and the CD could be under a pizza box or accidentally used as a coaster. I can see someone not wanting to deal with the DRM, although downloading the whole game is less defensible. Unless the defense is they simply dont care. And some people dont.

Once my Sorceress died due a cd check in Hardcore Diablo 2, CD started to spin 2 sec screen freeze and iwas kissing the floor. Fun times.. :|