How much GOD loves Us!

[tealk]

FREE WILL...you choose to go there...NOT Him. If you do not except him as you Lord and saviour.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: tealk
FREE WILL...

I already explained why this is a non-sequitur. Simply re-asserting your claim is not tantamount to a rebuttal.

NOT Him.

Again, if he knew that -- at the end of it all -- he would be casting me into the lake of fire, even before he allegedly created me, then what choice did I have? Could God's knowledge be wrong? If not, then all illusions of choice are just that: illusions.

If you do not except him as you Lord and saviour.

I require no lord or savior, thank you very much. Your god is no exception.

Besides, what do I need saving from? Your God's wrath? How ironic.

Wouldn't it seem much more reasonable that a God actually worthy of the moniker would create a universe where people didn't need saving from anything in the first place?

 

[NikolaeVarius]

I shall intervene for my .02 cents

"I contend that we are both atheists, I just happen to believe in one less god than you do. If you can explain to me why you reject all other possible gods, I will explain why I reject yours"

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: tealk
FREE WILL...

I already explained why this is a non-sequitur. Simply re-asserting your claim is not tantamount to a rebuttal.

NOT Him.

Again, if he knew that -- at the end of it all -- he would be casting me into the lake of fire, even before he allegedly created me, then what choice did I have? Could God's knowledge be wrong? If not, then all illusions of choice are just that: illusions.

If you do not except him as you Lord and saviour.

I require no lord or savior, thank you very much. Your god is no exception.

Besides, what do I need saving from? Your God's wrath? How ironic.

Wouldn't it seem much more reasonable that a God actually worthy of the moniker would create a universe where people didn't need saving from anything in the first place?

1. Saying God knows everything is correct, though it's incomplete. As you've pointed out, God can't know EVERYTHING if we are, in fact, self-determining. So, the only logical thing is that God knows everything that is knowable. Some people, spouses, long-time friends, etc, know each other so well they know what the other will do before they do it, and that is how I think of God in this case. God doesn't know everything per se, but he's so familiar with the way we and the universe operates that he can figure out what will happen, which is why he's able to give us prophecies, and why we can say God has a "plan" for our lives.

2. What we need saved from is ourselves. Sin is just what we call anything that God disapproves of, and, since God knows and wants what is best for us, we can also define sin as shooting ourselves in the feet. Yeah, God gets mad and has been known to do some smiting, but if you'll look at our silly book of superstitions, you'll see that the people are in outright rebellion for a while before he plagues them or whatever.

3. God intended a perfect world, and it was for a while, but somewhere along the line we decided we wanted to try our own thing, and since then we've needed saving from ourselves.

 

[HeXploiT]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: tealk

If God were to remove all the bad things in this world he would have to take away our will. Then we would be machines. Then consciousness would be moot. No God gave us a will so that we might choose life or death.

Quite simply, this is a non-sequitur -- ignoring for the moment the incongruency of free will existing in a world where some being infallibly foreknows the future.

There already exists a literally infinite set of actions that humans cannot do. We cannot see infrared. We cannot hear 50KHz frequencies. We cannot digest diamonds. We cannot travel faster than light. The list goes on.

It does not follow from these facts that we lack the free will to choose among the possible actions available to us, nor does it follow that we would be deprived our free will were the actions declared to be "sins" members of the set of actions impossible for us to accomplish.

All the sufferings of this world are temporary. There are millions of people in the world who have suffered, been tortured, raped and oppressed and they do not feel the need to blame God. Suffering is temporary.

Tell that to the souls your God has allegedly cast into the his lake of fire.

People might be murdered but God is the net for the soul. If you create a being with its own will rebellion is inevitable. Sin is inevitable and therefor suffering is inevitable. God knew this before he created us yet he has a plan to save those who will humbly seek him.

HA! That's hilarious. If God knows already that he will not save certain people, then he created them for the sole purpose of subjecting them to eternal torment. What kind of a sick, sadistic sonuvabitch would do such a thing?

God permits freedom of choice, and thus makes men morally responsible.
Maybe read about Job and you will learn a little about suffering.
By the way God suffered horribly as a man and he was sinless.
Any real historian worth his salt admits that Christ was a man who walked the earth. Read his word and ask yourself what man could say such things. I understand your resentment and anger but i tell you that you must look for the answers yourself. No one can force it upon you. If you don't ask it won't be given to you.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

1. Saying God knows everything is correct, though it's incomplete. As you've pointed out, God can't know EVERYTHING if we are, in fact, self-determining. So, the only logical thing is that God knows everything that is knowable. Some people, spouses, long-time friends, etc, know each other so well they know what the other will do before they do it, and that is how I think of God in this case. God doesn't know everything per se, but he's so familiar with the way we and the universe operates that he can figure out what will happen, which is why he's able to give us prophecies, and why we can say God has a "plan" for our lives.

You haven't been clear. Either God knows the final outcome of your eternal destiny or he does not. If he does not, I don't see how you can simultaneously assert that he has a plan -- unless you would concede that God's plan could turn out wrong. How often is God wrong, anyway?

2. What we need saved from is ourselves.

Says who?

Sin is just what we call anything that God disapproves of, and, since God knows and wants what is best for us, we can also define sin as shooting ourselves in the feet.

And he could also define sin such that nobody could commit it in the first place and therefore would not require and kind of "saving".

Yeah, God gets mad and has been known to do some smiting, but if you'll look at our silly book of superstitions, you'll see that the people are in outright rebellion for a while before he plagues them or whatever.

If God doesn't want rebellion, he could create a universe where rebellion isn't possible.

3. God intended a perfect world...

A "perfect" world? What does that mean? Would everything in such a world be perfectly round or perfectly square? Would all the lines be perfectly straight? Would people be perfect athletes and perfect academians? Would all dogs be the perfect breed? What breed is that?

How would things grow in this perfect world? Wouldn't they already be the perfect size if they were perfect? What is the perfect size?

I submit that "perfect" is an objectively meaningless term, because depending on the presupposed measurement, it could literally apply to anything or nothing.

and it was for a while

Oh, really? When was this?

but somewhere along the line we decided we wanted to try our own thing, and since then we've needed saving from ourselves.

Quite frankly, the idea that *I* would cast myself into a lake of fire for all eternity is absolutely preposterous. To assert that *I* bear the responsibility for such a fate is laughable to the utmost. It is your God that allegedly decided that this was the way things would work. As I said before, any God worthy of the moniker could create a universe where such an horrific circumstance was simply impossible to realize.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

1. Saying God knows everything is correct, though it's incomplete. As you've pointed out, God can't know EVERYTHING if we are, in fact, self-determining. So, the only logical thing is that God knows everything that is knowable. Some people, spouses, long-time friends, etc, know each other so well they know what the other will do before they do it, and that is how I think of God in this case. God doesn't know everything per se, but he's so familiar with the way we and the universe operates that he can figure out what will happen, which is why he's able to give us prophecies, and why we can say God has a "plan" for our lives.

You call that logical? So God isn't all knowing, he is just a really good guesser?

2. What we need saved from is ourselves. Sin is just what we call anything that God disapproves of, and, since God knows and wants what is best for us, we can also define sin as shooting ourselves in the feet. Yeah, God gets mad and has been known to do some smiting, but if you'll look at our silly book of superstitions, you'll see that the people are in outright rebellion for a while before he plagues them or whatever.

Ironic isn't it. God supposedly created us in his own image. Then again, its not so ironic if you really think about it. Man kills man. God kills man. Man commits horrible atrocities. God commits horrible atrocities. Man kills and hurts children. Man kills and hurts children.

3. God intended a perfect world, and it was for a while, but somewhere along the line we decided we wanted to try our own thing, and since then we've needed saving from ourselves.

So God screwed up when he made the world, is that it? He gave it his best shot but just couldn't pull it off, eh?

 

[wetcat007]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Where there is a Yin, there is a Yang.


NSFW

http://www.youporn.com


God bless them every one :laugh:

Now there's a good website! lol

 

[AVAFREAK182]

Originally posted by: NeuroSynapsis
if god loved my gf he wouldn't have given her polymyositis, fibromyalgia, arthritis, and a host of other diseases before the age of 9.


bastard.

Grow up. God loves everyone. Including you.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: AVAFREAK182

Originally posted by: NeuroSynapsis
if god loved my gf he wouldn't have given her polymyositis, fibromyalgia, arthritis, and a host of other diseases before the age of 9.


bastard.

Grow up. God loves everyone. Including you.

I thought a part of growing up was letting your imaginary friends go?

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

1. Saying God knows everything is correct, though it's incomplete. As you've pointed out, God can't know EVERYTHING if we are, in fact, self-determining. So, the only logical thing is that God knows everything that is knowable. Some people, spouses, long-time friends, etc, know each other so well they know what the other will do before they do it, and that is how I think of God in this case. God doesn't know everything per se, but he's so familiar with the way we and the universe operates that he can figure out what will happen, which is why he's able to give us prophecies, and why we can say God has a "plan" for our lives.

You haven't been clear. Either God knows the final outcome of your eternal destiny or he does not. If he does not, I don't see how you can simultaneously assert that he has a plan -- unless you would concede that God's plan could turn out wrong. How often is God wrong, anyway?

2. What we need saved from is ourselves.

Says who?

Sin is just what we call anything that God disapproves of, and, since God knows and wants what is best for us, we can also define sin as shooting ourselves in the feet.

And he could also define sin such that nobody could commit it in the first place and therefore would not require and kind of "saving".

Yeah, God gets mad and has been known to do some smiting, but if you'll look at our silly book of superstitions, you'll see that the people are in outright rebellion for a while before he plagues them or whatever.

If God doesn't want rebellion, he could create a universe where rebellion isn't possible.

3. God intended a perfect world...

A "perfect" world? What does that mean? Would everything in such a world be perfectly round or perfectly square? Would all the lines be perfectly straight? Would people be perfect athletes and perfect academians? Would all dogs be the perfect breed? What breed is that?

How would things grow in this perfect world? Wouldn't they already be the perfect size if they were perfect? What is the perfect size?

I submit that "perfect" is an objectively meaningless term, because depending on the presupposed measurement, it could literally apply to anything or nothing.

and it was for a while

Oh, really? When was this?

but somewhere along the line we decided we wanted to try our own thing, and since then we've needed saving from ourselves.

Quite frankly, the idea that *I* would cast myself into a lake of fire for all eternity is absolutely preposterous. To assert that *I* bear the responsibility for such a fate is laughable to the utmost. It is your God that allegedly decided that this was the way things would work. As I said before, any God worthy of the moniker could create a universe where such an horrific circumstance was simply impossible to realize.

1. Yeah, it does seem that God could be possibly be wrong, and that's the best answer I can give with my limited philosophical and theological understanding.

2. Yeah, God could just ignore sin, but really, why would you want to be around a bunch of people that don't respect you, that do drive you crazy with their unwillingness to learn and stubborness for the sake of stubborness?

(And if you're going to argue that perfect is a worthless term and get all "no-truth," ok, but you'd better stop arguing with me because my truth might just not be yours. My problem with relativism is simple: I ask are there absolute truths? You say no, ok, but why do you say that with absolute certainty if nothing is ever absolutely true? By your own admission you might not know anything at all.)

Of course nobody wants to be on fire for eternity, however there are a lot of people that want nothing to do with God. "Hell is the terrible compliment that God pays to human will," that's something a prof of mine says. Simply, if you don't want to be with God, he won't make you, so you go away out of the city, into the darkness, the void, hell. I don't think hell is a place of intentional pain, but it sucks so much because we were made to be with God, so it naturally hurts when we're entirely cut off and away from Him.

Why couldn't God make us so that we never want to sin? You know, I really don't know, and I'm ok with that for now. I don't claim all the answers, but I'll give you what I know and keep an open mind so I can get some more answers.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Perry404

God permits freedom of choice, and thus makes men morally responsible.

Not if God simultaneously possesses infallible exhaustive foreknowledge.

Maybe read about Job and you will learn a little about suffering.

Oh, you wanna talk about Job, eh? Sure. Let's.

In this "moral" story, we watch as God makes a bet with the devil, and in order to win it, He must stand by and allow Satan to have Job's servants and livestock killed, to have Job's son's house blown down, resulting in the deaths of all his children. His children, Perry. What were their crimes? Didn't God love them? Apparently He doesn't love them as much as He loves his own pride.

And of course, let us not forget the horrible afflictions of boils and sores that Job had to endure... for what? So that God could save face in front of the Devil? So that God could prove a point? Please. THIS is your God? THIS is the ideal that you worship?

Sorry, I don't take crazy pills.

By the way God suffered horribly as a man and he was sinless.

What kind of suffering can a God really endure? Moreover, you can't reasonably assert that he didn't WANT to go through his little ordeal. He's God. If he doesn't want to do something, he doesn't have to do it. You can't really call an welcomed/planned/invited experience "suffering." Suffering describes things that happen to us that we do NOT want.

Any real historian worth his salt admits that Christ was a man who walked the earth.

But no real historian worth his salt admits that we should automatically believe everything that was written about him.

Read his word and ask yourself what man could say such things.

Do think that I haven't read the Bible? Even several times over?

I understand your resentment and anger

Oh please, please... do elaborate on this one. I would love to hear your professional psychological evaluation of me -- a person you have never met in your life and only know from a handful of sentences on an internet discussion forum.

Go on. Show me how much you "understand".

...but i tell you that you must look for the answers yourself. No one can force it upon you. If you don't ask it won't be given to you.

I spent plenty of time asking. The problem is that there isn't somebody out there to answer.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

1. Yeah, it does seem that God could be possibly be wrong, and that's the best answer I can give with my limited philosophical and theological understanding.

Fine. Then his "plans" aren't much more than "hopes."

2. Yeah, God could just ignore sin, but really, why would you want to be around a bunch of people that don't respect you, that do drive you crazy with their unwillingness to learn and stubborness for the sake of stubborness?

It needn't be that way.

(And if you're going to argue that perfect is a worthless term and get all "no-truth," ok, but you'd better stop arguing with me because my truth might just not be yours. My problem with relativism is simple: I ask are there absolute truths? You say no, ok, but why do you say that with absolute certainty if nothing is ever absolutely true? By your own admission you might not know anything at all.)

I didn't say anything about absolute truths. I only said that the adjective "perfect" is objectively meaningless, and it is. "Objective" != "Absolute"

Of course nobody wants to be on fire for eternity, however there are a lot of people that want nothing to do with God.

People that want nothing to do with God must first be convinced that he exists.

"Hell is the terrible compliment that God pays to human will," that's something a prof of mine says. Simply, if you don't want to be with God, he won't make you, so you go away out of the city, into the darkness, the void, hell. I don't think hell is a place of intentional pain, but it sucks so much because we were made to be with God, so it naturally hurts when we're entirely cut off and away from Him.

I'd certainly prefer to be with God than in a lake of fire. The problem which your point totally ignores is that there isn't convincing reason to believe either exists.

Why couldn't God make us so that we never want to sin? You know, I really don't know, and I'm ok with that for now. I don't claim all the answers, but I'll give you what I know and keep an open mind so I can get some more answers.

Fine, but the point remains that if God didn't WANT sinners he wouldn't have created them.

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: Garth

Fine, but the point remains that if God didn't WANT sinners he wouldn't have created them.

Mmm, that assumes that God makes us who we are. I don't believe God is like a clockmaker that sets the world in motion and makes it so that everything happens exactly as he wants, because in that case we really are talking about a jerk of a god, which doesn't fit the rest of what I know. I don't think anyone is born a murderer, or even a pacifist for that matter. You're right, I don't know why people choose to do the stupid and terrible things they do, but I don't believe God likes it or has to have those people go the wrong way in order to fulfill some greater good. Yeah, good things sometimes come out of terrible things, but I don't think terrible things have to happen in order to have good things.

 

[NanoStuff]

The #1 reason I'm not Christian is that I can do bad things and not go to Christian hell

I can steal candy from children, say FUCK, or even FUCK what I want when I want, and at the end of it all I will just end up a happy corpse. Beats the hell out of an eternity in hell, who the hell would want to sign that agreement is beyond me.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

Originally posted by: Garth

Fine, but the point remains that if God didn't WANT sinners he wouldn't have created them.

Mmm, that assumes that God makes us who we are.

Well, he DID allegedly create the universe and the rules by which it operates. Thus, he allegedly decided what humans are and are not capable of doing. If he didn't want people to sin, he would've created a universe that included sinning among the set of actions humans couldn't do.

Suppose I gave my handgun to my infant nephew to play with, loaded and cocked, with a hair trigger. Should I be absolved of responsibility when the gun goes off in my nephew's hands? I mean, I didn't make the gun go off, right? It wasn't me that pulled the trigger.

No, if I really didn't want the gun to go off in my nephew's hands, I wouldn't have given it to him in the first place.

I don't believe God is like a clockmaker that sets the world in motion and makes it so that everything happens exactly as he wants, because in that case we really are talking about a jerk of a god, which doesn't fit the rest of what I know. I don't think anyone is born a murderer, or even a pacifist for that matter. You're right, I don't know why people choose to do the stupid and terrible things they do, but I don't believe God likes it or has to have those people go the wrong way in order to fulfill some greater good. Yeah, good things sometimes come out of terrible things, but I don't think terrible things have to happen in order to have good things.

Why do terrible things have to happen at all? Moreover, why must there be such dogmantic conditions and prerequisites set to qualify for forgiveness?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: NeuroSynapsis

Originally posted by: hiromizu
The only GOD is Yngwie.

negative.

Correct, everyone knows it's Satriani.

No, there is only one true god and while many think it's Lemmy the person, it's actually his warts.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: meltdown75
methinks Gag was diddled by a preist.

Nope, but it's good to see that you would not mind if you had been.

:laugh:

That comment clearly exemplifies your maturity level.

And clearly exemplifies your refusal to face the pertinent question. Why is 2000 years of continuing crimes and hundreds of thousands of victims okay just as long as it isn't you?

And who is saying it is "okay", other than you, in your persistent attempts to continue trolling? Clearly you have evolved beyond the scope of these fairy tales. Why do you continue to make it your e-crusade to bandy about with us inferior believers?

The church says it's ok since they didn't do anything about it, same goes for Jehovas Witnesses who have their own kangaroo courts and advise the children to forget about it.

I don't know what it is about religion attracting pedophiles but i think it's mainly because repression doesn't WORK.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: AVAFREAK182

Originally posted by: NeuroSynapsis
if god loved my gf he wouldn't have given her polymyositis, fibromyalgia, arthritis, and a host of other diseases before the age of 9.


bastard.

Grow up. God loves everyone. Including you.

YOU grow up, god hates everyone, including you.

I know god and god really don't like you, so i guess you're going to hel son (and no, i didn't misspell hel)

 

[Corbett]

I think that has to be one of the best portayals of how much God loves us I have ever seen in skit format. Amazing.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Corbett
I think that has to be one of the best portayals of how much God loves us I have ever seen in skit format. Amazing.

Yeah, god loves his Children

NSFW (and not for people who just ate or are about to eat either, it's gory and very sad)

 

[TallBill]

I didn't realize that there were so many science fiction fans on anandtech.

 

[meltdown75]

To be able to simply respect the beliefs of others is a lost trait in this world.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: meltdown75
To be able to simply respect the beliefs of others is a lost trait in this world.

Its a two way street, and its a trait that never existed. At this point I view all gods based relgions as fictional works. Just as most people laugh at scientology (which was created by a science fiction author), I laugh at christianity. So how can I respect someone's beliefs?

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: meltdown75
To be able to simply respect the beliefs of others is a lost trait in this world.

Its a two way street, and its a trait that never existed. At this point I view all gods based relgions as fictional works. Just as most people laugh at scientology (which was created by a science fiction author), I laugh at christianity. So how can I respect someone's beliefs?

Surely equating them to fictional works and degrading them as "science fiction" is not one and the same though, or is it?

I guess being cool with everything is just a state of mind...