Originally posted by: Garth
Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
My responses are
bolded.
Originally posted by: Garth
Originally posted by: tealk
If God were to remove all the bad things in this world he would have to take away our will. Then we would be machines. Then consciousness would be moot. No God gave us a will so that we might choose life or death.
Quite simply, this is a non-sequitur -- ignoring for the moment the incongruency of free will existing in a world where some being infallibly foreknows the future.
There is no incongruity. Stop pretending there is.
Argument by assertion. Care to explain how events can be simultaneously known and undetermined?
A - By choosing to know, and choosing not to know.
There already exists a literally infinite set of actions that humans cannot do. We cannot see infrared. We cannot hear 50KHz frequencies. We cannot digest diamonds. We cannot travel faster than light. The list goes on.
It does not follow from these facts that we lack the free will to choose among the possible actions available to us, (of course) nor does it follow that we would be deprived our free will were the actions declared to be "sins" members of the set of actions impossible for us to accomplish.
Yes it does follow. Considering we are the source of bad things (sin). We are allowed to do stuff that does not adhere to God's will. If we could not physically do anything to violate God's will, we would be "machines" as tealk said.
Already addressed. Bald assertions are not arguments.
A - Under the same token,
your defined limit of free will does not match those set by the physics of our system. Your definition is your own definition.
All the sufferings of this world are temporary. There are millions of people in the world who have suffered, been tortured, raped and oppressed and they do not feel the need to blame God. Suffering is temporary.
Tell that to the souls your God has allegedly cast into the his lake of fire.
Don't be dense. You know he meant earthly suffering.
If he meant it, he would have said it.
A - Hell is not part of "this world". If you can get there, take some pictures for me.
If you aren't comfortable with the thought of your life on earth being the cake walk part of your existence, you'd better get right with God. That's not the only motivation, but it sure is compelling.
Argument by threat. Do you ever actually
reason?
A - Not my place to comment.
People might be murdered but God is the net for the soul. If you create a being with its own will rebellion is inevitable. Sin is inevitable and therefor suffering is inevitable. God knew this before he created us yet he has a plan to save those who will humbly seek him.
HA! That's hilarious. If God knows already that he will not save certain people, then he created them for the sole purpose of subjecting them to eternal torment. What kind of a sick, sadistic sonuvabitch would do such a thing?
Don't forget God only physically created two people. The rest were products of man's procreational ability. God enabled us to bring new beings into existence. Granted, it's up to him to endow the forming human with life, but the act of generation is our call.
You are invited to explain how that affects the veracity of my argument.
Are you saying that nobody except for Adam and Eve are God's creations? Would you claim that God didn't know who would exist in the future of his creation?
A - Nobody but Adam, Eve, and Jesus were of God's
perfect creation. Once Adam and Eve sinned (which was done prior to having children), we inherently were all sinners. And on the same token, we were all inherently of God's creation.
A2 - I think your next logical argument would be why would 2 perfect humans sin? Free will.
A3 - Then why were they given free will? Love.
You may have noticed the Bible says (2 Peter 3:9) that God is unwilling that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/b]
So? The verse is only another example of the Bible failing tests of rationality. Omnipotent beings get precisely what they want. Nothing happens
against the will of a being with unlimited power. So either the verse is false, or nobody does perish.
EDIT: Must have missed this one:
A - He is unwilling by love. Certainly things happen against the will of God...but does he want them to? Could he just stop them? Sure. He actually did it once and promised to never do it again...I guess that
doesn't go against himself when we see where we are today.
Not sure your ranting merited a response. People like you only see what they want to see.
Physician, heal thyself!
A - I think its safe to say we have 2 guilty parties there .