How much higher % to counter on job offer?

[z1ggy]

I will consult the Googlez as well, but I want ATOTers personal experience. I was given a job offer recently and it is lower than I asked - by quite a bit. How much is a respectable amount % wise to ask higher?

For what it's worth, they told me they would give me an end of year bonus to make up for lack of base salary, but for years 2+ that money would not be guaranteed.

Leaving out actual salary here because it's just not going to impress you baller ATOT playboy millionaires.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

It depends on whether or not you live your life by percentage points.

 

[xaeniac]

all jobs should have a "no go" price. How close it is it to your "no go" price.

 

[lykaon78]

The percentage is not relevant. You need to decide what your floor is that will allow you to be happy and don't take the job unless they can meet that floor.

Being bitter about your pay isn't going to help your performance at your new gig once the excitement of the new job wears off.

 

[z1ggy]

They come within 5% when you factor in that bonus.

 

[homebrew2ny]

As someone who has had the position of having to hire in multiple jobs, and multiple position levels (including low hourly up to higher salaried positions) i can offer my 2...

Talking hourly, percentage wise there is a good bit of wiggle room. For example if offering 12 per hour, I may go as high as 15 or so depending on the specific situation. However with salaried positions, the percentage of wiggle room is smaller. If an initial offer of 50k was made, I may be inclined to accept a counter 5% or so higher but no more.

Keep in mind, after the initial interviews you have been weighed and measured and offered what they feel you are worth, perhaps a bit less but close to what they are willing to pay. If the offer was not close to what you want\need then there is almost zero chance you will get what you want.

 

[rcpratt]

Well, like you said, you can't really factor in the bonus. A one-time bonus is much different than a salary you're going to receive for several decades.

Is this a company you've been with for awhile? A new company? How do your expectations compare to the salary range on the job, if provided?

 

[3chordcharlie]

If they are well out it is fine to shoot straight:

"I appreciate the offer, but I cannot accept the job for less than X, with all the normal expectation of raises and bonuses in the future. If that's not possible right now/ for this position then I hope it will be in the future."

Is a perfectly reasonable statement, you've already passed their screening and you aren't insulting anyone. On occasion this may result in a substantially higher offer immediately but it is unlikely.

If you manage to squeeze them to pay you your minimum there will be a note in your file and your salary may be stuck at that level for a long time.

 

[z1ggy]

As someone who has had the position of having to hire in multiple jobs, and multiple position levels (including low hourly up to higher salaried positions) i can offer my 2...

Talking hourly, percentage wise there is a good bit of wiggle room. For example if offering 12 per hour, I may go as high as 15 or so depending on the specific situation. However with salaried positions, the percentage of wiggle room is smaller. If an initial offer of 50k was made, I may be inclined to accept a counter 5% or so higher but no more.

Keep in mind, after the initial interviews you have been weighed and measured and offered what they feel you are worth, perhaps a bit less but close to what they are willing to pay. If the offer was not close to what you want\need then there is almost zero chance you will get what you want.

Basically he told me that they respected my salary requirement based on how much I made and what the cost of living is in that area. He said he felt with the guaranteed bonus, that they came close to my figure, as I said.. They come within 5%. He also noted that they generally always give bonuses at the end of the year. How much of a bonus? I'm not sure but it's something I will ask when I talk to him again.

Additionally, one thing that I have to factor in is my current job salary. I firmly believe that my company "over pays" it's younger people to keep them around. So my salary requirement for this new job based on what I make now could potentially be inflated.

Well, like you said, you can't really factor in the bonus. A one-time bonus is much different than a salary you're going to receive for several decades.

Is this a company you've been with for awhile? A new company? How do your expectations compare to the salary range on the job, if provided?

This is a brand new company, in a neighboring state with a fairly higher cost of living. Rent is generally 15-40% higher depending where you look.

I'm not sure how to find the range of this position. It's for Application Engineer, but when I looked online all those postings are for computer/IT type jobs. This is such a small company that "Application Engineer" performs tons of different functions, but the main product this company makes are motors & generators.

 

[Uppsala9496]

From my experience.
Year one bonus was nice and they kept their word. Year 2 and 3 it was much smaller because of excuses. So keep that in mind. It took me 5 years to get back to what I made in year one after the bonus.
In hindsight I should never have taken the position.
Oh and I believe bonuses are taxed at a higher rate than your salary.

 

[CraKaJaX]

From my experience.
Year one bonus was nice and they kept their word. Year 2 and 3 it was much smaller because of excuses. So keep that in mind. It took me 5 years to get back to what I made in year one after the bonus.
In hindsight I should never have taken the position.
Oh and I believe bonuses are taxed at a higher rate than your salary.

From what I recall, my signing bonus with my new company was taxed just over ~40% just over 2 years ago. That's speaking for the glorious state of NY. D:

 

[cbrunny]

I'd never take a bonus in lieu of salary unless there was a good reason. This isn't a good reason, imo.

I agree with posters above - counter with what your minimum is. There's a reason that's your minimum, and hopefully it isn't just ego bs.

 

[purbeast0]

if what you asked for was your bottom dollar, then walk.

if what you asked for had some wiggle room, counter with your bottom dollar. if they don't meet it, then walk.

bonuses are just that - bonuses. and by their very nature, they are not guaranteed, unless it is a signing bonus. i got a $10k signing bonus when i landed my current job, it was pretty nice, even if it was just under $6k after taxes.

remember, they aren't doing you a favor for hiring you. you're doing them a favor for working for them. once i changed my mindset to that (and have the skills to back it up) my salary increased big time.

while i'm not looking for a new job, i constantly get recruiters and people calling me, and i'm always open to hear about possible opportunities. now a days i pretty much ask them immediately what the salary range is because i don't want to waste anyone's time on a 30 minute phone screen just to find out the job wouldn't even come close to paying what i currently make.

EDIT:

it also baffles me how cheap companies are now a days, and how they don't understand that an extra $5k or $10k annually will make their employees so much happier and will help with production. they don't understand that spending some extra money up front will save you a lot more in the long run.

also how companies now a days are trying to get talent for as cheap as possible, is a big reason so many companies are poorly ran. it's because you get what you pay for. i'm in the software industry and you see it EVERYwhere. i mean software now a days is buggy as shit, and a lot of that has to do with paying for mediocore/poor talent instead of spending a little more for top talent. i see it daily.

 

[rcpratt]

Oh and I believe bonuses are taxed at a higher rate than your salary.

Taxes might be withheld from your bonus at a higher rate, but they're not taxed at a higher rate.

 

[purbeast0]

Basically he told me that they respected my salary requirement based on how much I made and what the cost of living is in that area. He said he felt with the guaranteed bonus, that they came close to my figure, as I said.. They come within 5%. He also noted that they generally always give bonuses at the end of the year. How much of a bonus? I'm not sure but it's something I will ask when I talk to him again.

Additionally, one thing that I have to factor in is my current job salary. I firmly believe that my company "over pays" it's younger people to keep them around. So my salary requirement for this new job based on what I make now could potentially be inflated.



This is a brand new company, in a neighboring state with a fairly higher cost of living. Rent is generally 15-40% higher depending where you look.

I'm not sure how to find the range of this position. It's for Application Engineer, but when I looked online all those postings are for computer/IT type jobs. This is such a small company that "Application Engineer" performs tons of different functions, but the main product this company makes are motors & generators.

this just sounds like the company is trying to be cheap and not pay. i'd pass based on that alone. the fact that even with a non-guaranteed bonus they are still 5% below your bottom line, i would turn that down in a heart beat.

i've been casually looking at jobs out in san diego (i'm in MD). i've found only 1 company out of probably a dozen or more that would pay more than what i am making now. i turned it down though because i did not like the whole proces and it's one of those HUGE companies and i really don't want any part in it. but that was the first company i interviewed with out there, so i thought i'd have no problems finding a salary i wanted.

there was also this really cool company i talked to that i could work from MD for few months while i got everything ready to move out. they were a startup too with 4 employees. they made me an offer for a lead developer that was literally less than 2x what i make now. i told them good luck in finding a lead developer with talent for that salary.

but there is not a chance in hell i would move somewhere that has a significantly higher cost of living and have a smaller salary. that just isn't happening. and i know they can pay more out there (i've talked to recruiters), they are just trying to not do it.

 

[CraKaJaX]

it also baffles me how cheap companies are now a days, and how they don't understand that an extra $5k or $10k annually will make their employees so much happier and will help with production. they don't understand that spending some extra money up front will save you a lot more in the long run.

also how companies now a days are trying to get talent for as cheap as possible, is a big reason so many companies are poorly ran. it's because you get what you pay for. i'm in the software industry and you see it EVERYwhere. i mean software now a days is buggy as shit, and a lot of that has to do with paying for mediocore/poor talent instead of spending a little more for top talent. i see it daily.

Completely agree. Part of the problem is that there are so many people who will take a position WITHOUT that extra 5-10k just because they need a job. Why would they hire you for 80k/yr when they could hire a guy with a few years less experience at 70k/yr? From my experience (power generation/utility industry), companies look at the immediate point in time - "Oh! We're saving 10k on this position!" rather than realizing the extra years of experience you have is worth well more than the 10k.

I'm currently in the works of arguing a promotion/title change because of level of experience. According to 'the book', I should have the title of 'lead engineer' rather than 'associate engineer' after 5 years of experience, which I hit this past December. With that, I should also be seeing a raise. Finding the correct person to talk to and actually making this happen in a giant company is near god damn impossible. That's what happens when your HR, IT, etc. etc. etc. departments are farmed out across the pond. Which is another part of the job problem. Said big company sees they will save $xxx contracting out IT to India. They don't see the number of hours and the numerous amount of problems that their employees now deal with because of it. Sadly, it's all about the immediate savings at a given point in time.

 

[z1ggy]

From my experience.
Year one bonus was nice and they kept their word. Year 2 and 3 it was much smaller because of excuses. So keep that in mind. It took me 5 years to get back to what I made in year one after the bonus.
In hindsight I should never have taken the position.
Oh and I believe bonuses are taxed at a higher rate than your salary.

I guess at this point, I want out of my current job so bad, taking a minor paycut to not contemplate suicide on a regular basis is worth it.

Kidding of course, but I really do hate how this company is run. I'm just over it and I think getting out and getting more experience doing some different things will be more beneficial to me long term.

 

[Ancalagon44]

Cost of living is higher in the state where they work and yet the salary doesn't meet your requirements? I would walk based on that.

To give a more specific answer - calculate what your expenses would be if you moved to that state, including the new higher rental. Add the difference between your currently monthly expenses and your projected monthly expenses to your current salary. If the figure comes out greater than what they are offering you, then walk away. If it is less, then you could consider it.

Also - what sort of percentage is the salary you requested higher than your current salary? Is it 20% more? 5% more?

One more thing - if they claim that they come close when you consider the bonus, make sure that the bonus is written down in the contract and guaranteed not only for your first year but for every year after that, and that the bonus will escalate in line with any raises you receive.

 

[z1ggy]

if what you asked for was your bottom dollar, then walk.

The biggest issue with my current job is intangible. It's such a specific niche industry that the longer I stay here, the harder it is to ever leave. This new company would have me doing much more of a "generic" thing, so if I wanted to move again in a few years, I personally think it would be much easier.

I want to trust this company. I tend to naturally be an a person who does not trust executive people easily. The president of the company told me that in his entire 25 years at this place, only 2 people have ever left (other than retirement). The Exec. VP told me in his 14 years there, they haven't missed a bonus once.... Again, how much this is apparently depends on performance, etc.

I'd hate to miss a good opportunity because of a few grand, but I also don't want to substantially cut my cash flow. With out the bonus of any type, it's looking like my monthly cashflow (assuming I had a roommate) would go down by about $100-200, mainly due to higher rent.

 

[purbeast0]

Completely agree. Part of the problem is that there are so many people who will take a position WITHOUT that extra 5-10k just because they need a job. Why would they hire you for 80k/yr when they could hire a guy with a few years less experience at 70k/yr? From my experience (power generation/utility industry), companies look at the immediate point in time - "Oh! We're saving 10k on this position!" rather than realizing the extra years of experience you have is worth well more than the 10k.

I'm currently in the works of arguing a promotion/title change because of level of experience. According to 'the book', I should have the title of 'lead engineer' rather than 'associate engineer' after 5 years of experience, which I hit this past December. With that, I should also be seeing a raise. Finding the correct person to talk to and actually making this happen in a giant company is near god damn impossible. That's what happens when your HR, IT, etc. etc. etc. departments are farmed out across the pond. Which is another part of the job problem. Said big company sees they will save $xxx contracting out IT to India. They don't see the number of hours and the numerous amount of problems that their employees now deal with because of it. Sadly, it's all about the immediate savings at a given point in time.

the company i work for is like 140~ or so. i don't think i could work for a company larger than this.

when i hit my 10 year mark i went and talked to them come raise time. every year we get raises at the end of the year, so around christmas i went and talked about getting a bigger raise this year since i'm considered senior now, etc.

when it came raise time, i got a significantly higher raise than normal. then a few days later one of the owners pulled me aside and told me they were also promoting me to senior software architect. i still do developer tasks but i think they did that so they could bill me at a higher rate as well.

a well run company knows how to take care of their employees though. the problem is there are so few of them now a days.

 

[purbeast0]

The biggest issue with my current job is intangible. It's such a specific niche industry that the longer I stay here, the harder it is to ever leave. This new company would have me doing much more of a "generic" thing, so if I wanted to move again in a few years, I personally think it would be much easier.

I want to trust this company. I tend to naturally be an a person who does not trust executive people easily. The president of the company told me that in his entire 25 years at this place, only 2 people have ever left (other than retirement). The Exec. VP told me in his 14 years there, they haven't missed a bonus once.... Again, how much this is apparently depends on performance, etc.

I'd hate to miss a good opportunity because of a few grand, but I also don't want to substantially cut my cash flow. With out the bonus of any type, it's looking like my monthly cashflow (assuming I had a roommate) would go down by about $100-200, mainly due to higher rent.

none of this really matters if they can't meet your bottom dollar. if you are kind of feeling like you still want to work there even though they aren't at your bottom dollar, then that means they aren't at your bottom dollar.

i do know what you mean about being pigeon holed though. that is a big reason i left my first job out of school. i was doing c++ and an inhouse language for 5 years, not learning anything new. i knew i had to get out and start getting more experience. but because of that, i also knew i couldn't go ask for $90k somewhere due to my lack of experience. so i dialed back my expectations a bit and found a gig that suited me.

now 6 years later after leaving my first job i'm making more than 3x what the that company was paying me when i started there.

 

[z1ggy]

Cost of living is higher in the state where they work and yet the salary doesn't meet your requirements? I would walk based on that.

To give a more specific answer - calculate what your expenses would be if you moved to that state, including the new higher rental. Add the difference between your currently monthly expenses and your projected monthly expenses to your current salary. If the figure comes out greater than what they are offering you, then walk away. If it is less, then you could consider it.

Also - what sort of percentage is the salary you requested higher than your current salary? Is it 20% more? 5% more?

One more thing - if they claim that they come close when you consider the bonus, make sure that the bonus is written down in the contract and guaranteed not only for your first year but for every year after that, and that the bonus will escalate in line with any raises you receive.

I'll answer the most important part of this post: What I asked for was 17% higher than what I make right now. The base they offered me was only 3% higher than what I make now. According to salary wizard, the area I would be living in, is 5% more costly overall. However, I honestly do not believe that at all, seeing as rent in general is $200-600 more dollars per month for comparable living arrangements. Cheaper gas, groceries, & utilities can't possibly come close to mitigating that cost.

So that 17% figure was basically based in many factors, one was that 200-600 dollar figure, plus I gave myself something like a 6% raise because I would normally get one this summer here at my current job, plus I feel like if a person switches jobs, you are generally supposed to switch to make more money.. so...

 

[z1ggy]

none of this really matters if they can't meet your bottom dollar. if you are kind of feeling like you still want to work there even though they aren't at your bottom dollar, then that means they aren't at your bottom dollar.

i do know what you mean about being pigeon holed though. that is a big reason i left my first job out of school. i was doing c++ and an inhouse language for 5 years, not learning anything new. i knew i had to get out and start getting more experience. but because of that, i also knew i couldn't go ask for $90k somewhere due to my lack of experience. so i dialed back my expectations a bit and found a gig that suited me.

now 6 years later after leaving my first job i'm making more than 3x what the that company was paying me when i started there.

You basically hit the nail on the head. I honestly feel like I am not as knowledgeable and valued as I should be given the number of years I've been working. I am young enough where I can recover the salary loss later on. I may have to take a slightly lower salary, or at least lower my perceived value due to this.

Basically the job I do now is either a place you stay for 2-3 yrs and gtfo, or you stay for life (probably because you get trapped).

 

[gorcorps]

I'll answer the most important part of this post: What I asked for was 17% higher than what I make right now. The base they offered me was only 3% higher than what I make now. According to salary wizard, the area I would be living in, is 5% more costly overall. However, I honestly do not believe that at all, seeing as rent in general is $200-600 more dollars per month for comparable living arrangements. Cheaper gas, groceries, & utilities can't possibly come close to mitigating that cost.

So that 17% figure was basically based in many factors, one was that 200-600 dollar figure, plus I gave myself something like a 6% raise because I would normally get one this summer here at my current job, plus I feel like if a person switches jobs, you are generally supposed to switch to make more money.. so...

All of these things are what you should be telling them when you ask for more. If you know you'd be getting a 6% raise AND the area is 5% more expensive, then asking to meet that at a minimum (without bonus) should be a given. People are much more likely to offer you more if you prove you've crunched the numbers and aren't just asking for more to see how far you could get. I've been told in the past by potential employers that they didn't realize the cost of living was such a big impact of what I was asking for until I told them why I thought I deserved $X amount over what I currently make. They might not be able to match you still, but it's worth a shot explaining your situation.

Like many others have said, bonuses are never guaranteed. I tend to shy away from companies who try to claim bonuses as part of a wage because it's a very easy way for them to "cut pay" without actually cutting pay. If they were that confident the bonus was guaranteed, then it'd be a part of the salary already.

 

[z1ggy]

All of these things are what you should be telling them when you ask for more. If you know you'd be getting a 6% raise AND the area is 5% more expensive, then asking to meet that at a minimum (without bonus) should be a given. People are much more likely to offer you more if you prove you've crunched the numbers and aren't just asking for more to see how far you could get. I've been told in the past by potential employers that they didn't realize the cost of living was such a big impact of what I was asking for until I told them why I thought I deserved $X amount over what I currently make. They might not be able to match you still, but it's worth a shot explaining your situation.

Like many others have said, bonuses are never guaranteed. I tend to shy away from companies who try to claim bonuses as part of a wage because it's a very easy way for them to "cut pay" without actually cutting pay. If they were that confident the bonus was guaranteed, then it'd be a part of the salary already.

I guess it all comes down to if my current salary is inflated or average relative to what other people in my profession with my experience make.

I think I am going to push back on it a little bit and ask them how much the typical range for the yearly bonus is. If I could find a place to live that's closer to that $200 more expensive per month than what I pay now, I think getting an extra 2% of out of them on my base could be sufficient to not cut my cashflow.