How much land should Russia lose to Ukraine as war reparations?

[Lezunto]

I don't know if the UN could force the removal of Putin. But the rest of Pens1566's post I agree with.

Even though there was no punishment set for the U.S. after the unneeded 2003 invasion of Iraq. Just where were all those weapons of mass destruction?

And I don't recall any serious discussions about removing George W. Bush.

 

[Atari2600]

What are your thoughts?

What do you think of Ireland and the middle east?

 

[zinfamous]

I don't know if the UN could force the removal of Putin. But the rest of Pens1566's post I agree with.

Even though there was no punishment set for the U.S. after the unneeded 2003 invasion of Iraq. Just where were all those weapons of mass destruction?

And I don't recall any serious discussions about removing George W. Bush.

what should be discussed about having removed George W Bush? Did he commit any crimes? Was he ever charged with any crimes? What would precipitate such an event? Remember that we aren't even allowed to discuss hypotheticals about someone without that someone having actually been charged with some crimes, let alone tried and convicted of some crime. ...because reasons.

but why are you saying Bush was charged with crimes? I don't recall that ever happening.

 

[Moonbeam]

Reparations for WW1 basically set the stage for WW2. You dont want to impose reparations involving land grabs on any powerful country regardless of how weak or defeated it may seem to be.

Was reading the thread to see if anybody mentioned this.

The idea behind punishment is to create fear of acting badly but fear creates hate. Thus we create what we fear. Now the world is run by creating threat that creates fear that creates hate that creates threat. And we will continue down this path until we realize that all hate is the hate of self.

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

>>We ARE dealing with a nuclear country. And it is not certain that they will survive their own internal pressure after such a colossal failure.

I'm glad you mentioned the whole nuclear issue. Ukraine had nuclear weapons until the USA convinced it to give them up in return for promises of peace from Russia. Specifically, Ukraine had 176 ICBM missiles with between 6 and 10 warheads each. They had a full 1/3 of the nukes that had belonged to the Soviet Union prior to its breakup. In 1994, bowing to political pressure from the USA and others, Ukraine agreed to destroy their nuclear warheads in exchange for signed promises of peace.

Of course, you can see where THAT led to over the long term. In reality, peace would have been achieved by Ukraine holding onto their nuclear deterrent.

Because the U.S.A. brokered the whole "nukes for peace" program, we are ultimately to blame for this war happening. The idea that our leaders in the mid 90's thought that they could somehow ensure peace by removing nukes from Ukraine is counter intuitive. (If that's the case, why do WE still have nukes? Hmm?) So yes, I feel a sense of responsibility for every single murder and genocide that is happening in Ukraine, because I realize that they could have easily been prevented.

 

[zinfamous]

>>We ARE dealing with a nuclear country. And it is not certain that they will survive their own internal pressure after such a colossal failure.

I'm glad you mentioned the whole nuclear issue. Ukraine had nuclear weapons until the USA convinced it to give them up in return for promises of peace from Russia. Specifically, Ukraine had 176 ICBM missiles with between 6 and 10 warheads each. They had a full 1/3 of the nukes that had belonged to the Soviet Union prior to its breakup. In 1994, bowing to political pressure from the USA and others, Ukraine agreed to destroy their nuclear warheads in exchange for signed promises of peace.

Of course, you can see where THAT led to over the long term. In reality, peace would have been achieved by Ukraine holding onto their nuclear deterrent.

Because the U.S.A. brokered the whole "nukes for peace" program, we are ultimately to blame for this war happening. The idea that our leaders in the mid 90's thought that they could somehow ensure peace by removing nukes from Ukraine is counter intuitive. (If that's the case, why do WE still have nukes? Hmm?) So yes, I feel a sense of responsibility for every single murder and genocide that is happening in Ukraine, because I realize that they could have easily been prevented.

Yes, it's terrible the way things worked out to today, but how is the US responsible for this war? We didn't create Putin. Ultimately, Russia has to fix Russia. The US and the rest of the west were pretty heavily involved in helping Russia join the rest of the modern world, but enough of them didn't seem to want it because Putin came to power anyway.

There's only so much interference and influence you can run from the outside if you really want to let sovereign nations establish and embrace their own legitimacy and participation within the modern world. It's pretty clear that the US much preferred the Gorbachev/Yeltsin progression, but then you either accept that there really wasn't any kind of leadership beyond them (As terrible as they both were), that could ever improve things, or you try to install some CIA puppets like we do in the rest of the world. This strategy has certainly never worked out for anyone, and trying so in nuclear-armed Russia was a known disaster at the time. The only real option, then, was to let Russia fix themselves, engage as they want.

 

[cytg111]

Problem is we need a proper deputification of Russia, tossed all the extreme right wingers and new curriculum in education… its gotta be by the roots, hard to do without going balls deep.

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

>>Yes, it's terrible the way things worked out to today, but how is the US responsible for this war?

Simple, we pressured Ukraine to give up their nuclear warheads - the only long term deterrent to war that they had over Russia. We did this to them in exhange for what turned out to be empty promises of peace.

 

[trenchfoot]

Having Russia become a true democracy is the goal that should be pursued by their own people. And in the true irony of it all, they should have a real one like the one we have where our own Republican party is now actively attempting to usurp and replace it with a dictatorship like the one Putin is operating in Russia. And it's our own oligarchs that are financing this slo-mo coup, just as Putin's oligarchs are supporting him so as to keep and ensure their continuing income of wealth.

I wonder if the majority of the people of Russia wouldn't mind exchanging all of the occupied lands in Ukraine including Crimea for a democratic form of gov't in which all of the people have an equal voice in how their gov't should be run.

Too bad that they allowed a mob boss like Putin to acquire and take total control of the nation the way he has. It will too bad for us too if we let this happen here in the USA.

This should be a very plain and glaring warning to those of us in America of what could happen if the Repubs, with their MAGA's, their racists, their supremacists, their religious fanatics, their corporate controlled corrupted judges and their tightly controlled sources of propaganda gain total control of the gov't.

 

[cytg111]

Having Russia become a true democracy is the goal that should be pursued by their own people.

How do we pressure nations towards democracy and freedoms? Sanctions right? Global economic pressure. Its not something that just happens from within or it woulda happened in NK long ago. Its possible to lock a nation down into total exclusion and butt rape its people to oblivion.
And sanctions is sort of hard when everyone is sucking Russian gas titty like a motherfucker. Plus Putin has spend decades to insulate Russia from this kind of pressure.
They need help.

 

[senseamp]

Democracy is under a big threat in the US too with our SCOTUS gutting voting rights.

 

[senseamp]

Double post.

 

[Drach]

All of Ukraine plus St Pete's, and maybe gift Moscow to China as a protectorate city-state.

Negative. It must include Kaliningrad at a minimum.

 

[zinfamous]

Negative. It must include Kaliningrad at a minimum.

no one wants that shithole, though.

 

[Lezunto]

what should be discussed about having removed George W Bush? Did he commit any crimes? Was he ever charged with any crimes? What would precipitate such an event? Remember that we aren't even allowed to discuss hypotheticals about someone without that someone having actually been charged with some crimes, let alone tried and convicted of some crime. ...because reasons.

but why are you saying Bush was charged with crimes? I don't recall that ever happening.

I guess you don't read much. There were many stories, summations and opinions published that claimed Dubya should have been charged with war crimes.

His military destroyed an innocent country. His soldiers committed torture. No democracy was created in Iraq. There were no WMD's in Iraq! The entire rationale for the invasion of Iraq was nothing but a vicious lie. And Iraq had nothing to do with the 9-11 attacks.

Bush Convicted of War Crimes in Absentia

The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission found George W. Bush guilty of war crimes in absentia for the illegal invasion of Iraq.

www.foreignpolicyjournal.com

And barely six months ago, George W. Bush himself, thanks to a slip of his tongue, admitted what most Middle East watchers learned long ago: That the invasion of Iraq was unnecessary, brutal and unjustified.

George Bush's Iraq-Ukraine Gaffe Sparks 'War Criminal' Debate

The former president accidentally referred to the "unjustified" invasion of Iraq while criticizing Russian and Vladimir Putin.

www.newsweek.com

 

[zinfamous]

I guess you don't read much. There were many stories, summations and opinions published that claimed Dubya should have been charged with war crimes.

His military destroyed an innocent country. His soldiers committed torture. No democracy was created in Iraq. There were no WMD's in Iraq! The entire rationale for the invasion of Iraq was nothing but a vicious lie. And Iraq had nothing to do with the 9-11 attacks.

Bush Convicted of War Crimes in Absentia

The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission found George W. Bush guilty of war crimes in absentia for the illegal invasion of Iraq.

www.foreignpolicyjournal.com

And barely six months ago, George W. Bush himself, thanks to a slip of his tongue, admitted what most Middle East watchers learned long ago: That the invasion of Iraq was unnecessary, brutal and unjustified.

George Bush's Iraq-Ukraine Gaffe Sparks 'War Criminal' Debate

The former president accidentally referred to the "unjustified" invasion of Iraq while criticizing Russian and Vladimir Putin.

www.newsweek.com

why are you discussing crimes as if George Bush was charged with crimes?

I don't recall him being charged with any crimes. Why are you saying that he was?

 

[Lezunto]

Try reading, dude. Dubya should have been charged with war crimes. Now, just where are all those dastardly WMD's stashed?

 

[pcgeek11]

I'm not even sure Russia should lose Crimea. The status of that region always seemed pretty arbitrary to me. I was OK with Russia hanging on to it before (no worse than the US having Guantanamo or Diego Garcia) , though now there seems to be a certain 'rough justice' if their unjustified aggression in this war results in them losing it, so I'm not really that bothered either way.

As far as losing other territory goes, there's clearly a possibility that the country, or 'Federation', could break up entirely as an indirect consequence of Putin's humiliation. Again, if it happens it happens, I see no reason to risk a continuation of war or a nuclear escalation, to try and bring it about by force.

Just for accuracy sake Diego Garcia is a part of the British Indian Ocean Territory or BIOT. We (The US) do have a cooperative with the BIOT and a support base located there. I was fortunate to spend 6 months in Diego Garcia during my around the world cruise. It is a nice place to be from...... A long way from.

 

[fskimospy]

I think there's a good case that GWB should have been charged with war crimes, Putin certainly should.

GWB never was and Putin never will be though because the leaders of nuclear states don't get brought up on war crimes.

 

[HomerJS]

The decision should be Ukraine's

 

[HomerJS]

GunsMadeAmericaFree: Guns permitted the slaughter of nearly millions of Native Americans and the subjugation of millions.

The Ukraine-Russo war isn't over yet and already you're trying to impose your will?

This is why so many countries despise the U.S. All your stance is going to do is create intense resentment among the Russians.

You are not after discussion .. you want domination.

@GunsMadeAmericaFree was for white male landowners. Just sayin'

 

[sdifox]

Henthforth all reference to Putin is changed to Poutine. That should be punishment enough.

 

[Boris Morozov]

Lol idiot thread

 

[cytg111]

Lol idiot thread

Yuri!! Never stop smoking!

 

[Commodus]

The areas stolen during this invasion, and Crimea if it isn't rescued by the time the shooting stops.

Ukraine and its allies should lead by example — don't engage in a tug-of-war over land. Russia could face other punishments, such as ongoing sanctions and demilitarization requirements, but the key is to teach the country to respect territorial ownership.

Besides, if we're going to abuse WWII metaphors, remember how angry certain Germans got in response to the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. We really don't need a rehash of this conflict 20 years later.