How settings affect Microstutter in Skyrim - HD 7970

ICDP

Senior member
Nov 15, 2012
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Given the recent interest in stutter from the HD 7xx0 range of cards I decided to put some effort into testing for myself. I found some very interesting (at least I think so) results.

This is using an un-modded Skyrim and the benchmark run lasted around 1 minute for each test. I used an outside part of the map, raining, near a wooded area with a tower structure. Here is an image of the location with me at the edge of the woods. I would walk towards a clump of bushes to the left of the tower, turn around in front of the tower and walk back towards the woods before doing a slow 180 turn and heading back for the tower along a the foot of the hill at the left. In total it took around 1 minute.




System config as follows.

Intel i7 2600K @ 4.7 GHz
16 GB DDR 1886 RAM
HD 7970 VTX3D X-Edition @ 1050/1425
Windows 7 64 bit Pro
12.11 b11 with Cap 2
Res: 2560x1600
Skyrim graphics all settings at max/ultra. 8X MSAA, FXAA on, 16X AF.

I ran three different tests with different settings using Radeonpro 1.1.1.0

Test 1. Vsync off, no triple buffering, flip queue size = default.

From test 1 it is clear that with these settings the stutter is unacceptable. When playing at these settings Skyrim is unplayable. This would I assume be the default setting used in any reviews and mirrors the findings of TechReport form their HD 7950 test.



Test 2. Vsync off, no triple buffering, flip queue size = 1.
Using RadeonPro I changed the flip queue size from default to 1. Immediately it is obvious how much of a difference this one single setting makes to the smoothness of the game. For me it was instantly noticeable how much smoother the experience was. Judge for yourselves.



Test 3. Vsync on, triple buffering on, flip queue size = 1.
Finally I tested after turning on vsync and triple buffering along with flip queue size = 1. As can be seen smoothness did improve by another small amount. Though it was not so dramatic that it was perceptible in game. There are some minor spikes but they aren't noticeable and could be simply the textures being loaded to VRAM (at a guess).



I was adamant that this whole stutter issue was all a load of BS because my own experience did not echo that of TechReport. In hindsight the subconscious reason for my stance was that I never use CCC to setup my game profiles for my AMD cards. I now realise in hindsight that is a fallacious data source to base my judgement on. I usually set vsync with triple buffering for my games with a flip queue size = 1. To be honest I do the same thing using NvidiaInspector on my GTX 680 system. It is just a force of habit I picked up over the years. This in turn meant I was circumventing any serious stutter issues before I noticed them. So my experience on the GTX 680 and HD 7970 was identical in regards to smoothness.

This of course does not take away anything from the fact that out of the box my HD 7970 is not smooth for Skyrim. I did a brief test using 12.7 drivers and got similar results. The only fix for me in Skyrim is to set a flip queue size to 1 using 3rd party software.

Disclaimer I only tested Skryim, this is not a blanket statement that all games will be the same.
 
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thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
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This of course does not take away anything from the fact that out of the box my HD 7970 is not smooth for Skyrim. I did a brief test using 12.7 drivers and got similar results. The only fix for me in Skyrim is to set a flip queue size to 1 using 3rd party software.

Disclaimer I only tested Skryim, this is not a blanket statement that all games will be the same.

Thank you for providing this information. :thumbsup:

So from your testing in this game, it may not be due to 12.11 drivers per se...could be a combination of game/driver/settings...

Can you produce stutter in the 680 with no vsync/triple buffer/flip queue size 0?
 

lavaheadache

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2005
6,893
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I suck at using radeon pro. I feel like I can almost never get custom profiles to load. esp. steam apps.
 

lavaheadache

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2005
6,893
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Thank you for providing this information. :thumbsup:

So from your testing in this game, it may not be due to 12.11 drivers per se...could be a combination of game/driver/settings...

Can you produce stutter in the 680 with no vsync/triple buffer/flip queue size 0?

I had the same stutter in Skyrim with a 580, 680 and a few different 7970's
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Ever since i could, i've always game with vsync and tripple buffering (for both NV and ATI gpus in the past) hence i never noticed MS that some ppl claim were rampant, i also did a lot of tests with settings n radeon pro recently and playing games with vsync/tripple buff off, there were noticeable hitches (nothing annoying) and a lot of screen tearing (which is very annoying).

AMD needs to make radeon pro's features official, since not everybody is keen on using vsync or third party aps, and it would certainly fix their issues with review sites running vsync/tripple off when they do benches.
 

ICDP

Senior member
Nov 15, 2012
707
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Thank you for providing this information. :thumbsup:

So from your testing in this game, it may not be due to 12.11 drivers per se...could be a combination of game/driver/settings...

Can you produce stutter in the 680 with no vsync/triple buffer/flip queue size 0?

I do think it is a game specific issue to be honest. Some game run great out of the box and some don't. I wonder if AMD can simply set a new Skyrim profile in the next CAP release that sets flip queue size to 1.
 

ZeroRift

Member
Apr 13, 2005
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I found some very interesting (at least I think so) results.

I think so too. Nice work! :thumbsup:

To be honest I do the same thing using NvidiaInspector on my GTX 680 system.

I admit I'm a bit of a n00b with nvinspector.... To which setting are you referring? Pre-rendered frames? I'd love to get more consistent frame times on my rig.

If MS can be addressed even partially using 3rd party tools (not sure how third party nvinspector actually is....), both NV and AMD should adopt these features sooner rather than later in their mainstream drivers.
 

ICDP

Senior member
Nov 15, 2012
707
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I think so too. Nice work! :thumbsup:

I admit I'm a bit of a n00b with nvinspector.... To which setting are you referring? Pre-rendered frames? I'd love to get more consistent frame times on my rig.

If MS can be addressed even partially using 3rd party tools (not sure how third party nvinspector actually is....), both NV and AMD should adopt these features sooner rather than later in their mainstream drivers.

Nvidia has max pre-rendered frames ahead control directly in the Nvidia control panel. You should mess with the settings to see what is good for you. There is no doubt about it the Nvidia CP gives far more options than the CCC equivalent. Though if you want even more control use Nvidiainspector or RadeonPro, they give access to even more options such as FPS caps and more FSAA options.
 

ZeroRift

Member
Apr 13, 2005
195
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Nvidia has max pre-rendered frames ahead control directly in the Nvidia control panel. You should mess with the settings to see what is good for you. There is no doubt about it the Nvidia CP gives far more options than the CCC equivalent. Though if you want even more control use Nvidiainspector or RadeonPro, they give access to even more options such as FPS caps and more FSAA options.

Oh, I knew it was there, I just wasn't sure if that was the setting you were referring to. Thank you for the info! I will do some tweaking when I get home.

I find it very interesting that the number of frames the GPU tries to buffer has such a dramatic impact on average frame time. Perhaps someone has already made this realization, but is it possible that the % of available GPU memory could be a factor here? I would think that throwing away a couple of useless frames would cost a negligible amount of frametime unless something terrible is happening with memory usage.

Maybe something like this is happening:

1) GPU is at 99% memory utilization.
2) GPU decides to pre-render 3 Frames due to available GPU time, but can't store 2 of them because of VRAM limits.
3) Instead of throwing one of them away (technically, it is never rendered) after 16.7ms, the GPU loads them into memory (renders them) as the memory becomes available, causing stutter.

Of course, this would mean that games that consume very little VRAM would (almost) never stutter. Does anyone have any information to support/revoke this hypothesis? (I would do the test myself, but I'm not at my PC)

Also: Can GPUs these days utilize system memory if they run out of VRAM? If so, that could also be a factor. (assuming that stuttering is, in fact, VRAM usage related)

What do you guys think?
 
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jimhsu

Senior member
Mar 22, 2009
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Does this also explain why Skyrim can become smoother after Alt-Tabbing out and back into the game? (using ENB and heavy textures)

From GPU-Z, I can see that Alt-Tabbing dumps a lot of video memory, which is presumably reallocated more intelligently when Alt-Tabbing back in. This points to a combination of driver issues and Skyrim memory allocation issues.
 

BoFox

Senior member
May 10, 2008
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Re:
ICDP said:
You can't start guessing about VRAM management IMHO, unless you are also guessing the 7xx0 memory management got worse from the 6870. I don't think the "never settle" drivers are the problem. I have tested earlier drivers back to 12.7 and they exhibit the same symptoms in Skyrim.

I made one single setting to flip queue size and Skyrim was totally transformed from stutterfest to smooth. See this thread for more info. It might point to an individual game profile issue for Skyrim given the testing from this thread.
Good point, thanks. About the VRAM management, it was interesting that HD 4850/4870 with only 512MB could manage 8x AA in some games while 9800GTX with the same 512MB capacity couldn't, at the same settings. More research was done on this to show that the Radeon cards generally needed less memory than the Nvidia cards, but that was a while ago...
 

yepp

Senior member
Jul 30, 2006
398
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My 7850 does not exhibiting any frame delivery issues, flip queue size = 1, helps a little. The effect is far minute then yours since I'm not getting any problems with flip queue size at default to begin with, though I take a slight hit in FPS with flip queue size = 1. And I'm certainly not suffering from the symptom Techreport is advocating, maybe Pitcarn isn't affected. Then again I'm at 1920x1080, you and Techreport are testing at a higher res.

Here's how I tested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj79q5oLm7o

Rig in sig, Skyrim is installed on a 1TB WD Caviar Blue, Win 7 64bit Pro, cat 12.11 b11, vanilla Skyrim with high res textures, max settings, 2xMSAA, SMAA@Ultra, 16xAF

vsync off, triple buffering off, flip queue size = default


vsync off, no triple buffering off, flip queue size = 1


vsync on, triple buffering on, flip queue size = 1


Getting the huge spikes at similar intervals so I was fairly accurate with my runs.

Here's the save file if anyone wishes to try and replicate my runs, I hit bench key and run right after the guy finishes speaking:

http://www.mediafire.com/?kod300m7v86saul
 
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