How sympathetic are you to libertarianism?

[Infohawk]

Personally, I am sympathetic but I think they go too far fiscally and socially. I don't think it's a moral obligation that we outlaw income tax or anything like that and I don't think people should be allowed to be polygamous. But I think the free market is generally a good thing and that people should be able to drug themselves into a coma if they want to.

What about you?

 

[sandorski]

Not much. Some Good Ideas, some Bad Ideas, some "WTF is wrong with you?" Ideas.

 

[Xonoahbin]

I consider myself a libertarian. People have to keep in mind that libertarianism is like any political perspective--there are extremes for it as well. People do frequently only notice the extreme libertarians, calling for some pretty cooky stuff if you ask me. It's like asking people if they like far-left or far-right lunatics; unless you're one of them, you're not that likely to sympathize. For libertarians, they just need some exposure with people who aren't so extreme. Until that happens, unfortunately, my political career will be under the Republican banner.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Xonoahbin
I consider myself a libertarian. People have to keep in mind that libertarianism is like any political perspective--there are extremes for it as well. People do frequently only notice the extreme libertarians, calling for some pretty cooky stuff if you ask me. It's like asking people if they like far-left or far-right lunatics; unless you're one of them, you're not that likely to sympathize. For libertarians, they just need some exposure with people who aren't so extreme. Until that happens, unfortunately, my political career will be under the Republican banner.

Political labels are becoming increasingly like product reviews on the internet. Only those with extreme opinions tend to make themselves heard.

There's not a lot of room nor welcome for libertarians under the Republican banner anymore. Despite the rhetoric, their policies are increasingly fiscally liberal and socially conservative, the exact opposite of libertarianism.

To the OP: Ron Paul is not IMO a good example of libertarianism. Not bad, but not good either. A better example would be someone like Harry Browne, RIP.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Xonoahbin
I consider myself a libertarian. Until that happens, unfortunately, my political career will be under the Republican banner.

I'm curious, why Republican over Democrat? That makes me think that the free market aspect of libertarianism is more important to you than the social freedom aspect. Is that true?

 

[Xonoahbin]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Xonoahbin
I consider myself a libertarian. Until that happens, unfortunately, my political career will be under the Republican banner.

I'm curious, why Republican over Democrat? That makes me think that the free market aspect of libertarianism is more important to you than the social freedom aspect. Is that true?

Well, the thing is that the Democrats are becoming known more and more for all of the crazy economic policies. The Republicans, who I agree with much more on economics, can really drive some stakes into the Democrats on that issue. If they were to back off, to augment their stance on economics, the Republicans could regain their legitimacy. I think the Republican Party needs some good leadership and as an up-and-coming politician (I hope,) I'd very much like to be there to change the course. Both parties are equally displaced from my beliefs, but the Republicans are kind of convenient to hop into if I'm looking for a place to be.

 

[RedChief]

I am very fiscally conservative and socially, well between conservative and moderate. I would take a Libertarian over any democrat and many republicans though because I understand that my personal liberty would not be infringed under a libertarian.

One interesting thing thought on the what is socially conservative/liberal. Abortion is a big decider if your liberal or conservative there but Libertarians who are considered socially liberal are also very anti-abortion. This is simply because the fetus has personal liberty that also must be protected.

 

[gingermeggs]

I consider myself a socialist democrate, but under the shamocracies most western countries live under I think there is little you can do with a vote and more you can do with your dollar and how you spend it- thats prolly why they don't give you many for your labours.
I believe there never has been a truly socialist government ever and most of the anti socialist fubar is the defence of crony-capitalist interest or authorian commy.
One day people will learn to put people first, not dollars or Ideology, it will be a better outcome long term, then hell(islamic theoracy) or high water(maoist communism) as for "free market" capitalism, it never was nor will be, it's an oxy-moron- birds of a feather flock together. Anyways I give you's the next twenty years to think about the two choices and hope you settle before those two extremes with my personal choice. The clock tics'

4 factors to winning a war!
1- numbers
2- rightuousness
3-firepower
4-suprise


stick with the even numbers for the peacefull win!

In the meantime pretend its all good and the chinese don't want to own america/uk.
Keep building a high-tech war machine instead of a reactive and adaptive defence force!
re post this in ten years! FTW

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: Xonoahbin
I consider myself a libertarian. People have to keep in mind that libertarianism is like any political perspective--there are extremes for it as well. People do frequently only notice the extreme libertarians, calling for some pretty cooky stuff if you ask me. It's like asking people if they like far-left or far-right lunatics; unless you're one of them, you're not that likely to sympathize. For libertarians, they just need some exposure with people who aren't so extreme. Until that happens, unfortunately, my political career will be under the Republican banner.

Trust me, you are not a libertarian.

 

[MotF Bane]

Libertarianism is about the closest I can find to a political party I like. Individual freedoms and responsibility, small government, free market.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Libertarianism is about the closest I can find to a political party I like. Individual freedoms and responsibility, small government, free market.

A mix of the freedoms that both Republicans and Democrats CLAIM to provide while they reach around and stab us in the back on the same issues.

Yes, it certainly does appeal.

 

[Insomniator]

Keep the corrupt, poorly run and poor executed government out of my damn life.

 

[spidey07]

Very sympathetic. A lot of great idea in there. How far it goes to the principals are really what draws the line for a lot of people. Like the whole "no public education" - I mean I can see the point, just don't know if I totally agree with it.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I don't think people should be allowed to be polygamous.

For discussions sake...


If, for example, 4 adults of their own will and desire, wish to spend their lives together why shouldn't they be able to?

How does it affect you negatively?

I think this is a big problem with this country in that others are always trying to push their beliefs and morals on others.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Very sympathetic. A lot of great idea in there. How far it goes to the principals are really what draws the line for a lot of people. Like the whole "no public education" - I mean I can see the point, just don't know if I totally agree with it.

I agree on the basics being provided to society. Health and education.

Past that though I tend to take a more individual responsibility and states rights approach.

Socially I am about as liberal as it could ever get, I'll be honest. I don't care what other people do peacefully.

 

[Phokus]

Used to be a libertarian, then i started reading more and learning that capitalism is more nuanced than i had originally thought

Books like these really changed my world view:

http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Sama...&qid=1248965816&sr=8-1

(edit: note, the book is not anti-capitalist either, it advocates free trade is great for developed nations, but spotty or downright bad for developing nations)

I had an intellectually lazy notion that all economists were more or less rightwing and they 'proved' that the free markets worked 100% of the time while government intervention was doomed to failure all the time until i read that book. Apparently economists are not 100% trickle down economics free market fundamentalists. And you don't have to be in order to be pro-market either. For example, 81% of US economists are in favor progressive taxation.

libertarians today are like the communists of yesterday, it's a utopian ideology that works great in 'theory' but has lots of problems in the real world. You pretty much have to believe that everyone is a completely rational actor, there's no such thing as information asymmetry, and there are no such things as market failures to be a true libertarian or that while markets can sometimes fail, government intervention makes it worse.

Edit: also, contributions by economists like joe stiglitz on such ideas like information asymmetry really helped shape my view

Also, voted 'ron paul is an idiot', none of the other choices reflect me ('other' is too vague)

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Xonoahbin
I consider myself a libertarian. Until that happens, unfortunately, my political career will be under the Republican banner.

I'm curious, why Republican over Democrat? That makes me think that the free market aspect of libertarianism is more important to you than the social freedom aspect. Is that true?

This is actually true for me, but mostly because it's been the focus of my education/teaching over the past 5 years. In other words, it's simply where the majority of my attention is. So despite being fiscally conservative and what I would call "socially don't give a damn," if I had to make a choice between the two, I'd choose fiscal conservatism.

Of course, I believe the two are rather complimentary, so I don't know why I have to make such a choice.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I don't think people should be allowed to be polygamous.

For discussions sake...


If, for example, 4 adults of their own will and desire, wish to spend their lives together why shouldn't they be able to?

How does it affect you negatively?

I think this is a big problem with this country in that others are always trying to push their beliefs and morals on others.

It affects society negatively by skewing potential mating options. I don't like the idea of a society with 20% of the men unable to find a mate and becoming violent and restless.

As a more general issue, I just don't sympathize with the extreme libertarian view that every man is an island. We are social animals. We have a culture. Let's be reasonable about what that culture and our values are, but we to a large extent we are in this together. That's also why I'm against the extreme libertarian view that there should be no public education. I want all my countrymen to have basic education and not some crazy home-schooled/religious nonsense. The strength of our democracy relies in at least some basic level of homogeneity in experience and culture.

I think this is a big problem with this country in that others are always trying to push their beliefs and morals on others.

That's generally true but everyone has a line somewhere, for example not allowing sex with animals.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

As a Republican and a fiscal and social conservative, I would welcome most of the reasonable Libertarians. I don't know too much about all of their views (there seems to be a wide range of types who call themselves "Libertarians"), but from what I have seen, they are generally fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I'd rather have a conservative/liberal than a liberal/liberal.

Ron Paul is the type of Libertarian that I would support, for example.

 

[JEDIYoda]

personally I have nothing against Librarians.

 

[Dissipate]

Libertarianism as it is practiced in the U.S. is a Christian fascist movement consisting of creationist loons who would murder their kids if a voice in their head told them to.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I don't think people should be allowed to be polygamous.

For discussions sake...


If, for example, 4 adults of their own will and desire, wish to spend their lives together why shouldn't they be able to?

How does it affect you negatively?

I think this is a big problem with this country in that others are always trying to push their beliefs and morals on others.

It affects society negatively by skewing potential mating options. I don't like the idea of a society with 20% of the men unable to find a mate and becoming violent and restless.

As a more general issue, I just don't sympathize with the extreme libertarian view that every man is an island. We are social animals. We have a culture. Let's be reasonable about what that culture and our values are, but we to a large extent we are in this together. That's also why I'm against the extreme libertarian view that there should be no public education. I want all my countrymen to have basic education and not some crazy home-schooled/religious nonsense. The strength of our democracy relies in at least some basic level of homogeneity in experience and culture.

I think this is a big problem with this country in that others are always trying to push their beliefs and morals on others.

That's generally true but everyone has a line somewhere, for example not allowing sex with animals.

If a two person relationship is more attractive than a multiple partner relationship, then people will choose it.

I don't know why you assume people will become violent if there is polygamy.

You could use the same argument and say we shouldn't allow multi-generational households because it will destroy the economy by reducing demand for housing and utilities.

In fact, many people in societies these days are in at least open relationships, if not living together.

Also you say that a portion of men would be unable to find a mate but let me present these arguments.

1) Already some men can't find mates, is it the governments job to try and make it easier for them too?

2) Why can't the relationship have 2 men and 2 women living together, working, and loving each other?

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Libertarianism as it is practiced in the U.S. is a Christian fascist movement consisting of creationist loons who would murder their kids if a voice in their head told them to.

/facepalm

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Libertarianism as it is practiced in the U.S. is a Christian fascist movement consisting of creationist loons who would murder their kids if a voice in their head told them to.

/facepalm

I started to respond, but then asked myself the critical question: why?

 

[randalee]

I consider myself a 'Little L' Libertarian. There are also 'Big L' Libertarians. I have a few hangups -- I believe abortion is wrong, but a Big L would just stay out of it altogether -- none of his business.

ZAP (Zero Aggression Policy/Principle) - I agree with whole-heartedly. Let me be and let me live my life, I'll let you be and let you live your life. I'm one of the founding members of freesteader.com-- great forum for discussing this stuff. I don't affiliate with the Libertarian political party. I do vote. I believe in the principles of the Constitution.