How the hell could we nuke Japan?!

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Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,098
126


<<
and we had 1 more bomb, there were a total of 3 that were large enough for military use, plus the test bomb. by modern standards they were crude and far overbuilt. the US has improved on the yields on nukes so much that the estimate of 1/100 or 1/1000th of 1% is probably an accurate number. those 4 bombs used all the fissile uranium we'd come up with over the course of several years.
>>



Now this is interesting. I was under the impression that our "third" nuke for Tokyo was a bluff. Off hand I do remember that in the movie "Fat Man, Little Boy" (Could be the other way around) there were two. That's neat. I suppose there wouldn't have been a whole lot of Tokyo left to nuke though.

Now we have the hydrogen fusion bomb, so the destruction would be massive. During the testing, one scientist bet that the atmosphere would ignite, much to the displeasure of the officer in charge.




<<
the emporer had no political power. the japanese would have never surrendered had we just killed their living god-figure. it'd be far worse than any occupation ever. you think whats happening in israel is horrendous (as far as death toll and the number of suicide bombers)? there wouldn't have been any japanese left after the war if we'd have done that.
>>



Oh man, I can't even imagine...





<<
plus, tokyo pretty much didn't exist at the time the bombs were used. it had already been destroyed by fire bombs. which caused more damage than both the atomic bombs combined, yet for some reason all the revisionists forget about it and focus on the nukes.
>>



I'd imagine it's due to the apocolyptic nature of the nuclear bomb. As pure science, it's amazing. In reality, it's horrible. Much like a hurricane.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Personally I'd have preferred a nuke on the Emperor's palace rather than on a town full of innocents.

That would have been a very bad move. It was the Emperor that finally made the decision for peace. The military part of the ruling council even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki wanted to continue to fight. There was even an attempted take over after the Emperor had called for the surrender of Japan so that the military could continue to fight.

The bushido code was strong in the Japanese people at that time.
 

rc5

Platinum Member
Oct 13, 1999
2,464
1
0
From my source, the guy who dropped the atom bomb said something like"I did the right thing and would never regret for that".
 

rc5

Platinum Member
Oct 13, 1999
2,464
1
0
For some of you thick head, below is what he said:

Col Tibbets, captain of the Enola Gay, was not a bit
ambivalent. He told The Straits Times: 'I don't have any
regrets. Not a single one. In the same circumstances, I
would do the same thing again, without a moment's
hesitation.'
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
When I speak of the Japanese deserving what happened to them I speak of the Japanese who were our enemy, not the Japanese of today. I have no animosity towards the Japanese People what so ever.
 

Novgrod

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2001
1,142
0
0
If anybody cares, there's an excellent book--_War Without Mercy_, that explains nicely the ferocity of the war in the pacific.

Of note: "the western perception of the japanese as "little men" or "lesser men" meshed easily with images of the enemy as primitive . . . "

"the final year of agony [the last year of the war] dramatically revealed the altered nature of modern war. the traditional psychological factors which made ending wars difficult--pride on all sides, desperation, and mental paralysis on the part of the losers, the winners' drive for revenge and unequivoval victory--were now wedded to unprecedented forces of destruction. war hates were not new to the mid 20th century, nor were race hates or the killing of noncombatants. holy wars were surely not new. the techniques of mobilizing and sustaining such sentiments at fever pitch had, however, advanced by quantum leaps in the 20th c . . . (technological developments) . . . such developments went hand in hand with breathtaking advances in the technologies of destruction, especially in air power and firepower. simultaneously, there occurred and erosion of "old fashioned" constraints on the legit. targets of war. . . . the enemy became remote, monolithic, a different species, ultimately simply large numbers to tally up gleefully on one's growing list of estimated enemy dead.

total military deaths for japan: 1740955
civilians in bombing:

tokyo: 97031
Hiroshima: 140000
Nagasaki 70000
63 other bombed cities: 86336

It was in this frenzy of violence that the kamikaze were born in oct 44, . . . it was in this atmosphere that the precision bombing of japanese military targets was abandoned by the US and the "madmen" and "yellow vermin" of the homeland became primary targets. . . . On aug 10, the day after the nagasaki bomb and two days after the USSR declared war on Japan, the Japanese govt. made clear it intended to surrender, although the terms remained to be ironed out. Between then and the actual end of the war, two now-forgotten happenings took place that symbolize the war hates and race hates which had driven both sides so far, so disastrously. After the saturation bombing of jap. cities began in mar 45, the jap. military in the home islands commenced summarily executing the small number of US airmen who fell into their hands. On aug 12, eight were killed in Fukuoka; on aug 15, the formal cease fire a whisper away, eight more were killed by the military command in the same city--marking japan's last moment of the war with a final atrocity. while this was taking place, gen. henry h arnold, one of the major planners of the us bombing strategy, was desperately attempting to arrange "as big a finale as possible" to end the war. it was his dream to hit Tokyo with a final 1000 plane air rade, and on the night of aug 14, he succeeded in collecting such a force . . . President Truman announced Japan's unconditional surrender before all of them had returned to their bases. . . .

 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91


<< When I speak of the Japanese deserving what happened to them I speak of the Japanese who were our enemy, not the Japanese of today. I have no animosity towards the Japanese People what so ever. >>



But that is the problem with wars, those who deserve it often aren't hit anyway. The people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't the ones bombing Pearl Harbor, just like you people aren't the KKK members burning crosses (I hope).
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0


<< But that is the problem with wars, those who deserve it often aren't hit anyway. The people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't the ones bombing Pearl Harbor >>

They supported the war effort for 20+ years so they are as guilty as any soldier.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Who says civilians aren't acceptable targets? War is whatever works, whatever means necessary, I thought we'd established that?

Actually, an American general first established this doctrine, of Total War. General Sherman during the Civil War destroyed not only military, but also civilian targets. He did, unlike later Generals who followed the Total War Doctrine, try to avoid civilian casualties. He did this by sending messages to Atlanta, for example, telling them the city would be destroyed and they had to leave. Although this may be a horrible way to fight a war, it became the norm, with Europeans engaging in the same methods. Do you know why Total War was believed in? Because it worked. It demoralized the enemy so much that they wanted to surrender. It was highly effective, and by World War II, Hitler set the stage for Total War with his bombings of civilians targets. The US became involved in a war that was being fought not only against armies, but against the civilian populations that supported these armies. Sadly, this became a driving force behind the bombings in Japan.

You also must realize that the allied invasion, titled Operation Olympic, was allowing leeway for at least 1 million American casualties and at least that number of Japanese. Military Brass did not, for obvious reasons, feel this was acceptable when the nuke, which potentially could end the war, would do it with far less casualties.

Also, in hindsight you must remember: Oppenheimer and others HAD NO IDEA THE BOMB WAS RADIOACTIVE. They thought it was just an extremely powerful weapon, they had no idea that radiation would cause thousands of death and deformaties in the most horrible ways. Perhaps if this knowledge had been present they may have reconsidered the use of the bombs. BUT IT WASN'T.

when US dropped the bombs on Japan, they already knew the war was over and they had won. the bombs were just a "screw you" for the surprise attack on Perl Harbor and the kamikazi bombs.

America knew it had won, yes. But the Japanese did not. They were willing to fight it out to the last man. The "screw you" for Pearl Harbor came when Allied forces attacked the largest shipyard in Japan. They attacked in the same method as the Japanese had except iwth over 1000 aircraft. There were other incidents in which America attempted to destroy Japanese fleets in the same way the Pacific Fleet had been crushed years early, but that is the best example.

The 'sneak attack' on Pearl Harbor was not intended to be such. The Japanese had sent a declaration of war to their ambassador in Washington to be delivered right before the attack. It was marked so top secret that only the ambassador and one of his staff could work on the decoding. The ambassador was such a poor typist that it ended up being delivered after the attack.

Where did you read this? When the bombings happened the Japanese Ambassador was talking with Roosevelt, ABOUT HOW TO EASE SANCTIONS AND MEND RELATIONS WITH THE US. I'm sorry, but I would love to see where you read this.


The Bombing of Dresden, btw, in my opinion was not justified at all. Dresden was full of civilians fleeing from the Red Army advance. Theere were no factories in the area that was bombed. The only worthwhile target was the railroad yard, but I don't beleive a firestorm was needed to destroy it. THe only reason I have ever been able to see behind the bombing was simply that the Allies were out of targets. Almost every target of significance had already been bombed that was in range of the bombers, Dresden was the only exception.


-The number of casualties, I thought, were more around 55 million killed, both civilians and military. I know Russia had about ~25 million killed, Germany lost at least 3/4 of it's 10 million man army + civilians, Japan lost at least 2 - 3 million men. Those are just the quick ones I can think of.

-One last thing, the quote "the object of war is not die for your country but make the other poor dumb bastard die for his" is from George S. Patton.


Sorry for such a long post, but I spend lots of time reading about world war II. I totally believe the dropping of the bombs was justified.
 

oLLie

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2001
5,203
1
0


<< For some of you thick head, below is what he said:

Col Tibbets, captain of the Enola Gay, was not a bit
ambivalent. He told The Straits Times: 'I don't have any
regrets. Not a single one. In the same circumstances, I
would do the same thing again, without a moment's
hesitation.'
>>


Is that why he committed suicide?


(I'm pretty sure he did)

*These estimates for death tolls are BS (Millions? Doubt it). How can they estimate how long it would take before one side surrendered? Bull, they can't.*
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
"the save lives" excuse, is a poor deplorable one to excuse the fact that we commited the ultimate act of horror in the world

OH really??? :| My dad was a Navy Sea-Bee during WWII. before the first bomb was dropped the military was grabbing EVERYBODY and putting them through amphibious landing drills for the invasion of Japan. Infact my dads training was off the coast of Maryland.

I thank Truman for his hard decision, he did it to save AMERICAN lives and more than likely my dad was one of those lives he saved.

We gave the Japanese government plenty of warning to stop the war and surrender they did not. Truman did what was necessary and IS NOT the the ultimate act of horror in the world. I would say that the way the Japanese murdered the Chinese and other civilians or the Germans murdering 6 Million people is at the top of war horror.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
BlinderBomber
The 'sneak attack' on Pearl Harbor was not intended to be such. The Japanese had sent a declaration of war to their ambassador in Washington to be delivered right before the attack. It was marked so top secret that only the ambassador and one of his staff could work on the decoding. The ambassador was such a poor typist that it ended up being delivered after the attack.

Flame & Blame at Pearl Harbor The Responsibility Question
"Page 14 was radioed to the Japanese Embassy very early in the morning of 7 December. Being a weekend, few personnel were available. A clerk unfamiliar with typewriters was ordered in to transcribe it. It was a very slow one- and two-finger typing process, but it had to be done as rapidly as possible; the Ambassador was under absolute orders to be certain that it and the prior pages were put together and delivered to Secretary of State Cordell Hull a half-hour before 1 p.m. -- 8 a.m. in Hawaii. In this fashion, there would be fair warning. The idea of a complete surprise attack had been raised during planning, but was out of the question. Both the architects of Japanese militarism and their foreign representatives were Samurai, and according to their ancient Bushido Code, even a Samurai assassin bent upon killing a victim in bed at home at night, however briefly must first wake him and throw him a sword. Additionally, they well knew the horrid psychological risk of a total surprise attack upon America"

I was close, it was a clerk doing the typing, but slowly. In any event, the message was not delivered until after the attack had begun.

7 December 1941

"An hour after the first bombs had fallen on Pearl Harbor, Ambassador Nomura (Nomura, Kichisaburo) and Special Envoy Kurusu turned up at the State Department. They had been told to deliver the dispatch from Tokyo at 1300hrs, Washington time, but postponed the meeting with Secretary Hull (Hull, Cordell) for one hour because of the difficulty of translating the final, fourteenth part. It accused the US of conspiring with Britain to prevent Japan creating a New Order in the Far East. It regretted that 'the peace of the Pacific through cooperation has finally been lost' and ended by saying that it was now 'impossible to reach an agreement through further negotiations.' Even this was not a declaration of war.

With reports of the carnage in Pearl Harbor already coming in, Secretary of State Cordell Hull had no reason to mince words. 'In all my fifty years of public service I have never seen a document that was more crowded with infamous falsehoods and distortions,' he said, 'infamous falsehoods and distortions on a scale so huge that I never imagined until today that any government on this planet was capable of uttering them.' As he spoke, the Second Attack Wave of Japanese aircraft swooped in on Pearl Harbor, pummeling the already crippled fleet. By 1000hrs, it was all over.The Pacific was now at war.
"
 

Novgrod

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2001
1,142
0
0
We gave the Japanese government plenty of warning to stop the war and surrender they did not.

Truman famously told the japanese that they ought to surrender or face imminent distruction, or however he phrased it.

The japanese ministry "killed it with silence," i.e. didn't respond, didn't talk about it.

However, Truman did not give thought to the japanese response; the bomb was going to be dropped regardless of their answer.

Also of note: the Germans weren't as close to completing a nuke as everybody once thought; it would have been some time (though how long is anyone's guess). Japan never had anything resembling the ability to make a nuke, even if German scientists dropped by with fissable material.

 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
However, Truman did not give thought to the japanese response; the bomb was going to be dropped regardless of their answer.

Exactly what do you base that on?


Personally I think it is complete BS you pulled out of the nether regions of your arse, but to be fair I'm willing to listen to you try and explain how the U.S. would have dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan after they had surrendered.
 

IJump

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2001
4,640
11
76


<< he did it to save AMERICAN lives >>




It actually saved Japanese lives too.

I haven't read the entire thread, and I am sure this has been mentioned, but the Japanese would have fought to the last person and many more would have been killed, both military and civilian........

Look at some of the other islands... Civilians were throwing themselves off of cliffs to escape what they were told would be done to them by the Americans by the Japanese military....
 

Novgrod

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2001
1,142
0
0
Personally I think it is complete BS you pulled out of the nether regions of your arse, but to be fair I'm willing to listen to you try and explain how the U.S. would have dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan after they had surrendered.

Relax, would you? Why would I make this up?

Truman, like everyone else in America, knew that Japan wouldn't surrender upon the threat of destruction from their enemy.

Therefore, he issued the threat, and without waiting for a response, he ordered the bomb dropped. Obviously, this doesn't apply to the second bomb. I'm not intending to pass judgement on Truman, and I don't think it was an unreasonable thing to do, since he knew the answer to the request for a surrender before he asked. I'm simply refuting the idea that Truman gave the Japanese ample opportunity to surrender and an adequate knowledge of what they were facing, as was voiced here: We gave the Japanese government plenty of warning to stop the war and surrender they did not.

This can be found in _War Without Mercy_, by John Dower, among a number of other places.



As for the thought that the Japanese would have fought to the last man, well, while the fighting undoubtedly would have been fierce upon an invasion, you can't account for the peaceful occupation after the war if the Japanese were so overwhelmingly warlike.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Potsdam July 26, 1945

(13) We call upon the Government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all the Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.


Notice the date.

Read more than one book on the subject.
 

Novgrod

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2001
1,142
0
0
We call upon the Government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all the Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.

Unless i'm off my gourd, which isn't at all impossible, Truman made another threat to Japan, more explicitly, closer to the date upon which the bomb was dropped.

 

IJump

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2001
4,640
11
76
As for the thought that the Japanese would have fought to the last man, well, while the fighting undoubtedly would have been fierce upon an invasion, you can't account for the peaceful occupation after the war if the Japanese were so overwhelmingly warlike.


The japanese military was very determined in every defense of every island. It would have many times that on their home island. The people were not overwhelmingly warlike, but the defense was incredible and their civilian population was misinformed.
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81


<< and we had 1 more bomb. >>



No we didn't.



<< Now this is interesting. I was under the impression that our "third" nuke for Tokyo was a bluff. Off hand I do remember that in the movie "Fat Man, Little Boy" (Could be the other way around) there were two. >>



You're correct. I visited where the bombs were built (Tennessee) and went to the museum that detailed all about the bombs. After the 2nd one was dropped, there were no more.
 

CurtOien

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,948
0
0


<< The Soviet Union and its rapid advances through Manchuria was one compeling reason the bomb was used, the US didn't want Stalin in part of Japan's post war. Otherwise, it could have been another East and West Germany situation. >>

Yes, something like that is what I believe. The US wanted Japan to surrender to the US unconditionally and not to the Soviets at all.
 

pac1085

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2000
3,456
0
76
If I were alive during the 40's, I would have fully supported our government(usa). We're a civilized country, we dont use nukes just because we have them, if there was a method that would not have killed as many people(both japanese and americans) that would have ended the war I'm sure we would have used it. But there wasnt. If we hadnt used the nukes for all we know millions could have died and the world changed forever.
 

Mandrill

Golden Member
Feb 7, 2000
1,009
0
0
For all of those who wonder "How could we?", do me a favor. Open up a new window, type in www.google.com and then do a search on "Unit 731" and read. If you have any more questions, please come back and ask.

Thank You.
 
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