how to approach payment discussion with friends when starting out?

[Aharami]

I have always been a hobbyist photographer and have done a couple paid shoots, but lately more and more friends are asking me to take their family photos based on the work I have posted on facebook or G+. Since I am not a pro photog (and they know that), I am not sure if they are expecting me to do it for free. I would like to start breaking out as a pro and getting more clients, but I feel like my time and skill should be compensated for. Yet I dont want to overcharge and drive those potential first clients away.

For those pro photogs here, how did you approach the payment discussion with friends and family when first starting out? Or should I be doing this pro bono at this stage to get more exposure and build up a bigger portfolio?

And just as an example of some of the pictures I have taken, so you can decide whether I should be charging for my work or not...

Any comments welcome. Thanks!

 

[CuriousMike]

Nice photos.

I'll be curious to the responses; my gut feeling says "don't charge family (but don't turn down free food" and concentrate on charging your friends-friends.

 

[Aharami]

Oh I won't charge family. But the inquiries have come in from old friends who are just acquaintances now. And thanks!

 

[Soundmanred]

Set up a pay scale and stick with it. You have to value yourself or nobody will. It's the same with computer work.
If anything, call other photographers as a potential client and ask what they would charge to do a few different things and go from there.

 

[Throckmorton]

Give them a "friends and family rate"

 

[AViking]

If you're getting paid you're a pro. You don't have to be working for Nat Geo to be pro.

Not sure I'd charge family but friends pay. The exceptions have been things like giving them wedding photos as a wedding gift but even then they should have another photographer there too so you can enjoy yourself.

 

[NAC]

Wonderful shots!

I have no experience in this, but an idea is - if a lot of people learn about you through Facebook / G+, then you could "announce" your initiative to start charging for photos. If anyone makes a request, you can respond in a way assuming they saw your announcements, and already know you are starting a business.

Based on where you live, you'll need to determine a schedule of how much to charge, and stick to it. From what I've read about photography, there is a lot of competition and therefore prices/wages are often quite low for the time put in. If you start out with low prices, people might get upset if you get too much work and have to raise them. If you start out too high, people might be a bit offended. I'm not sure what to recommend other than - try to charge about what you think is fair for your market. If you charge the same as other photographers, it is hard to blame you. And you could have official rates, and offer friends and family a 20% discount or something.

I'd think it would be easiest to post the rates in Facebook / G+, that way any viewers would immediately know what to expect, and not be surprised or offended. But you can surprise them with the 20% discount offer.

 

[Paladin3]

Photography is like any other creative service job and blindly quoting rates up front is a road to disaster. The last thing you want are clients who are bargain hunting for the cheapest photographer they can find.

You can discuss the clients general budget, but the first step is to meet with them and show them your work. Explain your style of shooting, what you can do and discuss what their needs are. Make sure realistic expectations are set.

Only if the clients fall in love with my portfolio do I move on to discuss actual costs and give them a quote. I don't want to ever quote a low rate just to win a job. If a client isn't comfortable with me and my fees, or doesn't like my style of shooting then I'm setting both of us up for disaster.

When you work with family or friends, do everything the same and offer a discount depending on the relationship. Never work for free or if you don't feel good about the job. I have shot weddings for close friends and family as a gift, but you'll know when someone is that close to you. A friend who asks but balks at paying doesn't respect your work. I'd politely suggest another photographer may be a better choice.

The images you posted are better than what a lot of other photographers looking for work are showing. Put a good book together and charge accordingly. The myth that photographers need to wok for peanuts to make a name for themselves is garbage.

Consider all of your time and costs and only take a job if you will turn a profit. Stop feeling bad about charging for your time and skill. There is no way you will produce good images if you feel you are working for less than you are worth.

 

[mediademon]

As a photographer I recommend that you use the experience to better yourself as a photographer. The more experience you have the better you become. It may take a while of doing free shoots but eventually you will get to the point where some money can be made. For example, you photograph an event or what have you for a friend. You charge them nothing but in return they must share the results with people and when asked how much they can hand out a business card or give out a number for them to contact you. The best advertisement is word of mouth.

Just because you make some money does not make one a pro. A professional photographer is someone who makes over 50% of their income through photography. This does not speak to their skill only how much of their income is derived through photography. I am not going to judge your work, it is not my place to. If there is a specific segment in your area you wish to corner or stand out in, then look at the current photographers in your area offering it. Look at their style and what they offer. Do not even worry about pricing. Now think of what you have to offer through your work that sets you a part and would be a reason why people would choose you over them. Everyone these days thinks they are a photographer simply because they have a camera phone or some software that allows them to add effects. You need to stand out and be different. If people want boring then let them go to a studio or some other cookie cutter business. Be unique and relentless in your pursuit of perfection. Also develop a style, so that when someone sees one of your images, regardless of subject they know it is yours.

 

[Aharami]

Thanks for all the insights and advice. I checked and the going rate for family shoot in my area is anywhere from $200 to $400. I asked my friend for $125 which is a very paltry sum for the 4-5 hrs that will be required for this job. If she doesn't get back to me that'll just tell me that she's looking for someone to do this for free. I'm sure she'll be able to find another friend with a dslr that'll be willing to do this for free but most likely they won't come with lighting equipment and props that I have. I want to make a name for myself, but decided that I won't do this for free (other than close family)

 

[slashbinslashbash]

Kinda relevant...

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/bos/4238275259.html

 

[Paladin3]

Never, never, never work for free. Regardless of your skill level, just don't do it. It doesn't lead to paying work, nor does it help you make a name for yourself in the industry.

All working for free does is devalue the entire industry and keep fees low for folks trying to earn a living. The more free photography available the more people will expect it and the more unwilling they will be to pay decent rates.

I made my living and fed my family exclusively from newspaper photography in the Los Angeles area for ~14 years. During that time I saw many bright-eyed young photographers fall victim to the myth that they needed to work for free to get a foot in the door. It's a lie.

Unscrupulous editors dangle the promise of future paid jobs or the thrill of your name in print to get free images from suckers. And after you get tired of working for free they move on to the next sucker. Just don't do it.

Ask the client or editor who expects you to work for free if they do too. If they say yes they are lying. And think how you would feel if the industry you relied on to put food on the table was flooded by people who would work for free.

 

[Aharami]

update: she said she'd ask her husband and get back to me. Havent heard from her in 2 days now. Yea she can find someone else to do it for free. I almost posted that craigslist link to my fb wall. It's ridiculous that people expect photography to be done for free!

 

[Aharami]

Kinda relevant...

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/bos/4238275259.html

:biggrin::thumbsup:

 

[crashtestdummy]

update: she said she'd ask her husband and get back to me. Havent heard from her in 2 days now. Yea she can find someone else to do it for free. I almost posted that craigslist link to my fb wall. It's ridiculous that people expect photography to be done for free!

I think part of it is that with the quality and availability of consumer-level photography equipment, most people have friends willing to stop by with a DSLR and take photos for free. That doesn't mean that the skills of a pro photographer aren't still valuable, but it does raise the threshold for when people feel they should have to pay for one. I have lots of friends who had no interest in paying for a photographer at their weddings because they knew that there would be lots of people with cameras who would take "good enough" photos for their purposes.

 

[Syborg1211]

I think part of it is that with the quality and availability of consumer-level photography equipment, most people have friends willing to stop by with a DSLR and take photos for free. That doesn't mean that the skills of a pro photographer aren't still valuable, but it does raise the threshold for when people feel they should have to pay for one. I have lots of friends who had no interest in paying for a photographer at their weddings because they knew that there would be lots of people with cameras who would take "good enough" photos for their purposes.

Yea, the problem with trying to make a living being a photographer is that there are bunch of people out there who do photography as a hobby. Hobbyists don't really need the money. Also, people looking to become professional photogs DO need to do some free work in the beginning to build their portfolio. Maybe it's been a long time for those pro photogs that complain about this, but getting paid work without a strong portfolio is not easy. Did they get paid work without proving their skills up front?

I grow tired of pro photogs complaining about people working for free. Don't choose your career as something people do for a hobby if you expect everyone to charge.

 

[corkyg]

Yea, the problem with trying to make a living being a photographer is that there are bunch of people out there who do photography as a hobby. Hobbyists don't really need the money.

This a definite consideration, and it is getting worse as just about everyone is snapping pics with phones, tablets, etc.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Yea, the problem with trying to make a living being a photographer is that there are bunch of people out there who do photography as a hobby. Hobbyists don't really need the money. Also, people looking to become professional photogs DO need to do some free work in the beginning to build their portfolio. Maybe it's been a long time for those pro photogs that complain about this, but getting paid work without a strong portfolio is not easy. Did they get paid work without proving their skills up front?

I grow tired of pro photogs complaining about people working for free. Don't choose your career as something people do for a hobby if you expect everyone to charge.

I have a lot of sympathy for professional photographers. It used to be that if you wanted a decent quality record of an event, you really needed not only a professional with high-end photo-taking equipment, but photographic efficiency was actually important because of the cost of film. Furthermore, in order to have a picture that rose to the level of art, you really needed a dark room and quite a bit of skill.

Nowadays, a $1k camera kit and a few hours of playing around will get you those "for the record" quality photos quite easily. Now, the primary reason to hire a photographer is if you want your photos to be considered artwork, and many don't see that as sufficiently important for life-cycle events. That makes "making a living" as a photographer much tougher than before.

 

[Paladin3]

Yea, the problem with trying to make a living being a photographer is that there are bunch of people out there who do photography as a hobby. Hobbyists don't really need the money. Also, people looking to become professional photogs DO need to do some free work in the beginning to build their portfolio. Maybe it's been a long time for those pro photogs that complain about this, but getting paid work without a strong portfolio is not easy. Did they get paid work without proving their skills up front?

I grow tired of pro photogs complaining about people working for free. Don't choose your career as something people do for a hobby if you expect everyone to charge.

I never expected anyone to pay me to develop my portfolio. I went to college to learn my craft and shot a lot of assignments for a student newspaper to hone my skill. My first real newspaper job was as a lab technician, partly because that was all I was qualified for, but also so I could continue to learn from the photogs on staff. Years later, I ran college internship programs at both papers where I was a staffer to pay it back and help those entering the profession.

It really comes down to who is asking you to work for free. If you need to develop your portfolio then find a charity or someone truly in need to do the photography for. Do senior photography for poor high school kids who can afford nothing else. What you don't want to do is work for editors or people who could pay, but are simply too cheap. Don't believe the promises that working for free will lead to a future job. If someone wants your images badly enough they should be willing to pay.

So please forgive us tiring pros who are looking out for our chosen (former, in my case) profession and those entering it. I've watched too many young photographers fail because they didn't understand the basics of business and were taken advantage of. Getting paid is about as basics as it gets, unless you just want to be a hobbyist forever, which is fine.