How to control the people : Keep them stupid and uninformed

[Retro Rob]

Only within the christian creationist mindset. Evolution obviously exists for us to be able to exploit it.

I am not sure how only in the "christian creationist mindset" God and evolution are mutually exclusive, unless you believe in some form of "theistic evolution" which is a compromising yet untenable position.




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[vi edit]

Science by its most loose definition means "knowledge". Every intelligent being (supernatural or not) possess knowledge and can acquire knowledge through various means.

That's like saying the definition of a stone is "Something hard".

In the concept of this thread the more intended definition is more like the following: "Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence."

 

[Retro Rob]

That's like saying the definition of a stone is "Something hard".

In the concept of this thread the more intended definition is more like the following: "Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence."

Cool. We can make up or own definition of words then, which we do and have. That's fine with me!

 

[xthetenth]

That's not what I said, nor implied. What I was saying is you can't throw all religions under the same umbrella like they're all the same, just like you can throw all sciences under the same umbrella like its all the same.

All sciences are the same methodology applied to different fields. It's all trying to gather more facts and refine theories to better understand the world. If you dispute the findings of a given field you are either saying that the facts present at the time give a misleading idea of reality, disputing the methodology of the studies the consensus is based on or are disputing the philosophical underpinnings of science.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I am not sure how only in the "christian creationist mindset" God and evolution are mutually exclusive, unless you believe in some form of "theistic evolution" which is a compromising yet untenable position.

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Someone forgot to tell the pope that.

 

[Jhhnn]

I am not sure how only in the "christian creationist mindset" God and evolution are mutually exclusive, unless you believe in some form of "theistic evolution" which is a compromising yet untenable position.




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Your Abrahamic concept of God & evolution are incompatible.

Evolution exists. It existed long, long, long before humans existed or exploited it as with domestic plants & animals. It's as much a force of nature as electromagnetic radiation or gravity.

If your personal concept of God can't encompass readily observable reality then you might want to change it.

 

[Retro Rob]

Your Abrahamic concept of God & evolution are incompatible.

Evolution exists. It existed long, long, long before humans existed or exploited it as with domestic plants & animals. It's as much a force of nature as electromagnetic radiation or gravity.

If your personal concept of God can't encompass readily observable reality then you might want to change it.

Why not just please answer my question. Do you believe in theistic evolution in some form or fashion?

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Oh, your "presuppositions?" I have to ask, are you Calvinist or otherwise Reformed?

 

[Retro Rob]

Someone forgot to tell the pope that.

The pope understands what he's doing. Its more important to be spared of ridicule by the scientific community than to stick to the RCC's beliefs.

Every Christian should know the implications of "theistic evolution" -- namely that if God used evolution, there was no Adam and Eve. If there was no Adam and Eve, then "sin" simply never existed. If sin never existed, then Jesus either (1) never existed as a human anyway, or (2) he died for sin that never existed because Adam and Eve never existed, so his death means nothing.

No amount of mental gymnastics can over come the FACT that evolution completely contradicts the purpose and point on the Ransom, the central tenet of Christian beliefs. Therefore, the Ransom accomplishes nothing.

 

[zinfamous]

Why not just please answer my question. Do you believe in theistic evolution in some form or fashion?

What does that mean? That Odin/Woden evolved into Yaweh, who evolved into Jesus, who evolved into Mohammet, who evolved into Buddha, who evolved into Robert Tilton?

 

[Retro Rob]

What does that mean? That Odin/Woden evolved into Yaweh, who evolved into Jesus, who evolved into Mohammet, who evolved into Buddha, who evolved into Robert Tilton?

Hahahaha....

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

The pope understands what he's doing. Its more important to be spared of ridicule by the scientific community than to stick to the RCC's beliefs.

Every Christian should know the implications of "theistic evolution" -- namely that if God used evolution, there was no Adam and Eve. If there was no Adam and Eve, then "sin" simply never existed. If sin never existed, then Jesus either (1) never existed as a human anyway, or (2) he died for sin that never existed because Adam and Eve never existed, so his death means nothing.

No amount of mental gymnastics can over come the FACT that evolution completely contradicts the purpose and point on the Ransom, the central tenet of Christian beliefs. Therefore, the Ransom accomplishes nothing.

Then maybe the Ransom was always a lie. Maybe God doesn't work like that.

Maybe God isn't some kind of psychopath who sacrifices his own son, who is also himself, to himself, to stop himself from throwing his own creations into the Hell he never once mentioned to them during Old Testament times (no, he let the pagan Persians and Greeks do that...).

You know the saying "Let God be true and every man a liar?" You're not arguing for God; you're arguing for a religion, and a demented one made up of cannibal blood sacrifice on top of that.

 

[Jhhnn]

Why not just please answer my question. Do you believe in theistic evolution in some form or fashion?

You didn't ask me that question until now.

The answer is no.

 

[Retro Rob]

Then maybe the Ransom was always a lie. Maybe God doesn't work like that.

Maybe God isn't some kind of psychopath who sacrifices his own son, who is also himself, to himself, to stop himself from throwing his own creations into the Hell he never once mentioned to them during Old Testament times (no, he let the pagan Persians and Greeks do that...).

You know the saying "Let God be true and every man a liar?" You're not arguing for God; you're arguing for a religion, and a demented one made up of cannibal blood sacrifice on top of that.

I'm not arguing for anything. Just making a point...that's all.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

You are very much arguing for the following: "I am a committed Christian, and intelligent enough to know that evolution yanks the rug out from under the beliefs I have committed to. So to Hell with evolution."

Do you think we're stupid?

 

[shortylickens]

Ignorance is just not knowing about something. Not accepting evolution as a reasonable explanation to the biodiversity we find on earth isn't being ignorant.

I have never met anyone who actually understands evolution AND doesn't believe it.

FYI: Understanding it takes quite a bit more effort than two minutes of reading on Wikipedia. I needed a whole semester of biology to really get a firm grasp. On a related note: it seems painfully obvious the vast majority of Americans only know about evolution from two minutes of reading Wikipedia or from constantly listening to political pundits who know very little about anything.

 

[Retro Rob]

You are very much arguing for the following: "I am a committed Christian, and intelligent enough to know that evolution yanks the rug out from under the beliefs I have committed to. So to Hell with evolution."

Do you think we're stupid?

No, I don't think [they're] stupid...just you.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

I figured you would. Jesus, how predictable.

Retro, I've spent over 11 years studying the Abrahamic religions and the surrounding ones, some of it in the original Koine or Greek, plus apologetics and counter-apologetics. 11 years. In my spare time, as this is on top of a geology degree.

And I'm not an atheist. Evolution does not disprove God; it merely disproves certain Bronze-age holdovers people ascribe to God. You are committing a form of idolatry, in that you are placing religious dogma above reality and therefore above God.

 

[agent00f]

The pope understands what he's doing. Its more important to be spared of ridicule by the scientific community than to stick to the RCC's beliefs.

Every Christian should know the implications of "theistic evolution" -- namely that if God used evolution, there was no Adam and Eve. If there was no Adam and Eve, then "sin" simply never existed. If sin never existed, then Jesus either (1) never existed as a human anyway, or (2) he died for sin that never existed because Adam and Eve never existed, so his death means nothing.

No amount of mental gymnastics can over come the FACT that evolution completely contradicts the purpose and point on the Ransom, the central tenet of Christian beliefs. Therefore, the Ransom accomplishes nothing.

If the religious were big on logic they wouldn't be.

 

[fskimospy]

I have never met anyone who actually understands evolution AND doesn't believe it.

FYI: Understanding it takes quite a bit more effort than two minutes of reading on Wikipedia. I needed a whole semester of biology to really get a firm grasp. On a related note: it seems painfully obvious the vast majority of Americans only know about evolution from two minutes of reading Wikipedia or from constantly listening to political pundits who know very little about anything.

I don't like the term 'believe' used with evolution. Just like with climate change it's not a 'belief', it's the acceptance of overwhelming scientific evidence.

 

[Retro Rob]

I have never met anyone who actually understands evolution AND doesn't believe it.

FYI: Understanding it takes quite a bit more effort than two minutes of reading on Wikipedia. I needed a whole semester of biology to really get a firm grasp. On a related note: it seems painfully obvious the vast majority of Americans only know about evolution from two minutes of reading Wikipedia or from constantly listening to political pundits who know very little about anything.

Of course, YOU never meeting them doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[agent00f]

Of course, YOU never meeting them doesn't mean they don't exist.

He's making an empirical observation, which is rather more scientific than your largely rhetorical arguments.

 

[xthetenth]

Of course, YOU never meeting them doesn't mean they don't exist.

If you understood it, you'd know that there's many subtle ways in which biological knowledge and evolution match up, even when they're dreadfully inconvenient for the sort of shortcuts that most people's understanding is based on (such as species existing as nice neat discrete chunks of animals rather than being awkward categorizations imposed on a huge lineage of animals that can and do sometimes interbreed in interesting ways, where for example it's possible for some species to interbreed with other species, but two species that can interbreed with a common species can't interbreed with each other). People who understand evolution are much better able to point out how it fits the data in ways that other models such as creationism don't.


Seriously, if you want a good look at the case for evolution, just pick up Dawkins' The Greatest Show on Earth. He's actually talking about his specialty rather than giving himself a cranial colonoscopy, and it's simultaneously thorough and approachable.

 

[Retro Rob]

I figured you would. Jesus, how predictable.

Well stop saying the standard stupid things and you'll stop getting the standard answer.

Retro, I've spent over 11 years studying the Abrahamic religions and the surrounding ones, some of it in the original Koine or Greek, plus apologetics and counter-apologetics. 11 years. In my spare time, as this is on top of a geology degree.

Who gives a rats ass what you've allegedly done on your "spare time"? Funny thing, the most educated people are the ones that's been screwing our planet up and causing climate change. Idiots like me don't get the chance to make planet-altering decisions...just "educated" clowns like you.

 

[zinfamous]

Well stop saying the standard stupid things and you'll stop getting the standard answer.



Who gives a rats ass what you've allegedly done on your "spare time"? Funny thing, the most educated people are the ones that's been screwing our planet up and causing climate change. Idiots like me don't get the chance to make planet-altering decisions...just "educated" clowns like you.

Actually, no. most of those industrialist types are probably college dropouts and, maybe, MBAs at the most. hardly the brightest of people. Just really good at dicking people over and profiting from it.