How to promote a secular West.

[Moonbeam]

Nothing on the list in the OP requires Faith.

The things on the list were discovered by artificial intelligence examining the factors that promote secularism in society. I have faith they are accurate. I have faith that mass and energy are the same thing but I can't do the math.

You do not understand Secularism. You are also wrong. The less "Spirituality"(whatever that means)in Governance, the better a Society is in all aspects.

Rubbish. What do you think lies at the heart of America's founding if not faith in the existence of rights that are inherent to men. The self evidence of truths is a statement of faith because there is no proof of their existence other than self evidence, a faith they are shared by all and are instinctual. As with the existence of God, no proof is required for belief. It takes no faith to believe in the four items but it takes faith to believe they are fundamental to preserving a secular society and that it is vital we promote and protect them.

 

[sandorski]

The things on the list were discovered by artificial intelligence examining the factors that promote secularism in society. I have faith they are accurate. I have faith that mass and energy are the same thing but I can't do the math.



Rubbish. What do you think lies at the heart of America's founding if not faith in the existence of rights that are inherent to men. The self evidence of truths is a statement of faith because there is no proof of their existence other than self evidence, a faith they are shared by all and are instinctual. As with the existence of God, no proof is required for belief. It takes no faith to believe in the four items but it takes faith to believe they are fundamental to preserving a secular society and that it is vital we promote and protect them.

The Proof is in the pudding. We can see the fruits of Rights and Principles used in forming a Society. The same is untrue for any god ever believed.

 

[1prophet]

As long as you are looking for some system or religion to overcome the greed and corruptness that are part of human nature you will always fail,

because everyone's religion or secular system is best as long as their sacred cows are protected while someone else's need to be sacrificed for the greater good.

 

[cytg111]

As long as you are looking for some system or religion to overcome the greed and corruptness that are part of human nature you will always fail,

because everyone's religion or secular system is best as long as their sacred cows are protected while someone else's need to be sacrificed for the greater good.

Like this guy promotes? .
https://www.yahoo.com/news/unfilter...ng-rich-people-say-poor-people-184825813.html

 

[Noah Abrams]

Secular does not mean non believing. It is a system of government that protects both the religious and those without belief and equally.

I think this is where America does pretty well. I know there is a section of population that feels their religious beliefs are under assault by the left, but I think that is mainly a mindset.

 

[Noah Abrams]

While we are at it, another core component in the syllabus should be psych 101, some basic tools to undertand our own minds as well as others. Far from everyone have parents that are up to this task.

I agree. Psychology should be required in high schools. Our current education system is geared towards creating money making machines. So those who navigate it successfully become money making machines

 

[interchange]

Your post quickly exposed what I see as the barrier to a secular society. Attempts to promote secularism are seen as threats to religion and spirituality in society when in fact the aim is to protect them. As we march closer and closer to authoritarianism in reaction to our feelings of oppression we forget that America was founded upon such principles as secularism as a means to deliver us from actual authoritarian oppression.

 

[Greenman]

Atheism is not faith -- it focuses on the scientific method, not a pre-determined belief. There's no blind trust, only observable facts and testable theories. If you don't know something, you admit you don't know it. Science is allowed to change its position if there's credible evidence that contradicts established views; religion treats anything that contradicts the original view as heresy. If there were someday evidence of gods and the spiritual, science would accept it.

Think about it for a moment: do you want governments and societies that conduct policy based on evidence, and adapt to changing knowledge and situations? If so, you must support secular society.

I like the concept, and agree with you're description of how it should work, but that hasn't been my experience with atheists. Atheism as I've experienced it is nothing more than a rejection of western religion, often accompanied by contempt for religious people, and mocking the concept of a god.

 

[Moonbeam]

Your post quickly exposed what I see as the barrier to a secular society. Attempts to promote secularism are seen as threats to religion and spirituality in society when in fact the aim is to protect them. As we march closer and closer to authoritarianism in reaction to our feelings of oppression we forget that America was founded upon such principles as secularism as a means to deliver us from actual authoritarian oppression.

I fully agree with this, but I also think my OP also exposed the other side of the coin to secularism, freedom to believe in religion and spiritualism. We have folk whose belief that non belief is so superior to belief they feel equally entitled to become authoritarian in opposing it. To believe or not to believe is something that every authoritarian believer or non believer feels entitled to make for everyone else.

 

[sandorski]

I fully agree with this, but I also think my OP also exposed the other side of the coin to secularism, freedom to believe in religion and spiritualism. We have folk whose belief that non belief is so superior to belief they feel equally entitled to become authoritarian in opposing it. To believe or not to believe is something that every authoritarian believer or non believer feels entitled to make for everyone else.

In what way?

 

[Moonbeam]

In what way?

In the way that green an just mentioned in post 33. Fear of the other due to ego attachment to belief, in this case the transference from the fact that religious faith can be corrupted into fanaticism to all religious faith is fanaticism. Belief that you know what pudding is or wine tastes like without having the experience of tasting, the certainty that what are really only opinions are actual truth.

 

[kage69]

In my opinion, the sickness of the west partly if not mainly lies in its complete secular nature. It needs spirituality

Well your opinion is uninformed then, at the least.

Secular societies fare better across the board compared to religious societies. People have long tried to connect the ills of society to a lack of religion and too much secularism, but actually the reverse is true. This is the case with American states as well as foreign countries. Sorry.

 

[Commodus]

I like the concept, and agree with you're description of how it should work, but that hasn't been my experience with atheists. Atheism as I've experienced it is nothing more than a rejection of western religion, often accompanied by contempt for religious people, and mocking the concept of a god.

I don't think you've experienced the full spread of atheism, then.

Yeah, there are snobbish atheists who outright attack religion instead of quietly explaining why it's untenable. But we shouldn't resist secularization simply because there are some jerks who aren't good sports about it. They're not the ones in power, culturally or politically; they aren't going to ban religion. We can push for the scientific method and reason without having to celebrate the Richard Dawkinses of the world.

 

[sandorski]

I don't think you've experienced the full spread of atheism, then.

Yeah, there are snobbish atheists who outright attack religion instead of quietly explaining why it's untenable. But we shouldn't resist secularization simply because there are some jerks who aren't good sports about it. They're not the ones in power, culturally or politically; they aren't going to ban religion. We can push for the scientific method and reason without having to celebrate the Richard Dawkinses of the world.

I'll just add that Atheism and Secularism are not the same thing.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Atheism is not a belief system or religion , it is simply a lack of belief in any gods. Secularism is simply the idea that government should not promote one religion over another or require a citizen to believe or follow a religion.

Is there any evidence in our entire history that our government is capable of acting this way? Half the people in these forums are ready to ban religion not, for it's relative precepts but, for the bad actors who align themselves with said religion. We now have Trump as the titular head of secularism. Do you really expect better from a secular approach?

 

[sandorski]

Is there any evidence in our entire history that our government is capable of acting this way? Half the people in these forums are ready to ban religion not, for it's relative precepts but, for the bad actors who align themselves with said religion. We now have Trump as the titular head of secularism. Do you really expect better from a secular approach?

Trump does not have a Religious bone in his body, but he has surrounded himself with so many open Theocrats I would conclude his Administration is not Secular in any way.

 

[whm1974]

Is there any evidence in our entire history that our government is capable of acting this way? Half the people in these forums are ready to ban religion not, for it's relative precepts but, for the bad actors who align themselves with said religion. We now have Trump as the titular head of secularism. Do you really expect better from a secular approach?

Oh yes the Government is very capable of acting like a Theocracy in practice. And yes, I do expect better from a secular approach.

 

[whm1974]

Trump does not have a Religious bone in his body, but he has surrounded himself with so many open Theocrats I would conclude his Administration is not Secular in any way.

You know, I used to think that The Handmaiden's Tale was just a book of fiction. Now I'm not so sure now due to all of the open Theocrats that support Trump.

 

[woolfe9998]

And as Humanity's actual knowledge increases, Beliefs in Supernatural Forces lessens.

The problem is that knowledge only spreads to the masses by gradual seepage at best. Hence the need for better education in science. Also important is if people get some actual education in critical reasoning and critical thinking. We currently get none of the latter unless we take it as an elective college course.

 

[cytg111]

Is there any evidence in our entire history that our government is capable of acting this way? Half the people in these forums are ready to ban religion not, for it's relative precepts but, for the bad actors who align themselves with said religion. We now have Trump as the titular head of secularism. Do you really expect better from a secular approach?

I think you are overrepresenting here.. A ban on religion would be so close to a ban on freedom of speech that noone wants it for real... I wouldnt mind dropkicking priests, imams etc. who believes and teaches its their way or nothing well out into the sea and make sure they dont reach the shore again.

 

[senseamp]

Religion is good business. Selling an imaginary product for real money. Tax Free. Can't beat that. I am thinking of maybe doing some religious startup when I retire. Especially now that it looks like churches will be funneling tax deductible political spending. Gotta get a cut of that dough.

 

[whm1974]

Religion is good business. Selling an imaginary product for real money. Tax Free. Can't beat that. I am thinking of maybe doing some religious startup when I retire. Especially now that it looks like churches will be funneling tax deductible political spending. Gotta get a cut of that dough.

Personally I rather scam the Religious Far Right out of money and use that to fund secular causes in order to undermine their plans for turning the US into a Theocracy.

 

[kage69]

Religion is good business. Selling an imaginary product for real money. Can't beat that. I am thinking of maybe doing some religious startup when I retire.

It's quite a set up isn't it? Don't forget the tax free status, and thanks to banana republican snowflakes legislating their religious snowflakism, their feels can now override the civil rights of their neighbors. The Johnson Amendment got axed, so American christianity's victim complex and it's war on science and liberty plods on. Next stop, Roe v Wade.

 

[Noah Abrams]

2. Personal freedom (you’re free to choose whether to believe or not)

There will always be conflict between the secular and the spiritual here. In so many aspects.

Pornography can be considered part of personal freedom. But those who are more spiritual view it as destructive poisoning of the environment, just as too much CO2 has been destroying the environment. Because from a secular viewpoint, sex is a pleasurable act. Others may see it as a deeply spiritual experience.

 

[whm1974]

There will always be conflict between the secular and the spiritual here. In so many aspects.

Pornography can be considered part of personal freedom. But those who are more spiritual view it as destructive poisoning of the environment, just as too much CO2 has been destroying the environment. Because from a secular viewpoint, sex is a pleasurable act. Others may see it as a deeply spiritual experience.

How is Pornography realistically a "destructive poisoning of the environment?" As long as it done by consenting adults, there is nothing wrong with it.