Sure, anyone in here that ridicules other peoples belief systems as idiotic or ignorant. If you're proselytizing it, you're trying to convert others to your belief system.
Sure, anyone in here that ridicules other peoples belief systems as idiotic or ignorant. If you're proselytizing it, you're trying to convert others to your belief system.Give us an example of someone here wanting to forcefully convert theists to Atheism? And while you at it, explain how Atheism is a belief system as well.
Excuse me but how is ridiculing other people belief systems the same thing as forcefully converting other people to Atheism? I lack any beliefs in any gods due to lo the lack of of evidence supporting such claims.Sure, anyone in here that ridicules other peoples belief systems as idiotic or ignorant. If you're proselytizing it, you're trying to convert others to your belief system.
By proselytizing Atheism or secularism you are just placing them as an alternative faith and belief system. 6 of one or half a dozen of the other, you just end up having faith in something.
What does spirituality have to do with religion. I find it frankly amazing that such things as awe and wonder and curiosity are not seen as having their roots in the spiritual nature of man.
You can't have wonder and awe looking at how far our species have come? And what in Hell is wrong with having knowledge to begin with?It is because we don't have the sense of awe and wonder to begin with, all of us being the products of a scientific, rational, secular culture. So your statement assumes something which I don't think is much present in the first place.
A child sees this beautiful luminous object in the night sky. Before he/she could even begin to sense its beauty, the school or society comes along and gives this object a name: moon. Informs the child that it just reflects the light of the sun and has none of its own. Those spots that the child sees, those are just craters on the surface of this moon entity. That this entity has a distance of exactly n number of miles from the earth. That is has no air. Science rationalizes the hell out of everything, and we are all so proud of it. Because as pointed out here in this thread, we have so much "knowledge".
These points are well taken, in my opinion, but I don't think much of anything that I say along those lines is very much present for the reasons you stated. Part of the problem as I see it is that people are so competitive owing to the competitive nature nature of everything in our society including the educational system, that questions have answers and you fail if you get the answer wrong. The easiest way to avert that anxiety is to never be wrong, at least in your own mind, that we are at a level where we know the answers to everything. I don't know, then, if that's a decent partial answer or a full answer but it makes sense to me.It is because we don't have the sense of awe and wonder to begin with, all of us being the products of a scientific, rational, secular culture. So your statement assumes something which I don't think is much present in the first place.
A child sees this beautiful luminous object in the night sky. Before he/she could even begin to sense its beauty, the school or society comes along and gives this object a name: moon. Informs the child that it just reflects the light of the sun and has none of its own. Those spots that the child sees, those are just craters on the surface of this moon entity. That this entity has a distance of exactly n number of miles from the earth. That is has no air. Science rationalizes the hell out of everything, and we are all so proud of it. Because as pointed out here in this thread, we have so much "knowledge".
Here is some knowledge. Human beings via self reflection and psychoanalysis have discovered that people can be motivated by feelings they actually don't acknowledge are there but are there anyway. This can include believing they know things that they don't actually know. Take the Dunning-Kruger effect as a related issue. This tells us there are people who believe they know things when in fact they don't. When you begin to see how much people think they know as compared to how much they really know, how little people question what they believe, this can cause at least some people to question their own level of knowledge as well. In this way we find people who are stuffed full of cabbage and people who question everything and especially what they think they know and may in fact not know at all. A great barrier to learning then becomes the notion that what you need to learn you already know. An even greater barrier is running around spouting open contempt for the truth.You can't have wonder and awe looking at how far our species have come? And what in Hell is wrong with having knowledge to begin with?
Excuse me but how is ridiculing other people belief systems the same thing as forcefully converting other people to Atheism? I lack any beliefs in any gods due to lo the lack of of evidence supporting such claims.
Could you show a link to the articles that mention this A.I.? And how did the programmers defined religion?It's funny that you mention this. There was an AI program designed to evaluate the elimination of religion. That you don't believe doesn't matter. Science doesn't matter because there's a lot of reconciliation possible.
The only effective way found was to assinate religious leaders that followed their faith. Kill the peaceful Jesus following Christian leaders and their equivalents. This wasn't a programmed option BTW, the machine was designed to evolve as more and more data and options became available. The programmers were somewhat embarrassed.
Could you show a link to the articles that mention this A.I.? And how did the programmers defined religion?
Ethical and moral concerns aside. This wouldn't work as the religiousness folks will simply begin to fight back and you would just end up increasing the levels of extremism. I'm surprised that the Christian Right hasn't made an uproar about this yet.
The only religious people I see as the Enemy are those who want force their beliefs and/or force me to abide by their beliefs.I believe being discreet about it was taken for granted.
Ethic and morality are interesting topics. I've seen many say that religion is the greatest cause of evil and war that exists. If that is the case wouldn't eliminating the leaders of the "enemy" make sense? That means leaving the very worst to bring down the faith? Having an enemy who does good might inhibit progress in terminating religion. How could Jesus be allowed to live?
Did you mean, "Ethical and moral concerns aside, this wouldn't work as the religiousness folks will simply begin to fight back and you would just end up increasing the levels of extremism. I'm surprised that the Christian Right hasn't made an uproar about this yet."?Ethical and moral concerns aside. This wouldn't work as the religiousness folks will simply begin to fight back and you would just end up increasing the levels of extremism. I'm surprised that the Christian Right hasn't made an uproar about this yet.
I didn't say the list was complete. That was just off the top of my head. And yes I would add #2 and #3 to my list as well.whm1974: The only religious people I see as the Enemy are those who want force their beliefs and/or force me to abide by their beliefs.
Here is what I would do instead:
Require all Schools, public and private to have mandatory Critical Thinking classes. (4)
Set up decent Social Safety nets so people can be sure that their basic needs can be met. (1)
Stronger Laws against Con men and their schemes. (1)
Strong education of science. (4)
Have measures in place to keep the 1% from having almost all the wealth. (1)
And other things.
1. Existential security (you have enough money and food)
2. Personal freedom (you’re free to choose whether to believe or not)
3. Pluralism (you have a welcoming attitude to diversity)
4. Education (you’ve got some training in the sciences and humanities)
You are shy on (2) and (3) and that means that if your 'other things" don't include those, progress toward secularism will slow or fail.
A secular society is not vital. A secular government is.
Excuse me but how is ridiculing other people belief systems the same thing as forcefully converting other people to Atheism? I lack any beliefs in any gods due to lo the lack of of evidence supporting such claims.
What FEMA re-education camps?It's important to recognize that freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.
Taj was thinking of the FEMA re-education camps of Jade Helm. It might have been a flashback to a false implanted memory, or something...
Hair splitting. How do you have one without the other? Who leads and enforces?
I didn't say you said your list was complete. I said it was lacking in 2 and 3 and that if those weren't among the things you didn't list movement to the appreciation of secularism would fail to grow. Here, when given an opportunity to expand you don't suggest anything, only that you have such things in mind. Also you failed to clarify the other post I had questions about, as I half expected.I didn't say the list was complete. That was just off the top of my head. And yes I would add #2 and #3 to my list as well.
What FEMA re-education camps?
The issue I have with religion and ideologies is not that they attack my beliefs, but whither or not they are they match the reality we live in and how they affect our survival and well-being. Evidence based reasoning should be used to inform our acceptance if something is true or not. Not just merely believing things on someone's say so.I didn't say you said your list was complete. I said it was lacking in 2 and 3 and that if those weren't among the things you didn't list movement to the appreciation of secularism would fail to grow. Here, when given an opportunity to expand you don't suggest anything, only that you have such things in mind. Also you failed to clarify the other post I had questions about, as I half expected.
Let me suggest that from where I stand it appears that you feel the truths you believe in are under assault by me, that I don't see the same flaws in religion that you do, that I don't the answer to the competitive nightmare we live in isn't more actual equality and regulation of unbridled greed etc. My issue is that at root in every philosophy and religion is the quest for justice and equality. What I find problematic with your view is that you have the answers, one of them being the elimination of religious belief. But since the root of religion is the same root that drives you, the quest for justice and equality, what religion needs is not destruction but reformation to it's original purpose. That will only happen by the work done by those who have most evolved via their religion, those who feel it's real meaning. You don't seem to get that the same disease that destroys religion destroys everything including anything you formalize as a secular belief. What we believe that we attach ego welfare to we will kill to protect because we will not feel our pain.
Thanks, now I remember that one. Things people will believe without any evidence to back them up...It's a long running right wing conspiracy theory enlivened by Obama's presidency-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEMA_camps_conspiracy_theory
In shout you didn't understand a word I said. I have no problem with the idea that religious systems should match the reality we live in and how they affect our survival and well being is important. My problem is believing I am capable of knowing when that may be the case in any specific example or wrong. You have ideals that I can support. What I have problems with is that your notions that you are capable of what is and what's not lack a great deal of reflection and humility. For example, I used to be a person of faith and became an Atheist and only in that way was able to discover what I think real faith is. Like you, I do not believe in the gods you don't believe in because they don't exist. The claims religions make about them make no sense to me. For you that's the end of the story, you don't believe in things that make no sense, for which no proof exists. You saw through the delusion of belief but my expereince was in seeing through the delusion of doubt. God is only when one enters a God conscious state. It isn't a thing out there but an kind of awareness that ends thought and time. It includes the ending of questions such as to provide a certainty of knowing within, that one can enter that state only empty of ones thousand tons of cabbage. More discover this state and are free of delusion via religion than any other way and that is because buried in the garbage that people make of religion are traces of truth that can awaken those who sleep. I find your attitude toward religion, therefore, to be quite limited, the result of a lack of information and experience. To me you are just as dangerous in your ignorance as any religious fanatic. Like them you believe what you know to be the truth.The issue I have with religion and ideologies is not that they attack my beliefs, but whither or not they are they match the reality we live in and how they affect our survival and well-being. Evidence based reasoning should be used to inform our acceptance if something is true or not. Not just merely believing things on someone's say so.
In what way am I just as dangerous as any religious fanatic? I don't demand that other people agree with me about any subject and neither do I call for the suppression of civil and human rights of those who disagree with me either.In shout you didn't understand a word I said. I have no problem with the idea that religious systems should match the reality we live in and how they affect our survival and well being is important. My problem is believing I am capable of knowing when that may be the case in any specific example or wrong. You have ideals that I can support. What I have problems with is that your notions that you are capable of what is and what's not lack a great deal of reflection and humility. For example, I used to be a person of faith and became an Atheist and only in that way was able to discover what I think real faith is. Like you, I do not believe in the gods you don't believe in because they don't exist. The claims religions make about them make no sense to me. For you that's the end of the story, you don't believe in things that make no sense, for which no proof exists. You saw through the delusion of belief but my expereince was in seeing through the delusion of doubt. God is only when one enters a God conscious state. It isn't a thing out there but an kind of awareness that ends thought and time. It includes the ending of questions such as to provide a certainty of knowing within, that one can enter that state only empty of ones thousand tons of cabbage. More discover this state and are free of delusion via religion than any other way and that is because buried in the garbage that people make of religion are traces of truth that can awaken those who sleep. I find your attitude toward religion, therefore, to be quite limited, the result of a lack of information and experience. To me you are just as dangerous in your ignorance as any religious fanatic. Like them you believe what you know to be the truth.
I believe, then, that the way I see things is more inclusive and a better way to create a more secular world. We are all the same and it is that inner truth that drives us to seek equality in the world. Equality is justice and even monkeys know when a game is not fair and they will not play. There is only love because it is love that drives the the need for equality and justice.