How U.S. Fell Under the Spell of 'Curveball'

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Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
It's getting harder to stomach the liberal mavens. I appreciate political dialogue, and while I don't often agree with with the learned Libs, at least they offer carefully reasoned food for thought. But this venomous barrage of hallucinations in the mold of Molly Ivins and Maureen Dowd is beyond belief... the manufactured reality of some of you political hacks makes it more difficult than ever to take you seriously.

First it was the style over substance rants, that labelled Bush as an incoherent buffoon. That didn't really go anywhere. Then there were the Bush-mistake/No WMDs rants, but that didn't achieve the right results either. Now we have an elevated "BUSH LIED" strategy that's sure to fail because there can be no real proof, just a collection of theories and beliefs.

It's a last ditch effort because all others have been exhausted. Buoyed by polls, and with a faint taste of blood, the Dems are jumping onto a ship that's sure to sink... and take their political hopes to the bottom also. I see this as a last gasp of desperation of a party on the rocks.

Dues-paying members lof the "Bush Lied" fanclub like Kerry, Edwards, both Clintons, and Rockefeller are lying opportunists, feeding at the wounds of a now unpopular president. The fact that these people are willing to expose themselves as dupes or liars to thwart Bush politically is both sicking and humorous to watch.

As the usual goofball fanatics on P&N seek out their sweet revenge, they have committed themselves to a revisionist, false view of history... and on that ignores the solid evidence of a half-dozen commission investigations. Like a chorus of ducks quacking over and over again, they have seemed to stumbled upon a presidential lowpoint, and now they think they're gaining ground with the lies and propaganda.

Instead of using this as an opportunity to advance a clear and rational alternative, they just crank of volume of the "Bush-Lied" mantra. I gotta hand it to the Left... they're a lot more stupid than I thought. I guess that's why the Dems have been floundering, since they appear to be getting more deliriously unhinged in their losing ways, instead of strategizing a sensible comeback. Bravo.


I agree..basically, decent conversation can be had in spite of most of them, rather than along with most of them... they remind me of those tennis ball machines where every 3 seconds like clockwork something flies out, but instead of tennis balls of course it's a jerkoff one or two-liner.

A PandN thread goes like this:

Plop! Bush lied thousands died
Plop! No war for oil
Plop! LOL the new US of Halliburton
Plop! We've already lost in Iraq
Plop! Bush orchestrated 9/11
Plop! PNAC!
Plop! Neo-Con
Plop! Karl Rove
Plop! Chimpy
Plop! The USA of Jesus
Plop! Bush lied thousands died
Plop! No war for oil
Plop! LOL the new US of Halliburton
Plop! We've already lost in Iraq
Plop! Bush orchestrated 9/11
Plop! PNAC!
Plop! Neo-Con
Plop! Karl Rove
Plop! Chimpy
Plop! The USA of JesusPlop! Bush lied thousands died
Plop! No war for oil
Plop! LOL the new US of Halliburton
Plop! We've already lost in Iraq
Plop! Bush orchestrated 9/11
Plop! PNAC!
Plop! Neo-Con
Plop! Karl Rove
Plop! Chimpy
Plop! The USA of JesusPlop! Bush lied thousands died
Plop! No war for oil
Plop! LOL the new US of Halliburton
Plop! We've already lost in Iraq
Plop! Bush orchestrated 9/11
Plop! PNAC!
Plop! Neo-Con
Plop! Karl Rove
Plop! Chimpy
Plop! The USA of JesusPlop! Bush lied thousands died
Plop! No war for oil
Plop! LOL the new US of Halliburton
Plop! We've already lost in Iraq
Plop! Bush orchestrated 9/11
Plop! PNAC!
Plop! Neo-Con
Plop! Karl Rove
Plop! Chimpy
Plop! The USA of Jesus
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Please, gentlemen- are your memories quite so short, or so convenient?

The invasion of Iraq had been much sought after in some circles, particularly of the neocon kind, ever since GHWB declined to fulfill their wishes. They didn't need a reason, they needed a pretext, and 9/11 was that, and more...

Saddam! 9/11! Osama! 9/11! Terrarists! Iraq! 9/11! Nukes! 9/11! WMD's! 9/11! Terrar! Terrar! Terrar!

The number of times that whole bit was strung together in the media has to be in the millions... with a steady drumbeat of agitprop from the Whitehouse... The CIA and others said the african uranium info was unreliable, but they used it anyway. The Germans warned that curveball was unreliable, too, but they used it anyway. The DOE said the aluminum tubes were unsuitable for uranium centrifuges, but they used that anyway... Chalabi was known as a liar and a thief, but they used whatever he gave them, anyway...

They used whatever they could force-fit into a rationale for war, while smearing, threatening or dismissing anybody who said anything different... Saddam and the top 500 persons in the Baath party could have surrendered at the Kuwaiti border, and they'd have invaded anyway...

:thumbsup: They did the same to the Soviet Union, too.

If anything, we probably knew Iraq had no WMD's.


Sure Pal. The soviet union was never a threat and Bush knew there were no WMDs but everyone else in the world didn't.

Poor Bush, in a liberal's mind he goes from Evil Overlord Capable of Fooling All and Orchestrating Everything from 9/11 to The Failure of Levvies In NO

to

A Total Dunce Incapable of Even Speaking English Properly

All depending on what is convienent for the latest 2 Minutes Hate on W.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: Frackal
I agree generally that Rumsfeld, Cheney were definitely pro-Saddam removal, they advocated such in a signed PNAC letter to Clinton in the late 90's. Bush probably was too, but I'd have to read more before saying anything for sure, one reason being that I've heard a few times that Bush was 'wavering' a bit on the WMD thing and asked Tenet "are you sure?" and that's when he responded with the famous "slam dunk" statement.

I dont think they entered into the Iraq issue after 2001 in an objective/exploratory way, but I dont think they knew that Saddam lacked WMDs and decided to go in anyway. Also, remember that regime-change had become official policy already under Clinton with the Iraqi Liberation Act. http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/libera.htm

From 1998:

"Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 - Declares that it should be the policy of the United States to seek to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power in Iraq and to replace it with a democratic government. "


http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Legislation/ILA.htm


The notion that somehow it was the Bush admin who first coined the idea of getting rid of Saddam is innaccurate. They were just decided to do it militarily, for right or wrong.

Thanks for this link! It might help the ridiculous supporters of the Democratic Party face reality. They refuse to see that the Democratic Party voted for the colonization of Iraq, not to get rid of WMDs. Clinton killed many more Iraqis than Bush Jr. : Albright admitted that they killed 500,000 Iraqi children. The role of Clinton was to destroy the basic services in Iraq, like water treatment, health care, to lower the standards of living, to destroy the Iraqi economy, to send it back to the Third World. Then, once colonized, the Iraqis would cost less to the puppet Iraqi state (which means that taxes on US corporations owning the newly privatized Iraqi economy would be much lower than in the US, or than in Europe), like in any Third World nation colonized by the US (taxes are higher in developed nations, to pay for many public services), and the privatization of the bankrupt economy would cost little to the US buyers (especially considering the growth potential, just by repairing things). The colonization has been a long term strategic goal of the handlers of the unique Demoblican-Repucratic Party: Wall Street, the Pentagon, the CIA. The mass-media have one goal: brainwashing you into adhering to those goals, although at first they had to lie to you to gain your support, now they do their best to help you justify the presence of the US in Iraq. In the end their goal is to have you believe that Iraq is now a democratic country, not a puppet dictatorship. That is a lie of course, but you do not know it. If you want to realize that your media lied to you, you can read this article by the most respected journalist (all over the world except in the US) that writes about Iraq:

A Constitutional Referendum that Wasn?t
Dahr Jamail

published November 15, © 2005 by Dahr Jamail

Did anyone else find it interesting that the results of the vote on Iraq?s constitution passing (which occurred ten days earlier) were released on the same day of the announcement of the 2,000th US soldier having been killed in Iraq?

On October 25, the first news of the day about Iraq across most corporate media outlets in the US was that Iraq was celebrating the approval of a new constitution. Just hours after this news, Mr. Bush made a pre-emptive propaganda move in an attempt to blunt the blow of the incoming news of the 2,000 milestone, by telling a group of military wives at an air force base in Washington "This war will require more sacrifice, more time and more resolve."

Then, less than three hours after this speech, the news of the 2,000th US soldier dying was poured across the headlines; conveniently timed in that the Department of Defense usually has several deaths awaiting confirmation for days before they may be announced publicly.

But that?s old news now. With troop levels soon to be over 161,000 in Iraq (remember when it was 138,000?) and the death toll over 2,030 and increasing daily, more milestones loom as a failed political process is pushed forward. We just passed another, in fact; with at least ninety-three troops killed in October, which made it the bloodiest month since January.

Similar to how the invasion of Iraq was wrapped in bright and shining lies in order to be sold to the people of the United States, the recent constitutional referendum vote in Iraq occurred in a similar vein.

"You cannot wage a war without rumors, without media, without propaganda," said Samir Khader, a senior producer at the Al-Jazeera Satellite Television Network, "Any military planner who plans for a war, if he doesn?t put media/propaganda on top of his agenda, he?s a bad military."

The vote had many similarities to the farce which took place on January 30?aside from a repeat of the draconian measures to provide security and quite a large dose of propaganda.

Just prior to the so-called constitutional referendum vote in occupied Iraq, one of my close friends in Baghdad wrote me, "I would like to point out that we are three days away from the referendum, yet very large sectors of Iraqi people couldn?t receive part of the five million copies [of the constitution] from the UN, i.e.?they will not know what the constitution contains...what kind of vote is this?"

His confusion makes sense, considering that only five million copies of the so-called constitution were printed and supposedly distributed to 12.5 million registered voters in Iraq. The spokesman for the White House proclaimed that "tens of millions" of copies of the constitution were printed and distributed, then failed to comment on the fact that hours before the vote occurred a clause was added to the constitution stating it could be amended by the incoming government for four months after they take power.

This last-minute attempt to garner Sunni support failed to accomplish much, as Sunni leaders were all too aware of the fact that the possibility of amending the constitution, which would require a two-thirds vote by the Shia/Kurdish dominated parliament, would be virtually impossible.

The inconsistencies hadn?t started there, however, because the constitution was to have been completed by August 1. But despite illegal delays which were not even backed by the parliament in Iraq, the controversial portions of the document like federalism and Sharia Islamic Law were not even worked out prior to the vote. Thus, an incomplete draft of the constitution was put to vote, without a vote of authorization by the Iraqi government.

US Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad even consistently pressured the Iraqi government to accept his own drafts of articles which included words like "oil" and "military bases" in the so-called constitution in the weeks leading up to the vote.

"It is a matter of public record that in the final weeks of the process the newly arrived US ambassador (Zalmay Khalilzad) took an extremely hands-on role," Justin Alexander, legal affairs officer for the office of constitutional support with the United Nations Assistance Mission to Iraq told me. "Even going so far as to circulate at least one US draft."

Figures provided by several governorates required Iraq?s Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) to order (under heavy Sunni political pressure) "re-examination, comparison and verification because they [voter turnout figures] are relatively high compared with international averages for elections" of this kind; according to a statement made by the IEC.

This occurred rather inconveniently after US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice?s nearly instantaneous belief and statement that the constitution "has probably been passed," despite what the IEC referred to in findings showing "that figures from most provinces were too high," referencing voter turnout.

Huge discrepancies were reported in the Nineveh governorate, which includes Mosul, showing that while sources close to the IEC were quoted saying that fifty-five percent of the voters there voted against the constitution, which meant the constitution was accepted due to not having a two-thirds vote against it. However, Abd al-Razaq al-Jiburi, the secretary general of the Iraqi Independent Front said contradictorily, "I have been informed by an employee of the electoral high commission in Mosul that the voting for the constitution has been 'no.?"

He went on to add that his sources within the IEC said the "no" vote in Nineveh ranged between seventy-five and eighty percent, which would have defeated the constitution as Al-Anbar and Salahedin governorates had already voted it down.

This, on top of widespread accusations of ballot stuffing and missing ballot boxes from predominantly Sunni regions reported by Arab outlets such as Al-Ahram and Al-Jazeera, added a dark cloud of confusion and doubt over the entire referendum process.

Nevertheless, now the stage is set for a vote for a new Iraqi government on December 15, which is sure to deepen the divide which is fracturing Iraq. Between the institutionalization of Sharia Law, federalism and the possibility of an increasingly powerful Kurdistan, the Sunni population in Iraq only becomes more disenfranchised.

The idea of political stability seems more of a pipe dream in Iraq now than it did before the recent vote on the constitution.

Hinting at things to come in December, Sunni leader Saleh Mutlaq told reporters: "Violence is not the only solution, if politics offers solutions so that we can move in that direction. But there is very little hope that we can make any gains in the elections."

Hussein al-Falluji, another prominent Sunni politician, said the referendum was manipulated by Washington, and added, "We all know that this referendum was fraud conducted by an electoral commission that is not independent. It is controlled by the occupying Americans and it should step down before elections in December."

This is against the backdrop of the recent news of a survey commissioned by the British military in Iraq. The survey found that eighty-two percent of Iraqis "strongly oppose" the continuing presence of coalition troops and forty-five percent of Iraqis felt that attacks against coalition troops are justified.

Dahr Jamail is an independent journalist from Anchorage, Alaska. Jamail has spent eight months reporting from Iraq for outlets such as The Ester Republic, The Nation, The Guardian, and the Sunday Herald in Scotland. Jamail is currently touring parts of the US giving slideshow presentations about his experiences in Iraq.

:: Article nr. 18036 sent on 21-nov-2005 01:41 ECT

:: The address of this page is : www.uruknet.info?p=18036

:: The incoming address of this article is :
www.esterrepublic.com/Archives/djamail12.html
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
When you are eager for war, you put up blinders.

I will admit, I was eager for war...especially post 9/11.

We are really stuck their until things get in order....

We could just leave, wait for civil war and then let things sort themselves out.

Nations ravaged by war having to rebuild themselves is nothing new.

I wanted vengeance after 9/11 as well. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan and the destruction of the al queda training camps and the Taliban. I even swallowed administration claims Iraq had WMD and was ready to use them on us. Of course you can see how pissed people get when they've been lied to in such an instance. You're also correct in your assessment that we are in an untenable situation. Nothing is going to be right now that it's been discovered that the whole thing is a sham. There are no good
options, including staying. So we pull out- and if our interests are threatened, send in the long range bombers and reactionary forces to take care of it. Beyond that, one can hope that the American people will learn to educate themselves better next time before electing someone like George Bush to the Presidency.

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: arsbanned
"Manufactered reality" indeed. Couldn't have said it better myself.

At least the American public is waking up. Only 3 states have a Propagandist approval rating >50%
http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005/50StatePOTUS1105SortbyApproval.htm
Orwell would be proud of you guys. Well, maybe "proud" isn't the right word...
Disputing the truth now?


Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


Disputing what truth?

Somehow, I think you're incapable of knowing what truth is, unless it serves your range-of-the-moment political fantasies.

When I read your posts it's as though I'm stuck in a parallel universe where up is down and black is white. The bizarre thing is that you are writing the exact sentences I would respond to you with!

Originally posted by: Frackal
Originally posted by: cwjerome
It's getting harder to stomach the liberal mavens. I appreciate political dialogue, and while I don't often agree with with the learned Libs, at least they offer carefully reasoned food for thought. But this venomous barrage of hallucinations in the mold of Molly Ivins and Maureen Dowd is beyond belief... the manufactured reality of some of you political hacks makes it more difficult than ever to take you seriously.

First it was the style over substance rants, that labelled Bush as an incoherent buffoon. That didn't really go anywhere. Then there were the Bush-mistake/No WMDs rants, but that didn't achieve the right results either. Now we have an elevated "BUSH LIED" strategy that's sure to fail because there can be no real proof, just a collection of theories and beliefs.

It's a last ditch effort because all others have been exhausted. Buoyed by polls, and with a faint taste of blood, the Dems are jumping onto a ship that's sure to sink... and take their political hopes to the bottom also. I see this as a last gasp of desperation of a party on the rocks.

Dues-paying members lof the "Bush Lied" fanclub like Kerry, Edwards, both Clintons, and Rockefeller are lying opportunists, feeding at the wounds of a now unpopular president. The fact that these people are willing to expose themselves as dupes or liars to thwart Bush politically is both sicking and humorous to watch.

As the usual goofball fanatics on P&N seek out their sweet revenge, they have committed themselves to a revisionist, false view of history... and on that ignores the solid evidence of a half-dozen commission investigations. Like a chorus of ducks quacking over and over again, they have seemed to stumbled upon a presidential lowpoint, and now they think they're gaining ground with the lies and propaganda.

Instead of using this as an opportunity to advance a clear and rational alternative, they just crank of volume of the "Bush-Lied" mantra. I gotta hand it to the Left... they're a lot more stupid than I thought. I guess that's why the Dems have been floundering, since they appear to be getting more deliriously unhinged in their losing ways, instead of strategizing a sensible comeback. Bravo.


I agree..basically, decent conversation can be had in spite of most of them, rather than along with most of them... they remind me of those tennis ball machines where every 3 seconds like clockwork something flies out, but instead of tennis balls of course it's a jerkoff one or two-liner.

A PandN thread goes like this:

_snip_

Quit trolling. I could easily come up with a seriers of talking points and ascribe them the the Right wingers in here. In fact, NeoCons are much easier to parody than Libbies.

Note: Who screwed up the formatting? Fricken gotta scroll from side to side. Arggghhhh.!
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
Hey CWJ, you may want to check your voter registration card for a list of political parties that are currently 'floundering'
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Topic Title: How U.S. Fell Under the Spell of 'Curveball'
Topic Summary: The lies used to sell the Iraq War continue to unravel . . .

That's the problem with being a two-term President: The lies you spewed during your first term are just starting to be discovered during your second. How embarassing this must be for the administration who just can't stop covering up their outrageous BS.

Everyone saw the same intel, huh? Riiiiiiiiight, only the idiots in our current administration (A) believed it, (B) decided to go to war over it. Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.
:|

No, what's more pathetic is the people that supported them and still support them to their dying breath, there are loads of them in here.

I don't feel sorry for the Country. In fact they can have all the crap and then some. My new lady wants me all to herself and the hell with the Country.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
I'ts quite apparent that before the administration began making the case for war, they probably believed Saddam had WMD's and was developing a nuclear program. However, I believe that this administration wanted to go to war at all costs, and when they began looking at intelligence and realizing that there was absolutely little or no intelligence supporting their claims they began to fudge the data and cherry-pick what they wanted to show Congress and the American people. I honestly don't know how I could live with myself if I were Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, or any of the administration members responsible for this.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Disputing what truth?

Somehow, I think you're incapable of knowing what truth is, unless it serves your range-of-the-moment political fantasies.
So what IS the truth, Jerome? Was Curveball on the level? Was his intel about the mobile bio labs ever borne out? Did Bush and Company NOT spew Curveball's BS, exaggerate it further, and then tout it as fact in front of the whole world despite being told he was an unreliable source of intel?

Is that YOUR version of events? 'Cause otherwise you're just pissing in the wind here and jumping on the left again for no good reason.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Frackal
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Please, gentlemen- are your memories quite so short, or so convenient?

The invasion of Iraq had been much sought after in some circles, particularly of the neocon kind, ever since GHWB declined to fulfill their wishes. They didn't need a reason, they needed a pretext, and 9/11 was that, and more...

Saddam! 9/11! Osama! 9/11! Terrarists! Iraq! 9/11! Nukes! 9/11! WMD's! 9/11! Terrar! Terrar! Terrar!

The number of times that whole bit was strung together in the media has to be in the millions... with a steady drumbeat of agitprop from the Whitehouse... The CIA and others said the african uranium info was unreliable, but they used it anyway. The Germans warned that curveball was unreliable, too, but they used it anyway. The DOE said the aluminum tubes were unsuitable for uranium centrifuges, but they used that anyway... Chalabi was known as a liar and a thief, but they used whatever he gave them, anyway...

They used whatever they could force-fit into a rationale for war, while smearing, threatening or dismissing anybody who said anything different... Saddam and the top 500 persons in the Baath party could have surrendered at the Kuwaiti border, and they'd have invaded anyway...

:thumbsup: They did the same to the Soviet Union, too.

If anything, we probably knew Iraq had no WMD's.


Sure Pal. The soviet union was never a threat and Bush knew there were no WMDs but everyone else in the world didn't.

Poor Bush, in a liberal's mind he goes from Evil Overlord Capable of Fooling All and Orchestrating Everything from 9/11 to The Failure of Levvies In NO

to

A Total Dunce Incapable of Even Speaking English Properly

All depending on what is convienent for the latest 2 Minutes Hate on W.

I'm no Liberal. In fact I occassionally still refer to myself as a Republican. I've never voted for a Dem in my life. I would be happy to rejoin my Republican party, as soon as it starts acting like it again. The NeoCons have invaded the party.

As for the Soviet Union, you aught to do some research and find out what I am talking about. Rumsfeld and gang made them out to be much more of a threat than they were, even though our own CIA said he was wrong.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Disputing what truth?

Somehow, I think you're incapable of knowing what truth is, unless it serves your range-of-the-moment political fantasies.
So what IS the truth, Jerome? Was Curveball on the level? Was his intel about the mobile bio labs ever borne out? Did Bush and Company NOT spew Curveball's BS, exaggerate it further, and then tout it as fact in front of the whole world despite being told he was an unreliable source of intel?

Is that YOUR version of events? 'Cause otherwise you're just pissing in the wind here and jumping on the left again for no good reason.

My reply was regarding Conjur's comments about polls. Since you like context-dropping, I'll answer your question concerning Curveball.

Many intel mistakes were made, and the administration was wrong for accepting what he had to say as much as they did. That's all.

The point I have been making here is a simple political observation of the Angry Left?. This whole amped up Bush-Lied propaganda will fail politically, just like all the other dumbass strategies the Left has tried in the past 4 years. It's like clockwork, that Bush is low in the polls and you people resort to the worse possible tactics: Conspiracies, lies, and hairbrained theories. I have a better idea... try devising a clear ideological framework, then put forth a workable political implementation plan, and then field a candidate that isn't some boring, snooty Lib.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Disputing what truth?

Somehow, I think you're incapable of knowing what truth is, unless it serves your range-of-the-moment political fantasies.
So what IS the truth, Jerome? Was Curveball on the level? Was his intel about the mobile bio labs ever borne out? Did Bush and Company NOT spew Curveball's BS, exaggerate it further, and then tout it as fact in front of the whole world despite being told he was an unreliable source of intel?

Is that YOUR version of events? 'Cause otherwise you're just pissing in the wind here and jumping on the left again for no good reason.

My reply was regarding Conjur's comments about polls. Since you like context-dropping, I'll answer your question concerning Curveball.

Many intel mistakes were made, and the administration was wrong for accepting what he had to say as much as they did. That's all.

The point I have been making here is a simple political observation of the Angry Left?. This whole amped up Bush-Lied propaganda will fail politically, just like all the other dumbass strategies the Left has tried in the past 4 years. It's like clockwork, that Bush is low in the polls and you people resort to the worse possible tactics: Conspiracies, lies, and hairbrained theories. I have a better idea... try devising a clear ideological framework, then put forth a workable political implementation plan, and then field a candidate that isn't some boring, snooty Lib.
So the Dub wasn't guilty of lying just gross incompetence.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Disputing what truth?

Somehow, I think you're incapable of knowing what truth is, unless it serves your range-of-the-moment political fantasies.
So what IS the truth, Jerome? Was Curveball on the level? Was his intel about the mobile bio labs ever borne out? Did Bush and Company NOT spew Curveball's BS, exaggerate it further, and then tout it as fact in front of the whole world despite being told he was an unreliable source of intel?

Is that YOUR version of events? 'Cause otherwise you're just pissing in the wind here and jumping on the left again for no good reason.

My reply was regarding Conjur's comments about polls. Since you like context-dropping, I'll answer your question concerning Curveball.

Many intel mistakes were made, and the administration was wrong for accepting what he had to say as much as they did. That's all.

The point I have been making here is a simple political observation of the Angry Left?. This whole amped up Bush-Lied propaganda will fail politically, just like all the other dumbass strategies the Left has tried in the past 4 years. It's like clockwork, that Bush is low in the polls and you people resort to the worse possible tactics: Conspiracies, lies, and hairbrained theories. I have a better idea... try devising a clear ideological framework, then put forth a workable political implementation plan, and then field a candidate that isn't some boring, snooty Lib.

Just trying to get you back on-topic, that's all. For the sake of simplicity, let's just examine what we have here in this very thread -- we have a foreign intel org, one of the very orgs that Bush claims agreed with the assessment of Saddam's capabilities -- outright accusing Bush and the CIA of touting very unreliable sources as fact.

And this thread's narrow focus is only the tip of the iceberg. You'd have to be completely brainwashed to NOT see the emerging pool of evidence showing the administration manipulated and cherry-picked the intel to convince Congress and the American public to go to war. If that doesn't constitute lying, then I'm sure you'd like to spar over the meaning of the word "is" next . . .

I know you feel like the war and the justifications for war are now "old hat" and we should move past it, however I've been consistantly against the idea of pre-emptive war against Iraq from the very beginning. I'm not conveniently changing my tune to take advantage of low poll numbers. In fact, to even suggest so is ridiculous.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, that?s ok. The Propagandist is ?not a stable, psychologically stable guy? either. He says he talks to God for crying out loud.
Were your children baptised? If so, it would seem a bit hypocritical to condemn a man for claiming to speak with God, when you yourself hold ceremony to sprinkle the forehead of your kids with "magic water" to grant them eternal salvation and commitment to the son of this God, no?

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
I'll let that digression of your better judgement slip off into the bit bucket, cK. You know WAY better than to start down *that* path.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: conjur
Back to the topic.


Meet John Rendon, the man that helped sell the war
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/st...ion&rnd=1132258732457&has-player=false


Premeditated invasion.
I wish Bush Sr. would have just taken out Saddam in 1991...would have saved us a whole heap of trouble.
Would have been better off if the U.S. hadn't supported him like they did back in the 90s.

But, Poppy, Baker, Scowcroft, Powell, et al all knew the dangers in invading and occupying Iraq. Too bad the PNAC/WINEP neocons didn't learn from their involvement in Vietnam and Nixon-era scandals.
 

ShadesOfGrey

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2005
1,523
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Disputing what truth?

Somehow, I think you're incapable of knowing what truth is, unless it serves your range-of-the-moment political fantasies.
So what IS the truth, Jerome? Was Curveball on the level? Was his intel about the mobile bio labs ever borne out? Did Bush and Company NOT spew Curveball's BS, exaggerate it further, and then tout it as fact in front of the whole world despite being told he was an unreliable source of intel?

Is that YOUR version of events? 'Cause otherwise you're just pissing in the wind here and jumping on the left again for no good reason.

My reply was regarding Conjur's comments about polls. Since you like context-dropping, I'll answer your question concerning Curveball.

Many intel mistakes were made, and the administration was wrong for accepting what he had to say as much as they did. That's all.

The point I have been making here is a simple political observation of the Angry Left?. This whole amped up Bush-Lied propaganda will fail politically, just like all the other dumbass strategies the Left has tried in the past 4 years. It's like clockwork, that Bush is low in the polls and you people resort to the worse possible tactics: Conspiracies, lies, and hairbrained theories. I have a better idea... try devising a clear ideological framework, then put forth a workable political implementation plan, and then field a candidate that isn't some boring, snooty Lib.
So the Dub wasn't guilty of lying just gross incompetence.

Incompetence? For believing what the Intel agencies were stating? Sure, he's guilty of not demanding reformation of the CIA proactively :roll:
But according to your logic all the nay-saying(now) Congress people were "incompetent" since they were duped by the stupid "chimp".
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0

_snip_
Quit trolling. I could easily come up with a seriers of talking points and ascribe them the the Right wingers in here. In fact, NeoCons are much easier to parody than Libbies.

Note: Who screwed up the formatting? Fricken gotta scroll from side to side. Arggghhhh.!

I didn't notice. Maybe you should get a 2005FPW.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
From Shades-

"Incompetence? For believing what the Intel agencies were stating? Sure, he's guilty of not demanding reformation of the CIA proactively
But according to your logic all the nay-saying(now) Congress people were "incompetent" since they were duped by the stupid "chimp"."

Let's see... the CIA and the DoD hire the Rendon group to create the INC and "manage information" in pursuit of Iraqi regime change, all of which is obviously known at the highest levels of three admins, the Bush admin being the most recent... When the information thus created is shown to be false, it's called an "intelligence failure", which it is , just not the kind they're talking about. It's one thing to create such propaganda, entirely another to believe it yourself, which is what the Bush Admin and their supporters would have us believe... that they had no idea that such an operation had been in existence, honest...
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,199
5,778
126

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: conjur
Back to the topic.


Meet John Rendon, the man that helped sell the war
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/st...ion&rnd=1132258732457&has-player=false


Premeditated invasion.


I wish Bush Sr. would have just taken out Saddam in 1991...would have saved us a whole heap of trouble.

He didn't, because, well, watch the news. IOW, he chose wisely, his son didn't.

:thumbsup: It would have been a dump idea back then, and it was a dumb idea when his son decided to do it. The NeoCons were not too happy with Bush Sr. for not going all the way.
 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Incompetence? For believing what the Intel agencies were stating? Sure, he's guilty of not demanding reformation of the CIA proactively :roll:
no, you are right. Instead, George W. Bush did this in response to the CIA's performance in pre-Iraq war intelligence. Post Iraq occupation? yep. rewarding incompetence since 2001
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
But according to your logic all the nay-saying(now) Congress people were "incompetent" since they were duped by the stupid "chimp".

exactly, GWB didn't MISLEAD the United States or the American people on intelligence. The Democrats and the American people misfollowed. :roll:
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: conjur
I'll let that digression of your better judgement slip off into the bit bucket, cK. You know WAY better than to start down *that* path.
What path is that? I'm not trying to put this at a personal level, just pointing out that in a country (and world) where a great, great number of people perform a wide variety of seemingly bizarre rituals in the name of religion, for you to pick one simple thing like "he says he talks to God" and use that to paint Bush as an obvious "psychologically unstable person" is absurd and foolish.

I'll never understand why, with a President with so many glaring faults, coupled with a disasterous track record, so many bitter critics still resort to patently stupid and childish insults to try and make their points. Here we have a sitting President who's cabinet is under indictment, has led us into a tragically flawed war, and has been a driving force behind our huge deficit, yet people still cling to their "he looks like a monkey" and "he says he talk to God" talking points like some sort of verbal security blankets for their "proof" that he's a lousy President.

Those things rank right up there with "he's a flip-flopper." Simple thoughts for simple minds, I suppose.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
It was but one example. I didn't feel the need for a litany of the many well-known character and logic flaws contained within the Propagandist.
 
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