How Would You Classify the Jehovah's Witnesses?

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Mormons are the same way; to a certain extent so are Scientologists but they're definitely a cult.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
0
0
I'm pretty sure all organized religion would be classified as a cult if we looked at it objectively. Just look up the definition. We like to think that "our" cult isn't a cult but that's not really the case. We just like to think that they're not cults because there are a lot of people in it.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Troll thread.

EDIT: As per the DC rules, I am required to explain why I think this is a troll thread.

1) The most obvious reason is that the OP hasn't come back to explain his position, nor is he participating in the thread.

2) The OP didn't really give us two options; he's obviously saying the JW's are a cult and aren't Christian.

3) Calling any individual religious group a cult in the thread title is as inflammatory as they come; a tactic used to only illicit disparaging responses.

Thank you.
 
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silicon

Senior member
Nov 27, 2004
886
1
81
Troll thread.

EDIT: As per the DC rules, I am required to explain why I think this is a troll thread.

1) The most obvious reason is that the OP hasn't come back to explain his position, nor is he participating in the thread.

2) The OP didn't really give us two options; he's obviously saying the JW's are a cult and aren't Christian.

3) Calling any individual religious group a cult in the thread title is as inflammatory as they come; a tactic used to only illicit disparaging responses.

Thank you.
Sorry not a troll thread but a legitimate question on my part since I had this discussion just recently. Not an attempt to disparage the JW's, just looking for opinions which is fair enough. However the moderators should remove this thread if it is deemed inappropriate.
 
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alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Troll thread.

EDIT: As per the DC rules, I am required to explain why I think this is a troll thread.

1) The most obvious reason is that the OP hasn't come back to explain his position, nor is he participating in the thread.

2) The OP didn't really give us two options; he's obviously saying the JW's are a cult and aren't Christian.

3) Calling any individual religious group a cult in the thread title is as inflammatory as they come; a tactic used to only illicit disparaging responses.

Thank you.

Looks like the OP struck a nerve.

Since the mods haven't locked it they either haven't seen it or they don't consider it a troll thread.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
I wonder if you took a poll today among evangelical Christians whether to make the official religion of the Unites States Christianity, how many would vote yes.

(Don't include the choice to vote for it already being the official religion, or that could quite possibly win).

Who was recently in the news arguing that the constitution's protections for religious freedoms only apply to Christianity?
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
I wonder if you took a poll today among evangelical Christians whether to make the official religion of the Unites States Christianity, how many would vote yes.

(Don't include the choice to vote for it already being the official religion, or that could quite possibly win).

Who was recently in the news arguing that the constitution's protections for religious freedoms only apply to Christianity?

99.99999999%

I should know the answer to that but I'll guess Antonin Scalia.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Watched the whole thing. Wow, just wow.

I'd seen and read some of it before; but the depth of evil and megalomaniacal tendencies of the JW elders is astounding. Convincing people to let their children or themselves die because of the mistranslation of a biblical verse concerning "eating blood"; how they equate that to blood transfusions is beyond me.

That's just as bad as Christian Scientists; don't even get me started on that subject.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
126
This should help.
<chart>

That's a nice chart. I like it, it's colorful, succinct and appears on the outset to be very helpful in determining what you should call yourself.

But I have a problem. A very BIG problem. Not just with the chart, but with myself.

You see I followed that chart and landed on Atheist in short order. But that is wrong. I'm not actually an Atheist at all. So what am I? Maybe there is no label for it yet. The only answer I can come up with as to what I am is human.

Why am I this way? Well to answer that you'd have to know in what way I am. What I think and why. I can give you that information, and it might be helpful to you for me to do so. It might be helpful to me. Who knows?

I have a feeling if I talked about it, the scientists and atheists would dismiss me as religious because much like String or M Theory my thoughts are untestable, at least for now.

I have a feeling that the religious theists would dismiss me because what I think isn't in any religious text I've ever heard of. They think their religion is correct, every other is incorrect, and mine would just fall under other/incorrect to them.

But then I think so what if everyone disagrees with me? I have only a limited time on Earth to make my case, for better or for worse, I enjoy writing about the subject so I might as well.

My question to you is, would such a discussion interest you?
 

ringtail

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2012
1,030
34
91
misguided hopefuls who importune people annoyingly,

sort of like ants or other nasties you spontaneously want to slap away and get OUTTA YER FACE RIGHT NOW!!!!

(hey I''m bending over backwards here to NOT label them "gullible, feeble-minded). Based on the fact some of them are sincere. I think many others are jumping onto that misguided thought-train as a way to satisfy their desperation for ANY social interaction.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Parents decide to let their daughter die instead of allowing a blood transfusion on orders from their JW elders.

Convincing people to let their children or themselves die because of the mistranslation of a biblical verse concerning "eating blood"; how they equate that to blood transfusions is beyond me.

For starters, I don't belong to any Christian sect, but this is just plain slanderous...they don't just "let their children die" -- they demand medical alternatives to blood transfusion...that's not "letting their children die". This is why I initially declined to participate in this thread, because I knew that people would just regurgitate the same old slanderous claims I've been hearing for decades.

Here are some facts. The Bible is VERY clear that God view blood as sacred, and God commands humans not to take in into their bodies, and its many more than "a Biblical verse", so its not at the orders of JW Elders...I'm certain they give Biblical support for their view:

Gen 9:4 - Do not eat the blood.
Leviticus 3:17: You must pour out the blood
1 Sam 14:33 - They sinned by eating meat with the blood

Acts 15:19, 20 - Abstain from blood. (Since this is part of the Christian Greek Scriptures, this is simply a general view of blood passed down by the Governing Body during the first Century for Christians to adhere to)

Duet 12:24 - Pour out the blood as ground water
Leviticus 17:12 - You must not eat the blood

Now, you can argue whether or not this can apply to transfusions, but don't sit here and say they use a "mistranslation of a biblical verse", because they have several verses to back this up. Secondly, God certainly commanded that blood be poured out onto the ground...there is no provision that I've seen that excludes human blood from this mandate.

More importantly, the medical field has moved to more bloodless surgeries for good reasons. Introduction to more facts:

There are a number of benefits of bloodless surgery and blood conservation procedures. Blood conservation is a combination of surgical methods, dietary measures and other advanced techniques aimed at limiting the amount of blood lost during surgery. The universal goal with any blood conservation method is to eliminate the need for a blood transfusion. Opting to go with bloodless surgery instead of a transfusion eliminates the potential risk of illness that comes with a blood transfusion, which includes HIV, hepatitis and more.
https://www.ohiohealth.com/benefitsofbloodconservation/

Also:

Bloodless medicine appeals to many doctors because it carries low risk of post-operative infection when compared with procedures requiring blood transfusion. Additionally, it may be economically beneficial in some countries. For example, the cost of blood in the US hovers around $500 a unit ( Feb 2012 Red Cross charges $700/unit - according to union rep in OH and hospitals' cost is about $1000 to $1500/unit- real cost is usually 5 times these amounts when everything is added in ), including testing.[13] These costs are further increased as, according to Jan Hoffman (an administrator for the blood conservation program at Geisinger Medical Center in Danville, Pennsylvania), hospitals must pick up the tab for the first three units of blood infused per patient per calendar year. By contrast, hospitals may be reimbursed for drugs that boost a patient's red blood cell count, a treatment approach often used before and after surgery to reduce the need for a blood transfusion. However, such payments are highly contingent upon negotiations with insurance companies. Geisinger Medical Center began a blood conservation program in 2005 and reported a recorded savings of $273,000 in its first six months of operation.[14] The Cleveland Clinic lowered their direct costs from $35.5 million in 2009 to $26.4 million in 2012 - a savings of nearly $10 million over 3 years.[15]

Health risks appear to be another contributing factor in their appeal, especially in light of recent studies that suggest that blood transfusions can increase the risk of complications and reduce survival rates.[16][17] Thus the recovery rate is faster with bloodless surgery allowing the patient to leave earlier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodless_surgery#Benefits

So, the medical field has taken a serious look into bloodless surgeries and seen how they can do nothing but HELP -- the JW's actually helped pioneer a safer medical practice.

Now, there is a risk that if a person has lost a life-threatening amount of blood, should a believer disobey what they see as God's commands when their lives are at risk?

I think that's a question for each person to answer.

I'm done with this thread -- just wanted to clear up some things that liars simply don't want you to see.
 
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alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Here are some facts. The Bible is VERY clear that God view blood as sacred, and God commands humans not to take in into their bodies, and its many more than "a Biblical verse", so its not at the orders of JW Elders...I'm certain they give Biblical support for their view:

Gen 9:4 - Do not eat the blood.
Leviticus 3:17: You must pour out the blood
1 Sam 14:33 - They sinned by eating meat with the blood

Acts 15:19, 20 - Abstain from blood. (Since this is part of the Christian Greek Scriptures, this is simply a general view of blood passed down by the Governing Body during the first Century for Christians to adhere to)

Duet 12:24 - Pour out the blood as ground water
Leviticus 17:12 - You must not eat the blood

Now, you can argue whether or not this can apply to transfusions, but don't sit here and say they use a "mistranslation of a biblical verse", because they have several verses to back this up. Secondly, God certainly commanded that blood be poured out onto the ground...there is no provision that I've seen that excludes human blood from this mandate.

Not only struck a nerve but hit one out of the freaking park.

Okay then, it's a mistranslation of several biblical verses. Only in a diseased mind could any of those verses be construed as having to anything to do with blood transfusion (pro-tip: blood transfusions were not a technology nor even a consideration when those verses were written). Blood is circulated through the body to carry oxygen and take away carbon dioxide and other toxins. While it does circulate around and through the mouth, esophageal and digestive systems it is not a "food" item.

I've had several transfusions and I can assure you they were done through my veins. At no point did I drink or eat blood.

Now, there is a risk that if a person has lost a life-threatening amount of blood, should a believer disobey what they see as God's commands when their lives are at risk?

I think that's a question for each person to answer.

I'm done with this thread -- just wanted to clear up some things that liars simply don't want you to see.

And if that person decides to or has decided for them in the case of a minor to have a transfusion it is likely that they will be heavily censured and/or dis-fellowshipped from the cult and shunned by their fellow JW's.

So people who have left JW either on their own or by breaking a dictum of the JW elders are liars?

Only cults such as Mormons, Scientologists and JW's, to name a few, would have a family member(s) ostracize/shun another family member for leaving or being forced to leave the cult.
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Not only struck a nerve but hit one out of the freaking park.

Well, I said I was done with the thread, but I will respond.

No, I'm calling out liars -- (see my thread "Liars in Genesis" in the P&N). If you're deliberately trying to mislead people, I have no issues calling that out if you're a religion or not.

I also find it glaringly suspect that you ignored my posting of evidence that the medical field is moving away from blood transfusions for health reasons, making the JW stand more than just rational, but scientific.

Trust me, I know why you didn't respond. If course, you may post some hogwash that the reasons aren't scientific. I would counter and say that it doesn't really matter as long as the benefits of not transfusing blood are recognized.

I never thought that a Bible-based stance (or mistranslation) would actually be in line with science and medicine in the 20th century.


lol
 
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alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Well, I said I was done with the thread, but I will respond.

No, I'm calling out liars -- (see my thread "Liars in Genesis" in the P&N). If you're deliberately trying to mislead people, I have no issues calling that out if you're a religion or not.

I also find it glaringly suspect that you ignored my posting of evidence that the medical field is moving away from blood transfusions for health reasons, making the JW stand more than just rational, but scientific.

Trust me, I know why you didn't respond. If course, you may post some hogwash that the reasons aren't scientific. I would counter and say that it doesn't really matter as long as the benefits of not transfusing blood are recognized.

I never thought that a Bible-based stance (or mistranslation) would actually be in line with science and medicine in the 20th century.


lol

I chose not to respond until I had done some research on my own.

I have no doubt of the benefits of bloodless surgery and blood conservation techniques. I do however take issue with the viewpoint that the JW/CS cult belief has somehow pioneered or assisted with a new medical/surgical technology. I think it more likely that doctors, whose sworn oath is to protect life, got sick and tired of watching JW/CS patients die needlessly came up with the new techniques and practices.

Would the technique have been researched or attempted had the JW/CS cults not been so ignorant or dogmatic? Debatable.

As far as medical/surgical fields moving away from blood transfusions, bullshit. Are they being included as an option in certain medical/surgical circumstances? Of course.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
I chose not to respond until I had done some research on my own.

I have no doubt of the benefits of bloodless surgery and blood conservation techniques. I do however take issue with the viewpoint that the JW/CS cult belief has somehow pioneered or assisted with a new medical/surgical technology. I think it more likely that doctors, whose sworn oath is to protect life, got sick and tired of watching JW/CS patients die needlessly came up with the new techniques and practices.

Would the technique have been researched or attempted had the JW/CS cults not been so ignorant or dogmatic? Debatable.

As far as medical/surgical fields moving away from blood transfusions, bullshit. Are they being included as an option in certain medical/surgical circumstances? Of course.

Fair enough. All I really personally care about is transmitting accurate information to the objective and uninformed reader, shall any visit the thread -- I think that's the important thing aside from arguing about "cults". At the end of the day, all that should matter is that we found an alternative to forced blood transfusions as the only option.

Thanks for allowing me to do this with your posts, Alzan and disappoint!
 
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alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Fair enough. All I really personally care about is transmitting accurate information to the objective and uninformed reader, shall any visit the thread -- I think that's the important thing aside from arguing about "cults". At the end of the day, all that should matter is that we found an alternative to forced blood transfusions as the only option.

Thanks for allowing me to do this with your posts, Alzan and disappoint!

I care about transmitting accurate information to readers as well: from my stance as a non-theist and disinterested party it is completely accurate to call out JW/CS/Mormons/Scientologists/etc. as cults.

Not really sure what you mean by forced. Speaking only anecdotally my first transfusions were as a newborn baby, I guess you could say my parents forced me to have a transfusion but they had a biased viewpoint and wanted me to have the best chance of living beyond a couple of days.

My second transfusions were just last year, because of another medical condition I had a fatally low hemoglobin count and it was either have the transfusion or die. Silly me, I guess I forced myself to undergo a transfusion.

Blood conservation or bloodless surgery were simply not an option.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
I care about transmitting accurate information to readers as well: from my stance as a non-theist and disinterested party it is completely accurate to call out JW/CS/Mormons/Scientologists/etc. as cults.

Indeed.

Not really sure what you mean by forced.

By having that as the only option. FWIW, I really don't care why we have bloodless surgery...all that really matters to me is that folks now have a rational and valid objection to transfusions -- they can be no longer viewed as fools as they have decades worth of research in their favor.

Blood conservation or bloodless surgery were simply not an option.

Now, it is an option.
 
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