Hrmm...Sound Card Decisions....

[Insane3D]

Another vote for the AE. It replaced my Live 5.1 Platnium and I have been very impressed. It made my Promedia's sound even better..

 

[frustrated2]

I have heard that Hercules makes a nice sound card these days. It has a 4 port usb hub built into it. I don't know a whole lot about it but if they build it like their video cards it will be awesome.

How much does that Acoustic edge card cost?? I have a 5.1 sb live right now and think it sounds alright. I do sort of hate the pop when you turn the power switch on. If the price isn't to bad maybe I will try one of the new acoustic edge cards.

I think that you will be happy with any of the soundcards mentioned maybe just more happy with one over the other. They are all good in their own ways some may have features that are better suited to you. I would like to hear the newer cards and see what is up with them

 

[ToBeMe]

I'll give.....never heard any "hiss" or "pop" on my SBL but hell, why not give AE a chance.........how are they compatability wise though? How much does the AE cost? Where might I purchase one? Like I said, I'm more than pleased with the SBL, but, they are aging and WTF......I've upgraded everything else!

 

[frustrated2]

Thats my point as well I like my sblive to but if these other cards are getting this many compliments then they must be doing something right

Although I have noticed that here at anandtech people tend to like to go against the grain if you will

 

[LickEmSmack]

Well, the old Aureal cards had good sound quality if you ask me. I liked them way better than the Lives. The SB's are too tinny and not full enough for me on the analog outputs. I haven't heard one hooked up to a Dolby Digital receiver on passthrough mode yet tho. That's what I'll be doin. I also want good analog playback tho as well. But, the only problem is that I need to have Linux support as well. I have not found a card that does all these things yet. If someone would write a damn driver for the AE, I would jump. I also can't bring myself to buy an SB because they litigated Aureal into the ground.

 

[Jeff H]

I'm looking for the Philips AE user/experts here. I've followed this thread and the usual A vs. B arguments surface. Nothing new in computer peripheral circles.

Almost universally those that have experienced both the SBLive and AE cards vote for the AE. Every website review I've read says it's heads & tails above the SBLive. I recently won an AE from SoundCardCentral. I was excited to get it in my system (Abit BH6, iP!!!-650, Abit Slotket!!!, Gorb, SBLive MP3+, 256MB PC133 Samsung SDRAM, IBM 75GXP 30.7G, Hercules ProphetII MX retail), and see what it could do, compared to the MP3+.

Well, bottom line is it sounded sh*tty. I also recently took delivery of the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 setup, and I couldn't get the bass tuned down enough to keep the sound from being boomy and harsh. And, the QSurround setting was at best artificial. Now, some are going to say, "Ha, that's just the ProMedia's." Not so, since as soon as I switched out the AE for the SBLive the sound was fantastic. One thing I did notice, comparing the PM 2.1's to my previous speakers (Boston Acoustics MicroMedia 2.1's) was that both the bass & treble controls in the SBLive mixer, and Winamp's equalizer needed to be much more flat than for the MicroMedia's. Once I figured out that, all was well w/ the ProMedia's.

So, can anyone offer any suggestions/ideas/wag's as to why my experience w/ the AE is so bad? Did I miss something in the setup? I'm wide open to suggestions, as all these glowing AE reviews can be that far off the mark, or can they <vbg>!

 

[OZZIE2]

divinemartyr: Come who are you trying to kid? Several other people who own a SBlive on this thread alone have never heard this mysterious &quot;Hiss&quot; you speak of!! Lets see some proof of this &quot;known issue&quot; you speak of.
Proof is in the pudding and if several users even on this small thread think youv'e got your hand on it then I rest my case. Never ever heard a POP or a HISS with my setup ... it's bad speakers that is the key.
&quot;Speakers CANNOT and WILL NOT create ANY hiss if they aren't hooked up to a source! &quot; DUH!!!
It's the AMP and the sh!tty Xover network degrading the signal from the source that causes the HISS. I'm no expert so please can we hear from one here and if I'm wrong then lets here it from someone who can prove that I'm wrong not dohey divine..
A small amplifier is in the Sub casing along with a Xover network and this is where the signal degradation comes from if they are crap. There is no AMP on your sound card at least not a big enough one to power a Sub and sattelites. :frown:
I'm not saying those other sound cards are bad in fact they may actually better as he says but how can you take his opinoin to be credible when he obviously doesn't have a clue! I rest my case!

 

[Conroy9]

another vote for the sblive - i've had the acoustic edge for a week
maybe under win98 it's really good, but my experience (Windows 2000) has been awful
it is unstable, sounds are tinny and i can hear a lot of interference in my computer
and my mic doesn't work

it might be much better in win98 does anybody who uses win98 want to buy my AE?

Although I have noticed that here at anandtech people tend to like to go against the grain if you will
i seem to see this a lot too.

 

[Moz]

I second that, the AA wasn't great in my Win2k box, replaced it with a SB Live! MP3+ and haven't looked back. Not to say the AA isn't a great card, just didn't perform as well under 2k.

 

[hifimaster]

Another Sblive 5.1 vote.

 

[JorgeElPrimero]

I am here to recommend the SB Live. I had the Acoustic Edge with Klipsch 4.1 Surround speakers and was generally unhappy with both. So on my new PC I bought the SB Live Platinum 5.1 and the 3500DTT 5.1 Digital Theater from Cambridge and I am MUCH happier with my new system for the home theater aspect. In gaming they are about even but with DVD playback and music I won't stray from Creative again!

 

[Wingznut]

Ozzie, I used to have a SBLive! and I can vouch for the HISS and the POP. But that's not why I ditched the SBLive!. I thought those issues were with the speakers. I ditched the SBLive! because of it's crappy gaming sound, and horrible positional audio.

But, when I did get another sound card, the HISS and POP went away.

 

[Noriaki]

<< Hiss??? What hiss? This certainly has something to do with SN ratio of your speaker setup not the sound card .... You don't get hiss from good speakers even with a cheap sound card. >>

Yes it has to do with the SN ratio of the speakers, but if you don't think the sound card has anything to do with it then you are out to lunch...no offense in intended, but a soundcard has an SN ratio as well. The amplifier/source can cause hiss just as eaily as poor speakers. If you want hiss-free you need high qualiyt across the board. You DO get hiss from good speakers with a poor sound card.



<< get your facts straight first!!! >>

I think you should take your own advice.

Now that said, I honestly didn't notice much hiss in my SBLive! until I had heard an AE. The difference is absurd. It's like comapaing BA4800s to FPS2000. It's just a joke.

If you want the hiss, turn the volume all the way up in the mixer (master and the specific) then go play an mp3 or a movie or something with a silent spot in it. My friend with an AE did this, and it was dead silent.


Now all that said, I own an SBlive! and am quite happy with it, it suits my needs very well. But the sound quality on an A. Edge is much cleaner. If you have crappy speakers it won't matter. But if you have good speakers you should have a good soundcard driving them, for optimal sound quality.

I am personally quite happy with the quality my SBLive outputs, but if you are specifically going for a home entertainment PC I wouldn't use an SBLive on it.

I can't comment on the S.Cruz, I've never used one. Only the A.Edge.

 

[Insane3D]

The Acoustic Edge works great in Win2K. I am not sure about the people that said it didn't work well in Win2K...there has been two driver updates that have improved upon the original shipping drivers, but even those worked great. To my knowledge there is no known issues with the AE and Win2K..

 

[Conroy9]

insane3d: http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/ubb/Forum18/HTML/000020.html

it's not just me

 

[Insane3D]

Well, I am not sure about those issues, but it sounds isolated to a degree. Have you tried the latest drivers? I use Winamp and have none of the problems you mentioned. Not only that, my FSB is at 150mhz, so if it was a sensitive PCI bus, I would certainly have problems. It may be that something else in your system conflicts with the AE. Sorry, but this is not a widespread problem. Also, I play several Direct X games with no problems.

 

[confounded]

I've never seen the Live Drive sold separately, but I don't really know. What I do know is that the Live Drive is a very nice tool. The more you want to do with sound and your computer, the more powerful the SB Live 5.1 becomes. It costs more and it does more. I love the remote feature and all the front side connectivity. Great product worth every penny I paid for it!

 

[Pariah]

I picked up a Santa Cruz yesterday to see what all the fuss was about. I don't know where to locally pick up an Acoustic Edge so I didn't get one. I'll run through the strengths first so people don't accuse me of being bias. All testing was done in win2k as that is the only OS I use.

At $70, this card was considerably cheaper than the Live!, so if you are on a budget, your choice is already made up. Audio does sound better than the Live 5.1 Platinum when using a set of headphones. Does it blow away the Live? Absolutely not. Don't believe the hype. The differences are subtle. The Cruz's sound is sharper and more in your face, while the Live is a bit smoother/muffled depending on your point of view. The cruz has a really nice hardware 10 band equalizer, this is probably my favorite feature. It allows much easier sound adjustments than the Live. The output options are easily manageable and customizable in the control panel and quite full featured.

Now for the problems. First off, when you open the box, you see right away how TB can sell this card for so cheap. All that's in the box is the card, a 4 pin CDROM cable, a driver CD, and some stripped down audio program I've never heard of. This compared to the SBLive Platinum which comes with basically every cable you will need, and a software bundle that is second to none by a long shot. The CD that came with my Cruz card didn't have win2k drivers at all on it. Trying to run the setup gave me a wrong OS error message. I had to go to Turtle Beach's site to get win2k drivers. Using the digital coax connection to my receiver, there was no descernible difference at all using my speakers. Turning the volume knob all the way up revealed no hiss at all from either card. The lack of an optical connector for me is a pain, because my receiver has multiple TOS connectors, but only one coax which is occupied by my digital cable receiver. I found all the effects that can be added to outgoing sound (EAX equivalents) sounded like ass to put it bluntly compared to the Live. Not that I ever used them on the Live, so not much of an issue to me. The 3d stereo enhancement was so horrendous, I don't know why they even include it. I could not get dolby digital audio for DVD's to work in any form whatsoever with this card. So if you want to watch movies in win2k, you're not getting DD. I've gotten used to the convenience of the front mounted connectors for the Live, I had forgotten how much I hate digging behind my case to feel for the right connector like I have to do for the Cruz. One oddity I have found with the Cruz is that using Winamp mp3's play magnitudes louder than any other audio source. I don't know what causes this, but it is rather annoying to have to adjust volume levels whenever I play mp3's and then stop playing them.

Am I keeping the Cruz based on its strengths and weeknesses? Yes, but only because I have a second system to put my Live in, otherwise I would have returned it. I mainly use headphones on my primary system, and the Cruz sounds better that way. The lack of an optical connector is not a problem, since I can use the Live for that purpose in the second system and it will sound just as good as the Cruz. I've also moved my DVDROM drive to my second system, which is where I wanted it to begin with, so the DD problem isn't relevant either, though I don't actually ever use my computer for watching DVD's except under odd conditions.

If you already own a Live! 5.1, I wouldn't recommend changing cards. The audio differences aren't significant enough and your live is far more flexible. If you don't own a Live, the choice is not so one sided. The significant price difference has to factor in if you are not interested in the Live's software bundle or additional cables. Based on a features list, you can compares those yourself and decide which fits your needs better.

 

[Insane3D]

Pariah:

Good post. I agree the Live's software bundle can't be beat. I also agree the Live is not terrible, but it is not perfect either. I have listened to both the Live, Live 5.1, and the AE, and the AE's sound quality is much better. However, the sound quality difference I noticed was alot better, but I am using some high quality speakers. Most multimedia speakers may not really highlight the sound quality difference as much as others. I do a lot of digital music editing and creation, and sound quality is most important to me. If I can get a card that has great sound quality and very little software or a card with ok sound qaulity and tons of software, I will always choose the card with the best sound. The one thing I disagree on is your suggestion that if you already have a Live 5.1, don't bother upgrading. You have only compared the Santa Cruz and the Live, without comparing the AE also. If you have never heard the AE how can you suggest not upgrading to it? I have never used the Santa Cruz, so I will not comment on it. Just a thought.

 

[Wingznut]

Very good write-up, pariah. However, you didn't mention any gaming comparisons.

Other than poor 3D positional audio (and overexagerrated EAX) in gaming, the SBLive is not a bad card at all. And unless gaming is real important, I too wouldn't suggest that a Live! owner necessarily change their sound card.

That being said... If somebody is in need of a sound card upgrade, I don't really see why the Live! would be considered the best choice.

 

[Pariah]

Insane3D, my recommendation to not upgrade your live, is only if you are looking at the Cruz. Since I don't have an Acoustic Edge, I obviously can't compare it to the Live. As for your comment on the AE sounding much better than the Live, I'll quote soundsurge one more time from their AE review:

&quot;The difference in sound quality in all the second-generation cards when used with typical multimedia speakers is in most cases negligible. In case of the Acoustic Edge we have found high frequency roll-off to be a bit behind the Sonic Fury/Santa Cruz but on par or better than most other PCI cards including the Live 5.1 cards. The difference compared to the Santa Cruz is small enough that it shouldn?t be noticeable on your typical multimedia speaker system signal to noise ratio and high-end will be more limited than the sound card. Even if you have a speaker system with good high frequency response (e.g. Klipsch? ProMedia, VideoLogic?s Sirocco Crossfire) we don't think you will notice the slight difference in high frequency roll off as it does not come until after 18 kHz&quot;

Based on this paragraph, and the bold text in particular, I doubt the AE really does sound that much better than the Live. Especially considering they are saying the Santa Cruz actually sounds a tad better than the AE and I don't think the Cruz sounds that much dramatically better than the Live.

&quot;but I am using some high quality speakers&quot;

The 6 speaker set hooked up to my receiver cost me over $3000. In other words, I'm not exactly using the Cambridge FPS2000 as my reference.

&quot;I do a lot of digital music editing and creation, and sound quality is most important to me.&quot;

Which I assure you, you won't be doing with the software bundled with the Cruz. The Live's software package is far more suited for this, and actually swings the price advantage into the Live's favor when additional software costs are factored in.

&quot;Very good write-up, pariah. However, you didn't mention any gaming comparisons.&quot;

The game genres I play (RTS/role playing) aren't big on 3d audio so someone else would be more suited to review this aspect, rather than me installing Quake3 or something.

 

[Noriaki]

Oh yeah that's one thing....if you use a Digital (or Optical) connection for your speakers your soundcard should make no difference at all, it's only if you use the onboard soundcard DACs.

And if you like the live drive so much you should check out the Hercules Game Theatre XP

That's a sweet ass breakout box

 

[Pariah]

If you shelled out $150-200 for a SBLive 5.1 Platinum. Any replacement costing $150 better have significantly better sound quality and better features. The XP breakout box requires desk space which I don't have to spare. If you are using connectors on the front and back of it, you will be using a pretty decent amount of desk space. If you look at it, you will see that the majority of the connectors are on the back of the box, which to some degree nullifies its increased ease of use. The 4 port hub isn't powered, which limits its usefulness as well.

 

[Insane3D]

Pariah:

I consider 3DSS to be one of the better computer audio sites, and I refer to them alot because of their great, in-depth reviews. That being said, I will never take the word of a reviewer...any reviewer over actual experience with a product. One thing is being forgotten here...the QMSS algorithyms. The SB Live copies the signal for the front speakers to the rears where the AE actually sends a distinctive signal to each channel. I just know that with my particular setup, the AE made my Promedia's sound much better in gaming, music, and especially DVD's. Also, I can quote from the Neoseeker review of the AE for this...

&quot;Though 5.1 speakers are the new buzzword, let?s not forget the huge installed user base of multimedia users who are running their favourite 4.1 speakers. Considering also that perhaps the hottest system being sold right now is the Klipsch ProMedia 4.1 system, it is definitely a GOOD thing that the Acoustic Edge?s QMSS support for 4 speakers is nothing short of phenomenal. We did some listening tests with both the famed Klipsch ProMedia and a Boston Acoustics BA4800s, each a very worthy match for the sound card. The results were amazing.
With either of the speakers it was clearly obvious that the Acoustic Edge could handle stereo to quad speaker transformations with a finesse that is surprisingly natural. The few flaws that were present in a 5.1 system were still present, but the clarity of the Klipsch speakers in particular really hit us and really affected our experience with the discrete 4 channel sound. The dimension of the sound was breathtaking, and many MANY songs became instantly transformed. We were pleasantly surprised by the accuracy, or at least the supposed accuracy with which the QMSS algorithms were able to pluck out specific choral elements of the songs and place them into the rear channels for a more seemless surround experience.&quot;

As far as the Santa Cruz, like I said before, I have never used one, so I never comment on it.


You also mention you are using $3000 speakers hooked up to your reciever which is hooked up to your SB Live. Well, I would think the biggest affect on sound quality would be your reciever. A multimedia set like the Promedia's is getting it's signal directly from the sound card..not a signal that has been passed through a high quality reciever.

 

[Pariah]

&quot;The SB Live copies the signal for the front speakers to the rears where the AE actually sends a distinctive signal to each channel.&quot;

I'm a big anti-fan of processed music. I've listened to quite a few receivers that create virtual channels, and supposed surround sound from stereo sources and I have yet to listen to one that sounded even remotely improved over simple channel duplication. Music is not a surround sound entity. If you go to a concert, everything is in front of you, you don't have a guitarist behind you, the drummer to the side, etc... I find processed surround sound music to sound unnatural. I like the effect of having music coming from all directions, but I want the same music to be coming from all directions, save for the stereo pans which is a natural directional effect, as the music sounds fuller to me that way. If the AE does it well, I would really like to hear it, but considering I'm not a fan of the concept, I don't see it happening.

&quot;not a signal that has been passed through a high quality reciever.&quot;

My receiver has analog direct. I'll due some testing on this and post the results here tomorrow.