HTPC Setup and Home DVR Setup

[Stokes]

I already have what I believe to be a capable main htpc server.

I am having a few issues and struggling to figure it out.

First, I'm on CanonPC waitlist (8/11) for Ceton's tuner.

Here is how I want to set things up:

Basement: Epson Home Cinema 8500UB, mounted in the ceiling, on a 90" (about) white screen. I figured I would get a DVI to HDMI connector for the video feed.

Then using a surround sound card (dont have it), I would connect the feeds to a AV receiver for the sound.

Now, I also have a Xbox 360 I want to use in the basement setup, I'm thinking it's just a matter of using the receiver to get the video and sound feed, but not exactly clear here.

Here is where It gets tricky, especially with the uncertainty of shipping date of Ceton. I want the ability to at least record premium HD channels, the majority of my recordings I want to be HD. Also, I want to share these recordings with some sort of media extender for the living room, but that also can just watch live tv seperately (not sure how to accomplish this).

I'm guessing as I want to do this setup in October I'm going to just have to get a set-top-box or something and maybe an HD-PVR to record things to the htpc?

As you can tell from all of this I'm a little lost. I've been trying to read everything and anything and not sure of the solution.

 

[velillen]

It might be beneficial to also post this to the avsforums htpc area as well. Ill toss out what i can help with but some i just dont know. mainly on the Ceton tuners.

it basically sounds like you want to run everything into the receiver (xbox, htpc wise) then have it out put to the projector for the basement. Thats actually easy. Just use an HDMI cable to hook up the xbox to the receiver and you can get video and audio through that. For the HTPC you can get a newer video card that has hdmi audio pass through. Then you just need one hdmi cable and you can pass through all the HD audio. Then just go from the receiver to the projector/speakers via hdmi (video) and speaker wire for audio. That takes care of the basement. Basically its just hook up to receiver and use the receivers built in hdmi switching so you can just have one output to the projector. Also if you dont want a new video card see if your motherboard has spidf output. That can get you 5.1 dts audio (i think on the 5.1 dts)

That reminds me you didnt mention a receiver. Got one or purchasing one?

Nows where my knowledge dwindles. For sharing the recorded shows that should be easy. Just need to set up that download folder to be shared on your network. Then have the media extender (whatever you choose) set up to see that folder. Then you should be able to get the recorded shows that way (and any other show you put in there).

The live tv from htpc to living room is kind of unknown to me. (since HTPC is hooked up in basement to the receiver) So someone else can help here Maybe some sort of hdmi switch so the htpc is hooked up to both via the switch?

 

[Stokes]

I don't have a sound system picked out yet. That is one area that is unknown to me.

Suggestions?

And I already did put one in avs. My biggest area of concern is the cable part of the setup. And if I have an alternative to the Ceton before I get one. There are people who have ordered in May that still haven't gotten it, so I don't believe I'm anywhere near getting one.

 

[s44]

If the X360 works as an extender (and it should, even for live tv), you don't need the HTPC hooked up to the receiver or projector at all. Unless you're going for stuff like Blu-Ray, which should really be on a separate device.

The audio is at least as important as the video for home theater. How big is the room? How limited is your budget?

 

[Stokes]

The room is just under 500 sq ft. The main section of the room is 22' x 22'. What do you recommend. Usage wise for this setup will be a good mix of gaming, movies, and live tv. With gaming taking the back door to the other two.

Also what about alternatives to Ceton? Does it make sense to do something like a clearQAM tuner in the system + HD-PVR attached to a STB to cover the rest?

 

[s44]

For movie/TV use, the most important thing is a subwoofer. You'll also need a receiver with a decent amount of power and fairly efficient speakers (how far away is the back seating going to be from the front speakers?). Fortunately, because it's a big dedicated room, you won't need to worry about getting tiny little boxes that blend in. (That makes speakers/subs way more expensive.)

Minimum reasonable budget: ~$500 for each of the sub, AVR, and (combined) speakers.

For the sub I'd suggest the Elemental Designs A2-300 ($415 shipped), although they're custom made and you may run into Ceton-level delays, the SVS PB10 ($500 plus shipping), or the Epik Legend ($500 plus shipping), a fantastic-looking design that again you may have to wait for because it's not quite out yet.

For the AVR I'd get the refurb Onkyo RC180, $400 plus shipping from A4Less. ~105 real watts to 5 channels simultaneously, good Audyssey, and pre-outs in case you want even more power (you can easily hook up a separate amplifier).

For speakers you want decent sensitivity (90db or better) and power handling so you can play movies clearly back at near reference level. Cheapest suggestion: 5 of the Infinity P162, $85 each (shipped) at Crutchfield. Of course, you'll also need stands or something... With the Newegg sale, you could also get 5 of the Polk Monitor II 50 floorstanders for about $100 each. (5 identical speakers are best, but if the bottom of your screen doesn't leave room for a floorstander, you replace the center with a dedicated center speaker.)

That's assuming you're budget-restricted, though. The sub will show big gains up to $1000 (and beyond, if you're a bass nut), the AVR to a bit less than that -- but you could also add a separate amp -- and speakers... Well, paying more than the cost of these is probably silly for HT, but you can go as high as you want.

Upgrade paths from the above suggestions: 3-channel standalone amp for the front speakers for more power. Or a pair of nice new L and R speakers (or L, C, and R together), then move the current fronts to rears for 7.1. Or a second one of your subwoofer for more bass.

 

[Binky]

You dont need any extra sound card in the HTPC. You just need a video card that can pipe the sound through the HDMI. Any of the ATI cards from 3450 and up can do this easily. Run the HDMI from the ATI card to the receiver, then the receiver output goes to the video device (projector, TV). You're done.

The latest 5000 series ATI Card have a slight advantage for sound. Something like this would be perfect (i'm a strong believer in rear exhaust cards):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814161319

For the cable tuner questions, just wait for the HD stuff to come out. All of the ClearQAM stuff is annoying to setup and use. It's a half-assed solution.

 

[electroju]

AMD graphics or ATI graphics just sucks because of bad software. Spend the money on nVidia graphics because the software is excellent. Using a separate cable for audio is easy.

People are are cheap for the size of the room. If you want a good subwoofer that size of the room,. commercial subwoofers from Polk, Infinity, and others does not work well. A DIY always works better than any commercial subwoofer. You will have to go bigger than Elemental Designs A2-300. This subwoofer is meant for up to medium size rooms or rooms about half the size. For your size of room, Elemental Designs A5-350 is better. You will still have to go with two to handle your room size. Subwoofers are all about moving air and moving a lot of it, so two Elemental Designs A5-350 should be just enough to handle your room. Other good subwoofer brands is Hsu, Epik, and Rymthik Audio. Rymthik Audio suits more the DIY community. Elemental Designs, Hsu, Epik and Rymthik Audio are commercial but they have the same pride as the DIY, so you get a subwoofer and not just the brand.

When picking speakers for full-range, the DIY route is not the best route. The best way for full-range speakers is commercial speakers. You do not need to go for floor stand speakers for even that size of room. It can help, but the height where the speakers position may not be the best spot when your sitting down on couch or recliner. Bookshelf or monitor speakers good option because it gives you more control on the height. Bookshelf speakers have a problem with bass, so you have to use a subwoofer. Two Epik Legend subwoofers could be used and speaker stands. Good full-range speaker brands are Polk, Infinity, PSB, Boston Acoustics. Bose OK if you select the 301 series bookshelf speakers, but stay away from their cube speakers. Mirage speakers are good for surrounds. Crutchfeild.com has some good videos about speakers and placement.

My rule of thumb for an audio system for a home theater setup is the speaker system should be at least twice the cost of your TV. The benefits of a good audio is a lot better than the best looking TV or display.

For any AV receivers or surround sound preamplifiers, be careful buying from none authorized dealers. Some AV receivers or surround sound preamplifiers require that you buy from authorized dealers for their warranty be valid. IMHO, refurbished or used may not always be a good deal, so you get what you paid for.

Using a HTPC to watch TV is OK, but there are long delays to change channels. It is because of the cards that HTPC users buy are PVR cards. The delay could be up to 2 minutes. To watch TV on a HTPC, a raw video capture card like the following is the best way for minimal delays. CableCard on a PC is not easy. Company like Ceton could rave about it, but the software will really what matters. I am not sure how the software is from Ceton, so it is best to go stand-alone units for this. For CableCards, Moxi could be a better alternative because it is an integrated system. CableCard route is only good for digital cable or channels that are encrypted. Though not all CableCard cards are compatible with all devices that accept CableCard, so ask your cable provider before going the CableCard route. The following is a review of Moxi.

http://revision3.com/hdnation/cartoons

The route I took is using a digital cable box from the cable company and then use the computer as the PVR. I have to change the channel or set the schedule of the cable box before my PVR or my computer set as a PVR to record or it will record it wrong. This method does not deal with the CableCard mess like being at the mercy of your cable provider when they rent out a CableCard to you that is an old model. I recently replace my cable box with my cable provider and they still handed over the same model that was built in 2000. I think my route is the best because my cable provider will probably give me a very old CableCard as well.

IMHO, HTPC is the worst option for watching movies. Also HTPC are becoming obsolete because there devices out there than do PVR, file server, and access content on the web, so making a HTPC is not good route because there are better options. avsforum is OK if you can get through their thick headed opinions and moral story of misery loves company. The only times you should make a computer for a home theater is when you want to browse the web or watch videos that you have stored on your computers.

 

[bearxor]

I disagree. The only time you should make a computer for a htpc is when you want a shit load of tuners. Where else can I get a DVR that will do 4 different streams simultaneously?

OP, welcome to my world . Any reason for an Epson 8500 over a 8100? I have an 8100 and love it. It works great for my room. Pick up a Radeon HD 5570 for bit streaming audio over HDMI. If you want a decent entry level HTIB, try a Onkyo HT-S5300. Decent front and center speakers and a nice powered subwoofer. The HTIB can be had for about $350 and is a 7.1ch setup that supports DTS-MA.

You can use a Xbox 360 in the living room as an extender but if it's not an option, you could go with a SFF computer with a USB TV tuner. You wouldn't be able to record or watch live premium channels, but you would be able to use recorded tv mapping to map all of your recordings to the living room tv. Honestly though, an X360 extender is the best way to go if you're only interested in TV. It wouldn't work well for streaming videos though.

Before you get the Ceton, you could roll a couple of dual-tuner QAM cards for some basic HD. Then, when you get the Ceton, you could pop it in and have 8 ClearQAM tuners if you don't decide to do a cable card. Never have a tuner conflict again!

 

[Binky]

@electroju

WTF are you talking about? Two minutes to change channels? AMD sucks for HTPCs? Really, this is not only untrue, its bordering on total BS.

 

[s44]

@electroju

WTF are you talking about?

Um, yeah. Have you ever read any of his other posts?

 

[bearxor]

Oh yeah... Do not, under any circumstances, build your own screen.

I don't care what people say in forums about how easy it is. Don't do it. Either buy a static framed screen or paint the wall. If you do paint the wall, make sure you frame a border. For some reason, not having a border on the screen makes it really weird. And use velvet for the border instead of felt. Velvet absorbs light better.

Don't fret over some oversplash on your projector display. It happens.

And buy a big mount meant for that big epson projector. I cheeped out with a mono price mount and because the epson projector is so front heavy and all of the mono price mounts have the center of gravity in the middle, it took FOREVER to mount properly. Hell, I still don't think it's mounted properly.

 

[bearxor]

@electroju

WTF are you talking about? Two minutes to change channels? AMD sucks for HTPCs? Really, this is not only untrue, its bordering on total BS.

Honestly, the only reason I have an AMD card in my setup now is because of bit streaming audio. If nVidia bumped up the audio capabilities of it's discreete cards, I'd choose nVidia over AMD any day of the week.

I have an Opteron 165 in my htpc so I really rely on video card acceleration of HD video since my CPU is so weak. I have plenty of videos (that I downloaded from some keyboard driver sites *wink wink*) that I can not watch on my system now with the 5570 or the previous 4370 that the GF8500 I had for two years plays fine. I had to go HDMI so I had to drop the 8500. The nVidia HDMI support still sucks apparently.

 

[BornStar]

I've never experienced channel changes anywhere close to 2 minutes on any of my tuner cards and the general consensus is the Ceton card will tune a new channel in under 5 seconds which my experience backs up. There is no bundled software from Ceton which means you have to use 7MC. Also, it's not currently possible to use the Ceton card as a QAM tuner prior to setting it up as a CableCARD tuner which sort of defeats the purpose of having it capable of QAM at any point. As to getting a really old CableCARD from your content provider, who cares? It's just a smart card that plugs into the tuner. The tuner does all of the work. If you have a pretty large cable company the Ceton tuner won't be a problem at all. Comcast rolled a truck to my house, the techs and I sat around while the tuner was paired with the card, and I was watching HDTV on my HTPC in under 30 minutes.

 

[bearxor]

I don't have a ceton, so I don't have any experience. But I have 2 HVR-2250's and an ATi DCT. When I downgraded my cable service this year and pulled my cablecard out, my DCT still functions as a ClearQAM tuner even though MCE sets it up as a CableCard tuner. I can record 5 QAM stream simultaneously on my system with no hacks or anything.

I would figure the Ceton would work the same way since the core cablecard setup doesn't differ between different cablecard tuners.

 

[Stokes]

Thanks for all the advice. You guys really covered the audio part of the setup and it's an area that I have neglected in the past, but I'm putting more resources toward it in this build.

The ceiling in the room I believe is barely 9' or so. I was kind of wanting to ceiling mount the speakers, but that may be impossible with the height and based on what you guys say with the positioning, may be a bad idea.

Depending on the latest news from Ceton on their shipment, I'll wait to on any alternative cards. But do you guys think trying to find an ATI DCT is worthwhile if I can't get ahold of ceton soon?

I live in Iowa, and I'm going to be getting service from Mediacom. Is there any place that lists information about my area and how they handle copy rights on channels?

 

[Stokes]

I actually didn't know much about projectors until I read some reviews. And I choose the 8500UB since it was kind of in the price range I was thinking, and the reviews on the thing are for the most part outstanding.

Oh ya, anyone have any retailer/product advice for a screen? I'm thinking right around 90" (reviews state not to go past 110" with it). They also suggested a 1.3 gain. However, when I look, some places don't even list that fact.

 

[s44]

I was kind of wanting to ceiling mount the speakers

Yeah, don't do that. It's basically a sonic nightmare.

 

[Stokes]

Yeah, don't do that. It's basically a sonic nightmare.

How do you get past this with say a large couch? Just put tables in the back/edges and put the speakers there? Think I watched a tutorial video that stated all speakers should be at a 30 degree angle from the seating area. So if the TV was 0 degrees, the right front is 30 degrees, both sides of the tv, and equal behind you. Hope that makes sense.

 

[s44]

Well, if you get the Polks they'll all be floorstanders. If you get bookshelves all speakers should be on stands (or wall-mounted). The idea is to get the tweeters at your seated ear level, with some allowances for the center having to be below the screen. The speakers should all be about the same distance from the central seating position, so the surrounds would go several feet from the end of the couch.

Dolby layout guide
DTS layout guide (specific 5.1 pic)

edit: note that Audyssey is designed to correct electronically for imperfections in the room, layout, etc. but it's still best to start with the best physical setup your space allows.

 

[bearxor]

I actually didn't know much about projectors until I read some reviews. And I choose the 8500UB since it was kind of in the price range I was thinking, and the reviews on the thing are for the most part outstanding.

Oh ya, anyone have any retailer/product advice for a screen? I'm thinking right around 90" (reviews state not to go past 110" with it). They also suggested a 1.3 gain. However, when I look, some places don't even list that fact.

I have the 8100 @ a 100" screen roughly 12ft away and it looks great. It might be worth checking out some reviews of the 8100 if the ~$500 price difference matters to you.

Since it is a basement with a (I assume) permanent mounting of the projector, have you thought about painting the wall instead of buying a screen? Would be considerably cheaper.

 

[Stokes]

I'm not sure yet which wall it will go on just yet. The wall i'm considering has 3 high small basement windows that stretch the length of the wall. I was considering putting up the screen over the middle window slot, the other windows have good shades, but I may have some sort of curtains built. I thought putting it there would allow for a tad natural light to leak in and it wouldn't be directly on the projection screen. Not sure yet. Also the doorway would be somewhat in sight and the other way you have your back to the entrance so axe murderers can sneak and and get you right in middle of watching your favorite bond movie.

So I still need to look at screen ideas. The review I read suggests a brand Carada, and that is in the $700 price range.

Also I did more research on the comparison:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/1080p-projector/8100_vs_8500ub.php

With my ability to really control the light, I think I'll go with the 8500ub for it's movie performance.

 

[Binky]

ATI cable card tuners are end of life and they never had a great reputation anyway (probably more cable companies fault). I've never run one myself, but you can read about them on AVS forums or media center sites like GreenButton or australian media center forums. Personally, I'd just grab a cheap tuner for off-air (if possible in your area) or setup clearQAM if I had no other choice, and live with that for a while.

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/
http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/

Avermedia and Hauppage both make decent PCIe dual tuners for about $100 or less. The HDhomerun is excellent at $100-$130. Any bundled remotes or software are 99% guaranteed to be trash.

 

[Stokes]

Can someone explain projector placement and distance from
Screen based on screen size? I know the 8500ub has around 2.1 zoom. So if I have a 96" screen does the projector have to be 16 feet back? I did some ceiling measurements and I have a part where the ceiling lowers about 12 feet back. How does this change my plans?

 

[Binky]

I think you'd have better lluck with that question here:

AVS forum - Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=14&f=68