Huang Primes NV40 Hype Machine

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Secondly, on the Nvidia cheating fiascos: obviously someone out there had to notice all the cheats Nvidia put in their drivers or they never would have come out.

You know how it worked? Somebody tried something in the developer version of the software. The Fanbois jumped on and within weeks all we got were comparision shots at 600x zoom proving Nvidia cheats even more than they already did. It was like lynchmob trying to find anything and everything they could wrong with every single shot. It was probably the saddest display I have seen yet from the reviewer community.

Finally someone said it

 

[First]

Originally posted by: Pete

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
NV40, optimizing to the n power.

A more cryptic comment I couldn't imagine. Evan, care to elaborate?

Haha, it's nothing more than a jab at NVIDIA. I have no clue at the moment how NV40 performs, we (and maybe NVIDIA too) don't have silicon yet.

 

[Acanthus]

heres a quote

"ATi, it will be fixed in the next catalyst."

 

[First]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
"ATi, it will be fixed in the next catalyst."

:Q

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Acanthus
"ATi, it will be fixed in the next catalyst."

:Q

:beer:

I really hope the horizons issue gets fixed soon i wanna make my gf play it with me but she has a 9700.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Acanthus
"ATi, it will be fixed in the next catalyst."

:Q

:beer:

I really hope the horizons issue gets fixed soon i wanna make my gf play it with me but she has a 9700.

Why do you need a video card and horizons to get your girlfriend to play with you? I would think it would be much more fun without horizons and a video card.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Genx87
Secondly, on the Nvidia cheating fiascos: obviously someone out there had to notice all the cheats Nvidia put in their drivers or they never would have come out.

You know how it worked? Somebody tried something in the developer version of the software. The Fanbois jumped on and within weeks all we got were comparision shots at 600x zoom proving Nvidia cheats even more than they already did. It was like lynchmob trying to find anything and everything they could wrong with every single shot. It was probably the saddest display I have seen yet from the reviewer community.

Finally someone said it

Agreed. People are like "There are 7 pixels missing from this frame". Great. Are you going to notice at 80 FPS? No. Does it matter? Again, No. Yes, ATi's cards perform better right now. Are Nvidia's cards useless? Not by a long long long long long shot. "Not best" is not synonymous with "shit".

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Genx87
Secondly, on the Nvidia cheating fiascos: obviously someone out there had to notice all the cheats Nvidia put in their drivers or they never would have come out.

You know how it worked? Somebody tried something in the developer version of the software. The Fanbois jumped on and within weeks all we got were comparision shots at 600x zoom proving Nvidia cheats even more than they already did. It was like lynchmob trying to find anything and everything they could wrong with every single shot. It was probably the saddest display I have seen yet from the reviewer community.

Finally someone said it

Agreed. People are like "There are 7 pixels missing from this frame". Great. Are you going to notice at 80 FPS? No. Does it matter? Again, No. Yes, ATi's cards perform better right now. Are Nvidia's cards useless? Not by a long long long long long shot. "Not best" is not synonymous with "shit".

bingo.

 

[Genx87]

If the only way you can "refute" my statements is to take everything I say and blow it way the hell out of proportion then there's no point in continuing this.

Just where did I blow anything you said out of proporation?

The facts speak for themselves. Nvidia has been caught cheating repeatedly. Who cares how they were caught? Nvidia has (and continues) to lower image quality behind the scenes (hopefully without the user's knowledge) to gain speed in popular benchmarks (real and synthetic).

If it is "behind" the scenes who cares? "Behind" indicates to me it is nothing you would notice anyways.


Can you honestly say they haven't done that? I don't care if the IQ loss is only apparent to 1% of the population, IT'S STILL CHEATING!

Only possibly in 3dmark03 with shader replacements. Ironically the shader cheats are gone and performance is up. So could the original claims about cheats really have been a bug? You getting where my "lynchmob" label is coming from? And if we are going to start labeling every single rendering problem a cheat then both parties are guilty as sin. And if we start labeling every rendering issue a problem what happens when the application doesnt even work? Are we going to say because the application wont work the IHV obviously hacked together something so bad it wont even run?


Oh, and if you think 3dmark03 is the only app in which Nvidia has been caught cheating I suggest you do your homework a little more thoroughly Aquamark ring a bell? Whole shaders removed from scenes you say? If you don't notice a large area of the screen being rendered improperly, then you're either not paying attention or you've just become used to Nvidia's lowered IQ compared to say ATI or Matrox.

And exactly what version of the drivers was this problem noticed on?

We're not talking about replacement shaders here, we're talking about the complete lack thereof. Clip planes, removed shaders, lowered filtering quality, application detection for the purpose of "optimization", how is that not cheating?

Lets see after the final release of the drivers all those problem magically disappeared. You dont happen to think these were legitmate bugs with a beta version of the drivers do you?

Think what you like about Nvidia. It's quite obvious to everyone but Nvidiots that Nvidia has cheated and continues to do so. This is not to say that ATI has never cheated, but at least they admitted to it and corrected the mistakes. Nvidia just tried to brush everything under the carpet and bury their cheats a little deeper in their drivers.


Are you going to take your toys home with you as well? Look the whole cheating thing has never really been proven. The Clip plan is a semantics thing IMO. And some can call it a cheat, others will think it is an optimization. The point is most of the supposed cheats are gone and the performance is still past where it was with the cheats in 3dmark03.

If we are going to start crying about every little pixel that is out of place we can argue all day. Ever seen ATIs texture quality at off angles? Should I consider that a cheat or a limitation of the hardware? If I thought about it as much as some of the diehards I could literally lose my mind. But I dont really care provided the IQ isnt noticeably worse. And if it is so noticeable where people can see the problems playing Quake or any other FPS then people will simply stop buying the product. But people making a mountain out of a molehill is really getting old. I can really care less if frame 873902 out of 297928374987 didnt render quite right. It wont degarde my experience.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Secondly, on the Nvidia cheating fiascos: obviously someone out there had to notice all the cheats Nvidia put in their drivers or they never would have come out.

You know how it worked? Somebody tried something in the developer version of the software. The Fanbois jumped on and within weeks all we got were comparision shots at 600x zoom proving Nvidia cheats even more than they already did. It was like lynchmob trying to find anything and everything they could wrong with every single shot. It was probably the saddest display I have seen yet from the reviewer community.

I don't want to get drawn into this again, but the first signs that the 5800 & co. were doing something less than was asked of them was nV pulling support of 3DM03, followed shortly by screenshots showing problems in various scenes of the free version and other high-precision apps. Hardware.fr documented a few examples that are visible without the aid of magnifying lenses.

Enough with the "fanbois," already. A reviewer's job should be to investigate and elaborate on the differences between cards. Making you feel good about your purchase is the IHV's job, not the reviewer's. Given that many reviewers and most people expected the two biggest PC games (HL2 & D3) to appear last winter and to feature high precision paths, their focus on DX9 performance wasn't wholly a personal vendetta against mean ol' nVidia.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: Genx87
If the only way you can "refute" my statements is to take everything I say and blow it way the hell out of proportion then there's no point in continuing this.

Just where did I blow anything you said out of proporation?

The facts speak for themselves. Nvidia has been caught cheating repeatedly. Who cares how they were caught? Nvidia has (and continues) to lower image quality behind the scenes (hopefully without the user's knowledge) to gain speed in popular benchmarks (real and synthetic).

If it is "behind" the scenes who cares? "Behind" indicates to me it is nothing you would notice anyways.


Can you honestly say they haven't done that? I don't care if the IQ loss is only apparent to 1% of the population, IT'S STILL CHEATING!

Only possibly in 3dmark03 with shader replacements. Ironically the shader cheats are gone and performance is up. So could the original claims about cheats really have been a bug? You getting where my "lynchmob" label is coming from? And if we are going to start labeling every single rendering problem a cheat then both parties are guilty as sin. And if we start labeling every rendering issue a problem what happens when the application doesnt even work? Are we going to say because the application wont work the IHV obviously hacked together something so bad it wont even run?


Oh, and if you think 3dmark03 is the only app in which Nvidia has been caught cheating I suggest you do your homework a little more thoroughly Aquamark ring a bell? Whole shaders removed from scenes you say? If you don't notice a large area of the screen being rendered improperly, then you're either not paying attention or you've just become used to Nvidia's lowered IQ compared to say ATI or Matrox.

And exactly what version of the drivers was this problem noticed on?

We're not talking about replacement shaders here, we're talking about the complete lack thereof. Clip planes, removed shaders, lowered filtering quality, application detection for the purpose of "optimization", how is that not cheating?

Lets see after the final release of the drivers all those problem magically disappeared. You dont happen to think these were legitmate bugs with a beta version of the drivers do you?

Think what you like about Nvidia. It's quite obvious to everyone but Nvidiots that Nvidia has cheated and continues to do so. This is not to say that ATI has never cheated, but at least they admitted to it and corrected the mistakes. Nvidia just tried to brush everything under the carpet and bury their cheats a little deeper in their drivers.


Are you going to take your toys home with you as well? Look the whole cheating thing has never really been proven. The Clip plan is a semantics thing IMO. And some can call it a cheat, others will think it is an optimization. The point is most of the supposed cheats are gone and the performance is still past where it was with the cheats in 3dmark03.

If we are going to start crying about every little pixel that is out of place we can argue all day. Ever seen ATIs texture quality at off angles? Should I consider that a cheat or a limitation of the hardware? If I thought about it as much as some of the diehards I could literally lose my mind. But I dont really care provided the IQ isnt noticeably worse. And if it is so noticeable where people can see the problems playing Quake or any other FPS then people will simply stop buying the product. But people making a mountain out of a molehill is really getting old. I can really care less if frame 873902 out of 297928374987 didnt render quite right. It wont degarde my experience.

"The whole cheating thing has never really been proven" :Q
I can't believe I just read that... Do you really believe that, or are you just trying to get a rise out of me? Either way, you're sadly mistaken.
Let me explain this to you one more time.
It matters not what the method of Nvidia's cheating is or what results it produces, cheating is cheating! Since when did it become ok to deceive one's customers?
If you approve of Nvidia's methods then that's fine. That's your choice to make and I certainly won't stop you from making it.
However, I must reiterate: it's attitudes like yours that not only allow but *encourage* Nvidia's dirty practices. Perhaps if most people weren't so apathetic as you are, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because *both* companies would have been forced to stop cheating by consumers.
Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. There's no point in arguing with an obvious fanboy. Good day.

 

[PCTweaker5]

Fanboy's suck! Im not an Nvidia fan I just prefer reliability over performance.

 

[Jeff7181]

It all depends what you consider cheating... I don't consider anything nVidia did cheating, I consider it optimizing... is it a good idea to optimize for a benchmark? Probably not if the optimizations ONLY effect the benchmark, or effect other applications by such a small amount that it's not worth mentioning.

Lets just put this lame argument to rest... we have tons of new technology coming out, lets steer the thread back to THAT topic.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
It all depends what you consider cheating... I don't consider anything nVidia did cheating, I consider it optimizing... is it a good idea to optimize for a benchmark? Probably not if the optimizations ONLY effect the benchmark, or effect other applications by such a small amount that it's not worth mentioning.

Lets just put this lame argument to rest... we have tons of new technology coming out, lets steer the thread back to THAT topic.

Well, seeing as how *every* cheat that has been discovered thus-far has been specific to only one application (due to application detection) I'm gonna have to go with "that's a bad thing".

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
NV40, optimizing to the n power.

.
.
.
.
.
graphics^n




Did I connect the dots? I've never seen that logo before.

Edit: Forum won't accept italics tags within link tags, apparently.

 

[Luthien]

Nvidia drivers have always been superior to ATI drivers by leaps and bounds in my own personal experience. By, superior I mean Nvidia cards have worked for me without problems with games, they install without having to reinstall my operating system, they install without my having to search and destroy past drivers installed or search my registry over and over to find out every time all that doesnt work and I have to reinstall the OS anyhow which is the first thing tech support will recommend... Canada long distance tech support sucks on the phone bill, I have also had issues with ATI cards installed and the system wont boot up. All this is my experience and I still buy the best card for the money and convenience. I would buy a 9800pro but I know I will have to reinstall my OS if I do. I would buy a 5950 XT but I know it is slower and way overpriced. I cant win so I am waiting till the newer cards come out and then I will probably still buy a 9800pro @ $200 or 5900XT if the price drops to like $149 but for my sanity and convenience sake I hope the 5900XT drops in price. Even better if Nvidea spanks ATI with the new cards and if they are really twice as fast I would pay $350. The only real reason I want Nvidea to win is that I have had too many problems with ATI over the years and if they win the speed award this time around I will be worried about all the same problems happening as I consider buying one.

 

[RyanLM]

I too still find to many damn issues with ATI Drivers. The last 2 releases have broken Quake 3 for me. Both still play, but the Gamma is now totally screwed up (almost 0 light) Going back to earlier drivers fixes this, course then other things are broke because of using a few month old drivers.

Another thing that sucks is MultiMon issues. Half the time on reboots, it forgets that I have 2 monitors, shuts my main one off, leaves my secondary on. Unfortunately its a pain in the arse to login and change the display settings when they appear on the Primary Monitor (which, for those of you not following along to close, is now turned off!!!)

I used to use a TI 4800, and I would never have to think about these issues. I upgraded my drivers because every 4 months I could get a 30% speed boost. Now I have to update just to make sure my games work. That sucks.

Another thing I noticed, whether its a hardware issue or a driver issue - My box crashes in games now. Windows is still running, as I can get access to shares, services, etc from a remote box, but my damn video card is froze. Half the time it decides to come back to life, the other half I have to reboot. (yes, I have VPU recover turned on. Its very telling about the hardware that it even NEEDED to be an option) I currently have a Radeon 9800XT in my box. My old TI4800 is in my other gaming box (both systems besides the Vid card are almost identical, same mobo, CPU, ram, and HD - different CD/DVD stuff and case) Needless to say my other box doesnt crash.

So I am now left with a choice. Either lower my resoultion, and turn down some AA and filtering - but play any game, when I want, and not have to worry about crashing. Or play games in full glory in short stints, and fight for a few mintues to get my primary monitor to come back on after the inevitable crash.

Can you tell I am hoping that nVidia gets their act together so I dont have to make a comprimise?

 

[Luthien]

Ryan, I agree with you completely. I think that most have come to accept ATI's foibles for the extra speed and such. I have found that waiting for ATI to fix something is pretty hopeless. However many people swear ATI works fine for them and they do make faster cards... If, I can just hold off long enough for both ATI and Nvidia's new cards I will make my decision then on my own next upgrade. Again I personally hope Nvidea wins just becuase they have served me personally better with drivers on my own systems.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: Pete

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
NV40, optimizing to the n power.

.
.
.
.
.
graphics^n




Did I connect the dots? I've never seen that logo before.

Edit: Forum won't accept italics tags within link tags, apparently.

The "Graphics ^ n" logo? Naw, I've seen that for a while.

Trust me, you're reading into it too much...or are you?

 

[reever]

Trust me, you're reading into it too much...or are you?

That doesn't make sense, or doesn't it?

 

[First]

Originally posted by: reever

Trust me, you're reading into it too much...or are you?

That doesn't make sense, or doesn't it?

 

[Pete]

Not anymore, I ain't!

 

[oldfart]

Evan is just bursting at the seams to tell us what he knows! Sounds like nv40 is gonna kick some serious butt!!

 

[Pete]

It also sounds like it may be coming later rather than sooner, according to Uttar. :\ Dangit, I want some real numbers by Cebit!

 

[nRollo]

There is a lot of bs in this thread.

PCTweaked:

They are just different in clock speeds so why put all those different price ranges for the same product? I know a lot of you are going to see it different but thats how I think it should be. It seems only Nvidia is doing this but there are the 9600Pro and XT too.

Good Lord. ATI does this way more than nVidia. LE,SE, none, XT, Pro. They are the kings of weird slot markings. BTW it's 9600, 9600Pro, 9600XT.

Evan:

NV40, optimizing to the n power.

I will be very interested to see the nV40 performance, unless you have been using one and some anti-detect settings to back you, you have no cause to say this. Whether they "cheated" in the past to make their products more marketable is beside the point, and ATI has done it too.

Silvertrine:

Oh and for all the people saying that the 5800/5900 were as good as ATi's cards get real, Nvidia only stayed close with exotic cooling, exotic ram, and flat out cheating. They'd better damn well have a totally new architecture and they better not try to cheat so blatantly this time around I have a feeling they wont get away with it the second time around.

Arf arf arf. Arf arf arf. While it's all very interesting you think it's somehow cheating to use higher speed RAM to get more memory bandwidth, you have no point. But I'm "sure" your stern admonition that "nVidia better have a new architecture" is being discussed and given due consideration at nVidia.

LOL you guys have no clue whatsoever as to how business works. Newsflash: nVidia is a publicly held company with one responsibility: make money for shareholders. They don't have to "play nice" and not send nasty sales memos like the Kyro 2 "scandal", it doesn't matter if their competition may haev helped put 3dfx under, they can write their drivers to do whatever they want them to, and they don't have to make the card that's fastest at every single thing every single year. When you guys get your own companies, you can run them however you want. If you don't like how nVidia runs theirs or writes their drivers, guess what? You don't have to buy them.