HUMUS ATI/Doom3 tweak explored

[gururu]

Article

"As we can see, Humus' tweak has a much greater effect when using ATIs own control panel anisotropic filtering than when in-game filtering is used. The explanation for this is most likely quite simple - In the normal part of the game code altered by Humus, a texture look-up table was used to generate values. Using in-game AF, this is obviously not filtered as it is both unnecessary and computationally expensive. However, when AF is forced by the driver, it applies its filtering to everything, including the aforementioned look-up table, thus contributing to the large performance hits we've seen using this method.

Humus' tweak removes the look-up table code to replace it with code to calculate maths values instead - This offers a small performance improvement when in-game AF is used thanks to the X800 Pros speed at handling such operations, but when AF is forced at driver-level, the performance increase is vastly greater as the look-up table is no longer available to be processed by the anisotropic filtering mechanism, thus saving the amount of time normally required to be spent on filtering it.

With regard to image quality, there were no noticeable differences to the naked eye when this tweak was used compared to the normal Doom 3 code. It is no doubt not identical to the original image, but is perfectly acceptable and usable for game-play. "

 

[Manzelle]

It is effective...I get almost 60fps @ 1024x768 on Ultra Quality using NoAA and 2xAF - even at NoAA and 16xAF I get just above 50fps...

All of this with a 9800 Pro @ 441/734...

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Manzelle
It is effective...I get almost 60fps @ 1024x768 on Ultra Quality using NoAA and 2xAF - even at NoAA and 16xAF I get just above 50fps...

All of this with a 9800 Pro @ 441/734...

What did you get before the "effective" Humus tweaks? 58 and 48?
To me the "improvements" of the 4.9 CATs and Humus tweaks look pretty impotent- sad news for anyone who doesn't own an nVidia card or X800XT PE indeed.

 

[Manzelle]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Manzelle
It is effective...I get almost 60fps @ 1024x768 on Ultra Quality using NoAA and 2xAF - even at NoAA and 16xAF I get just above 50fps...

All of this with a 9800 Pro @ 441/734...

What did you get before the "effective" Humus tweaks? 58 and 48?
To me the "improvements" of the 4.9 CATs and Humus tweaks look pretty impotent- sad news for anyone who doesn't own an nVidia card or X800XT PE indeed.

I got right around 50-51 @ 1024x768 Ultra Quality using NoAA and 2xAF and right around 42-43 with 16xAF on...the only thing I do not like is the fact that I have to backup my .pk4 file and use the original one when I want to play multiplayer otherwise the servers won't let me connect...but for single player the improvements are generous...

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Manzelle
It is effective...I get almost 60fps @ 1024x768 on Ultra Quality using NoAA and 2xAF - even at NoAA and 16xAF I get just above 50fps...

All of this with a 9800 Pro @ 441/734...

What did you get before the "effective" Humus tweaks? 58 and 48?
To me the "improvements" of the 4.9 CATs and Humus tweaks look pretty impotent- sad news for anyone who doesn't own an nVidia card or X800XT PE indeed.

Keep in mind he's pulling a fairly incredible overclock on that r9800pro. The game is playable for me @ 1280x1024 on medium detail. The Humus tweak only helps AF, which I can't really afford to use. 4.9 only helps on the new x800 cards really.

People seem to really enjoy spending hours tweaking this game though. To me, it's just not worth it, for 10fps or whatever. That's time that could be spent playing the game... or browsing the forums.

But yeah, it's obvious that Nvidia has dominated Doom 3. The world is right, up is up, the 5800 vindicated, and the ATI heathens banished.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Rollo

To me the "improvements" of the 4.9 CATs and Humus tweaks look pretty impotent- sad news for anyone who doesn't own an nVidia card or X800XT PE indeed.

Because getting around 10 frames more is sad news?

You may want to re-word your post. Not every nVidia card gets great frames in Doom3.

Why is it NV users have such dislike for the Humus tweak? More frames with 99% the same image quality is a good thing. Except to those who are jealous, or want to belittle people who use other cards.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Rollo

To me the "improvements" of the 4.9 CATs and Humus tweaks look pretty impotent- sad news for anyone who doesn't own an nVidia card or X800XT PE indeed.

Because getting around 10 frames more is sad news?

You may want to re-word your post. Not every nVidia card gets great frames in Doom3.

Why is it NV users have such dislike for the Humus tweak? More frames with 99% the same image quality is a good thing. Except to those who are jealous, or want to belittle people who use other cards.

Man, if you said "More frames with 99% the same image quality is a good thing" back when the nvidia optimization fiasco was going on, the ATI guys would have ripped you a new one. This is Nvidia's payback.

 

[Ackmed]

This is an OPTIONAL tweak. Not ATi's drivers doing something fishy. Its not even close to what NV has done in the past. Calling it NV's paypack is silly.

Its pretty simple, if you try the tweak and like the more frames it gives you, use it. If for some reason you dont, then dont.

 

[rbV5]

Tweaks and whatnot aside, I've been playing Doom3 the last couple days, and I have to say that gameplay and enjoyment is every bit as good with my AIW 9700pro rig as my 6800 rig. Doom3 may run a little faster on the NV cards, but its every bit as good on my ATI card. Simple as that.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Rollo

To me the "improvements" of the 4.9 CATs and Humus tweaks look pretty impotent- sad news for anyone who doesn't own an nVidia card or X800XT PE indeed.

Because getting around 10 frames more is sad news?

You may want to re-word your post. Not every nVidia card gets great frames in Doom3.

Why is it NV users have such dislike for the Humus tweak? More frames with 99% the same image quality is a good thing. Except to those who are jealous, or want to belittle people who use other cards.

I have an nV card, but I think this tweak rox Anything that helps people enjoy the gaming experience more is to be invited. After seeing the initial results on ATi hardware, I'm sure owners are stoked to have a nice performance improvement come so quickly.

 

[imported_tss4]

The better ATI performs, the more NVIDIA will be pushed to deliver better performance. The same thing goes in reverse. Its win-win for all of us.

 

[gururu]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
I have an nV card, but I think this tweak rox Anything that helps people enjoy the gaming experience more is to be invited. After seeing the initial results on ATi hardware, I'm sure owners are stoked to have a nice performance improvement come so quickly.

that's a cool attitude. Everyone deserves the best possible gaming experience.

 

[Insomniak]

From what I understand, Humus's tweak is not mathematically equivalent and results in increased artifacting within specular maps - this is just what I've seen from the discussions over at Beyond3D.

If he's somehow modified it to be mathetmatically equivalent, and to remove the artifacting, more power to him. More performance is always nice, for whatever reason.

I still hold the position, however, that ATi's OpenGL support needs work. It is not up to par with Nvidia's.

 

[gururu]

Originally posted by: Insomniak
From what I understand, Humus's tweak is not mathematically equivalent and results in increased artifacting within specular maps - this is just what I've seen from the discussions over at Beyond3D.

If he's somehow modified it to be mathetmatically equivalent, and to remove the artifacting, more power to him. More performance is always nice, for whatever reason.

I still hold the position, however, that ATi's OpenGL support needs work. It is not up to par with Nvidia's.

There is no explanation as to why it would not be mathematically equivalent unless the gpu was botching an equation; the tweak doesn't add a third-party equation nor does it remove any equations.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Manzelle
It is effective...I get almost 60fps @ 1024x768 on Ultra Quality using NoAA and 2xAF - even at NoAA and 16xAF I get just above 50fps...

All of this with a 9800 Pro @ 441/734...

What did you get before the "effective" Humus tweaks? 58 and 48?
To me the "improvements" of the 4.9 CATs and Humus tweaks look pretty impotent- sad news for anyone who doesn't own an nVidia card or X800XT PE indeed.

Keep in mind he's pulling a fairly incredible overclock on that r9800pro. The game is playable for me @ 1280x1024 on medium detail. The Humus tweak only helps AF, which I can't really afford to use. 4.9 only helps on the new x800 cards really.

People seem to really enjoy spending hours tweaking this game though. To me, it's just not worth it, for 10fps or whatever. That's time that could be spent playing the game... or browsing the forums.

But yeah, it's obvious that Nvidia has dominated Doom 3. The world is right, up is up, the 5800 vindicated, and the ATI heathens banished.

Nebor I truly wish your 9800 would run Doom3 at 16X1200 Ultra quality, 6X16X at 100fps minimum.

I was just commenting those benchmarks looked pretty sad for the most part. One frame here, two frames there- the best one on the page was 5.6 fps and that was at a setting no one would ever play at.
If that's worth the work and possible artifacting to a user, I say "Go nuts" but I don't think I'd bother.

To me it would be worth it to buy a 6800NU just to play this game. If you love Doom3, and hate nVidia, you could buy a 6800NU for $283, play the game, sell it for $250 and be out $30-$40. and had basically as good of performance as guys with X800XT PEs got for $500, if they could find one.

LOL about the 5800U being vindicated. Big nV- big bad nV.

 

[Manzelle]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Nebor I truly wish your 9800 would run Doom3 at 16X1200 Ultra quality, 6X16X at 100fps minimum.

I was just commenting those benchmarks looked pretty sad for the most part. One frame here, two frames there- the best one on the page was 5.6 fps and that was at a setting no one would ever play at.
If that's worth the work and possible artifacting to a user, I say "Go nuts" but I don't think I'd bother.

To me it would be worth it to buy a 6800NU just to play this game. If you love Doom3, and hate nVidia, you could buy a 6800NU for $283, play the game, sell it for $250 and be out $30-$40. and had basically as good of performance as guys with X800XT PEs got for $500, if they could find one.

LOL about the 5800U being vindicated. Big nV- big bad nV.

I refuse to pay $300+ for a video card for one game...to me, that is just silly. A 9800 Pro isn't what it used to be and everyone knows this. Well here is some more shocking news: Neither will your 6800 whatever come 2 years from now so what are we talking about here? I have owned both NVIDIA (3D Prophet II) and ATI (9500 Pro & 9800 Pro) and they all were/are great cards. Not everyone has to spend $300+ on a game (that's already $40+) to enjoy it. If we can tweak a little life out of our last generation cards what's the big fuss about?

 

[rbV5]

To me it would be worth it to buy a 6800NU just to play this game. If you love Doom3, and hate nVidia, you could buy a 6800NU for $283, play the game, sell it for $250 and be out $30-$40

To me that would be silly since it plays and looks well on less powerful cards. Unless things change in later levels,....my 6800 offers no real advantage over my 9700 even with a little higher resolution and quality settings. The darkness of the game coupled with the atmosphere and action, I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference in the game between either of my setups, there's just not a dramatic difference between medium and high quality settings, or 800x600 and 1024x768, at least not enough to justify buyig a card to play at slightly higher settings IMO.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: gururu
There is no explanation as to why it would not be mathematically equivalent unless the gpu was botching an equation; the tweak doesn't add a third-party equation nor does it remove any equations.

Uh, no, but it DOES change the math that is being done, both the operations being performed and the values involved - which can easily lead to differing output as much as changing an equation.

X + Y = Z

Z is different if either X or Y is changed, despite the fact the equation is the same.


From what I've seen, the specular artifacting is minimal - the specular is just far brighter in some places than with the default code for some reason...instead of looking shiny, small areas look almost bleached. If I have time after work, I'll nab a screeny from Beyond3D so you can see what I'm talking about.

It'd be easy to overlook if you weren't looking for it, far as I can tell.

Anyway, gotta run. Must earn paycheck.

 

[gururu]

Originally posted by: Insomniak
Uh, no, but it DOES change the math that is being done, both the operations being performed and the values involved - which can easily lead to differing output as much as changing an equation.

X + Y = Z

Z is different if either X or Y is changed, despite the fact the equation is the same.


From what I've seen, the specular artifacting is minimal - the specular is just far brighter in some places than with the default code for some reason...instead of looking shiny, small areas look almost bleached. If I have time after work, I'll nab a screeny from Beyond3D so you can see what I'm talking about.

It'd be easy to overlook if you weren't looking for it, far as I can tell.

Anyway, gotta run. Must earn paycheck.

ok that makes sense. But I guess the more relevant questions are:
1) Did you decide to keep the tweak on your ATI machine while playing D3?
2) Have you tested the tweak yourself on an ATI machine and noticed differences?

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: rbV5

To me it would be worth it to buy a 6800NU just to play this game. If you love Doom3, and hate nVidia, you could buy a 6800NU for $283, play the game, sell it for $250 and be out $30-$40

To me that would be silly since it plays and looks well on less powerful cards. Unless things change in later levels,....my 6800 offers no real advantage over my 9700 even with a little higher resolution and quality settings. The darkness of the game coupled with the atmosphere and action, I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference in the game between either of my setups, there's just not a dramatic difference between medium and high quality settings, or 800x600 and 1024x768, at least not enough to justify buyig a card to play at slightly higher settings IMO.

You could really say that about ANY video card comparison though when you're talking about upgrading. It's not $300 either- a guy with a 9700Pro has a card worth $140- half the cost of a NU. If you consider the 9700Pro on average 10% slower than a 9800XT, and a 6800NU on average 20% faster than a 9800XT, you're talking about a 30% increase in performance for $140 out of pocket. (and Far Cry or other games thrown in) When you add in the Doom 3 factor being able to run it at a decent setting like 12X10, 2X8X, to me that seems like an excellent bargain. (and that is a LOT higher setting than any 9700Pro can run it at)

 

[Drayvn]

FRom what Humus has said, the Doom3 engine uses a look up table for the textures, which favour the nVidias, but his tweak changes the look up table into a mathematically equation, which favours the ATi cards, and decreases frame rates on the nVidia, and everyone knows the ATi cards are better at math calculations than nVidia.

But anyway, the only way this works best is to use the ATi control panel to do these things, as the game engine will only apply it to certain areas in the game, to keep the performance as high as possible, so using the games engine is actually detrimental to the math calculation tweak that Humus uses, as it has to do multiple ones. But applying this in the control panel means it doesnt do it to select areas but to the whole screen, so everything has AF, and so increase performance as the x800 has very good code for AF....

 

[LocutusX]

I got a pretty substantial improvement after installing the latest version of HumusTweak. And I didn't have to edit any PK3 files - you just extract a 7K file into your Doom3 base directory. Rename it to "*.bak" when you decide to play online. Anyways, with just a Rad98P and the Beta Catalyst 4.9's, I got about a 5 fps improvement in 1024x768 at High. That's just the improvement of timedemo1; actually gameplay seems to be a little better. Rooms which would cause fps to "dip" down to 25fps when i walk around them with the flashlight on, now only dip down to 32fps.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: gururu

ok that makes sense. But I guess the more relevant questions are:
1) Did you decide to keep the tweak on your ATI machine while playing D3?
2) Have you tested the tweak yourself on an ATI machine and noticed differences?

I do not own an ATi machine, but my closest friend does, and we spent several hours a couple days ago playing around with this tweak. He decided not to keep it, since his frames were high enough that another 4 or 5 FPS weren't going to be noticable (his rig runs well above 50 FPS most of the time anyway, at 1024x768, high quality, some AA/AF).

While playing the tweaked version I did notice the specular artifacting, but most likely only because I was looking for it due to what I read on Beyond3D. If I had not been informed of them previously, I probably just would've taken them for overzealous specular maps on an object or two and not thought a thing about it.

The bottom line is that while I don't consider the tweak to be mathematically equivalent and it does affect IQ (although not neccesarily for the worse - it's a taste thing), I don't think it matters. You won't notice minor specular artifacts when a Pinky is after your ass.

My recommendation is try it for yourself. If you prefer the tweak, then by all means keep it. It's certainly a viable option.

 

[kylebisme]

you must have been useing an old version of the tweak, humus has since figured out the proper code to avoid the issues with the spelcular maps.

 

[Xenon14]

I have a 2500+, 512ram, and 9700Pro, all at stock speeds. I also have Cat 4.9 installed. At 800x600 med quality I get a Minimum 30fps. What kind of an improvement will I be looking at if I install the Humus tweak?