Hunger is a great motivator

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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
This article may be relevant:
http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2016...-most-costly-for-US-healthcare/3221463752962/

I am concerned that need for government assistance is greatest in those with severe impairments which are defined by deficits in ability to maintain stable housing, transportation, read and write, fill out forms, know what day it is, show up for appointments, stay out of jail to make those appointments, have a way to get to those appointments, hire and work with a disability lawyer, etc. These are people that, often, on their best days are worried about where they are sleeping next or where their next meal is coming from.

Any kind of barriers to access of these resources discriminates most against this population, even if its intent is to knock off freeloaders.

After all, it is impossible to administratively determine that someone is making an effort to better themselves or otherwise is unable to do so. Freeloaders are those most apt to benefit, because they'll know how to game the system by showing up for work training and not actually trying to work, etc.

Yet barriers must exist because this is inherently a limited resource, so you must ration it somehow. For disability cases, wait times are on average > 1 year, in some places > 2, just for a hearing, in which is rejected 2/3 of the time on first hearing regardless of case merit as a way of rationing the expense even more.

To actually get disability, you have to hire a lawyer. You have to show up to appointments with a lawyer. You have to make yourself a priority for that lawyer. You have to show up to doctors. You have to get them to fill out paperwork and send records. Most doctors won't do it or do it correctly. Even if they do, you'll get rejected. Then you have to do it over and over again until someone says yes. It's exhausting work that legitimately disabled people often cannot do on their own. Some are lucky enough to have been established with a case manager that's worth a damn and some have family that are invested, but it ain't easy. Otherwise, if someone actually gets disability awarded by their own efforts, it is strong evidence that they have plenty of skills to earn a living without it.

You may not care so much about the people who are most marginalized. I don't blame you. It's my life, but I don't expect it to be yours. However, you should care about it when looking toward policy. If these people aren't receiving federal aid directly, they are indirectly. They are eating up your healthcare tax dollars or your prison or jail system tax dollars or your charitable donations. Of the most expensive places for them to be, the hospital and incarcerated take the cake. And it's also the most dangerous place for them to be.

This intervention will save money. Well, at least on the food stamp program. Unfortunately, I expect it to cost more money elsewhere, and such an effect will be so confounded it will be nearly impossible to measure.

But this is a problem with bureaucracy. Trimming your own budget often leaves some other budget taking up the slack and then some.
 

echo4747

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2005
1,978
156
106
Change food stamps into only having the ability to buy raw ingredients such as flour, sugar, yeast, cheap fruit and vegetables, milk, block cheese, rice, beans, whole chickens, etc. Every payout comes with recipe ideas using only ingredients available for purchase with food stamps.

Nobody starves and they learn a marketable skill: cooking.

That is not a bad idea. It will probably benefit the recipients health which, should additionally reduce their healthcare expenditures.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Is the state providing the work or training or are we expecting them to find their own jobs and pay for their own training? I'm all for a state work and training programs for people on welfare but I'm suspicious of programs that just tell them to sink or swim.
Agreed. I can tentatively support the Maine program, but the devil's in the details. Is this work useful work that otherwise would go undone, or is it merely saving the State money by using slave labor? Are the vocational training programs training for skills in demand, or merely giving one a line of work to be out of? Is the State offering an actual choice, or merely pretending there is such a choice?

This article may be relevant:
http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2016...-most-costly-for-US-healthcare/3221463752962/

I am concerned that need for government assistance is greatest in those with severe impairments which are defined by deficits in ability to maintain stable housing, transportation, read and write, fill out forms, know what day it is, show up for appointments, stay out of jail to make those appointments, have a way to get to those appointments, hire and work with a disability lawyer, etc. These are people that, often, on their best days are worried about where they are sleeping next or where their next meal is coming from.

Any kind of barriers to access of these resources discriminates most against this population, even if its intent is to knock off freeloaders.

After all, it is impossible to administratively determine that someone is making an effort to better themselves or otherwise is unable to do so. Freeloaders are those most apt to benefit, because they'll know how to game the system by showing up for work training and not actually trying to work, etc.

Yet barriers must exist because this is inherently a limited resource, so you must ration it somehow. For disability cases, wait times are on average > 1 year, in some places > 2, just for a hearing, in which is rejected 2/3 of the time on first hearing regardless of case merit as a way of rationing the expense even more.

To actually get disability, you have to hire a lawyer. You have to show up to appointments with a lawyer. You have to make yourself a priority for that lawyer. You have to show up to doctors. You have to get them to fill out paperwork and send records. Most doctors won't do it or do it correctly. Even if they do, you'll get rejected. Then you have to do it over and over again until someone says yes. It's exhausting work that legitimately disabled people often cannot do on their own. Some are lucky enough to have been established with a case manager that's worth a damn and some have family that are invested, but it ain't easy. Otherwise, if someone actually gets disability awarded by their own efforts, it is strong evidence that they have plenty of skills to earn a living without it.

You may not care so much about the people who are most marginalized. I don't blame you. It's my life, but I don't expect it to be yours. However, you should care about it when looking toward policy. If these people aren't receiving federal aid directly, they are indirectly. They are eating up your healthcare tax dollars or your prison or jail system tax dollars or your charitable donations. Of the most expensive places for them to be, the hospital and incarcerated take the cake. And it's also the most dangerous place for them to be.

This intervention will save money. Well, at least on the food stamp program. Unfortunately, I expect it to cost more money elsewhere, and such an effect will be so confounded it will be nearly impossible to measure.

But this is a problem with bureaucracy. Trimming your own budget often leaves some other budget taking up the slack and then some.
Well said. It often seems like it's only the freeloaders who actually get disability, with getting the "right" doctor much more important than actual need.

In my opinion, local governments should be taking people such as you describe and warehousing them in safe downtown barracks-style housing, with mental health counseling, cafeteria-style or soup kitchen-style meals, communal big screen televisions, and remedial primary and vocational education. Identify the ones who try and graduate them to tiny houses of their own. Some will recover to become productive citizens, some will receive the help they need to stabilize themselves, and others . . . Well, if someone is willing to simply exist in barracks watching television and eating whatever comes along, you're never going to make them productive citizens anyway. You're just kicking them into being someone else's program. Rather than supplying them with their own apartments or kicking them out onto the street, let's warehouse them. It's societal triage for the lower lower class, and yes, it's expensive. But homelessness should not be a widespread problem in 21st century America.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,674
24,980
136
so some states require them to have kids even if they can't afford them, refuse to help them pay for their unwanted kids, then take them away when they can't afford their unwanted kids?

This sounds like a fantastic system.
But its awesome on a bumper sticker. Who cares if there is any relationship with reality?
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
so some states require them to have kids even if they can't afford them, refuse to help them pay for their unwanted kids, then take them away when they can't afford their unwanted kids?

This sounds like a fantastic system.

I suspect that it makes some folks some money as well.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
In my opinion, local governments should be taking people such as you describe and warehousing them in safe downtown barracks-style housing, with mental health counseling, cafeteria-style or soup kitchen-style meals, communal big screen televisions, and remedial primary and vocational education. Identify the ones who try and graduate them to tiny houses of their own. Some will recover to become productive citizens, some will receive the help they need to stabilize themselves, and others . . . Well, if someone is willing to simply exist in barracks watching television and eating whatever comes along, you're never going to make them productive citizens anyway. You're just kicking them into being someone else's program. Rather than supplying them with their own apartments or kicking them out onto the street, let's warehouse them. It's societal triage for the lower lower class, and yes, it's expensive. But homelessness should not be a widespread problem in 21st century America.

Perhaps it would be more expensive to leave things as is. Perhaps that the savings on healthcare and the legal system are greater than the cost of your plan.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,577
4,659
136
But I will say this... even with corporate welfare there is still money going to the government and into the economy... way more that when someone leeches when they are able bodied and not raising children.




You have that utterly backwards.

Think about it for a moment.
 

madoka

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2004
4,344
712
121
Already the case in most states.

You can't even buy a prepared Walmart $4 rotiserie chicken on foodstamps. I noticed that the last time I was at Walmart and saw someone with foodstamps try to buy that. Mac and Cheese boxes, veggies, break ok.. prepared food nope, can't do!

What states are these?

In CA, you can use your EBT card at restaurants. For example, this rib place offers the $14 Barrack Obama special:

 

Tombstone1881

Senior member
Aug 8, 2014
486
161
116
Change food stamps into only having the ability to buy raw ingredients such as flour, sugar, yeast, cheap fruit and vegetables, milk, block cheese, rice, beans, whole chickens, etc. Every payout comes with recipe ideas using only ingredients available for purchase with food stamps.

Nobody starves and they learn a marketable skill: cooking.

And if you are not fortunate enough to have a kitchen because you are too poor to have a place to live, OR maybe you do have a place but couldn't afford to also have gas or electric, or happen to own any pots or pans, you can always wait for a hot day to try to cook an egg on the sidewalk, or just learn how to eat raw meat and vegetables! No problem!

 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
5,096
136
What states are these?

In CA, you can use your EBT card at restaurants. For example, this rib place offers the $14 Barrack Obama special:




But that's only in 7 counties in CA and you have to register for the program which is for use by eligible homeless, disabled, and/or elderly (ages 60 and above).

The counties are Alameda, Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego, San Francisco, San Luis Obispo, and Santa Clara.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,752
4,562
136
Sometimes I wish they let people use foodstamps on something like a rotiserie chicken for their family at Costco or Sams. For $5 you really are getting a lot of food for the money and it actually has good things in it like protein. It's certainly more understandable than say, letting people buy candy and soda which is permissible.
 

madoka

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2004
4,344
712
121
But that's only in 7 counties in CA and you have to register for the program which is for use by eligible homeless, disabled, and/or elderly (ages 60 and above).

The counties are Alameda, Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego, San Francisco, San Luis Obispo, and Santa Clara.

Those are some of the most populated counties in California covering most of the population.

And you're missing the bigger picture. At what point is it justified for a poor person to use welfare benefits to eat at a place where lunch specials start at $14?
 

madoka

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2004
4,344
712
121
And if you are not fortunate enough to have a kitchen because you are too poor to have a place to live, OR maybe you do have a place but couldn't afford to also have gas or electric, or happen to own any pots or pans, you can always wait for a hot day to try to cook an egg on the sidewalk, or just learn how to eat raw meat and vegetables! No problem!

Hobo stove:


 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
So you have a large group who are able-bodied, not raising a child... and simply do not want to work and leech off taxpayers. This is where welfare reform comes in. You require these people to either work or attend vocational training to receive food stamp benefits. What happens? Well the number of leeches drop significantly. Hunger is a great motivator!

The governor of Maine has implemented these reforms and he number of people receiving benefits has dropped quite a bit.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...nes-welfare-reforms-are-working/#2c79c0cca4c7

This is great news... especially considered that one of the requirements of coming to the United States as an immigrant is your will not be a public burden. Some data suggests that 50% of immigrants are on some form of public assistance. It would be nice to see the Maine program rolled out nationwide.

Starving people worked out so well for the upper class in the French Revolution did it?
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
That's way more expensive than a box of basic Kraft Mac n Cheese.

Edit: I just bought 3 boxes of the stuff for 99 cents a piece to put into a hunger drive that Safeway was sponsoring with the cooperation of I think a vets group.

Is it?

A bag of generic elbow macaroni is about $1 and would be good for 4 large batches of mac n cheese, each batch being at least double what a box of powdered garbage is. Add in 2 Tbsp butter, 2 Tbsp flour for a basic roux then stir in about 1c warm milk, add 2c of shredded cheese and you have a big batch of the stuff.

$0.25 noodles
$0.20 butter
$0.05 flour
$1.50 cheese
$0.20 milk

$2.20 total

This would make at least twice a box of mac n cheese, would be far healthier, and actually teaches basic cooking skills, not to mention no one wants to trade liquor or drugs for flour and milk so it should help stem abuse. I'm down with that.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
And if you are not fortunate enough to have a kitchen because you are too poor to have a place to live, OR maybe you do have a place but couldn't afford to also have gas or electric, or happen to own any pots or pans, you can always wait for a hot day to try to cook an egg on the sidewalk, or just learn how to eat raw meat and vegetables! No problem!


How would they make box mac n cheese?

If someone is to a point where they have nowhere to cook or can't keep the electricity or gas turned on, there are programs outside of food stamps to help them. The purpose of food stamps is to provide sustenance, not take living conditions into account.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
But that's only in 7 counties in CA and you have to register for the program which is for use by eligible homeless, disabled, and/or elderly (ages 60 and above).

The counties are Alameda, Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego, San Francisco, San Luis Obispo, and Santa Clara.

Please stop confusing people with actual facts.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
5,096
136
Those are some of the most populated counties in California covering most of the population.

And you're missing the bigger picture. At what point is it justified for a poor person to use welfare benefits to eat at a place where lunch specials start at $14?



When the gov't that's administering the benefits deems it appropriate. In this case, disabled, elderly and homeless.
 

madoka

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2004
4,344
712
121
When the gov't that's administering the benefits deems it appropriate. In this case, disabled, elderly and homeless.

So you accept that such people should get $14-30 lunches paid for by the state as long as the government says it's okay?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
Kraft Mac n Cheese shouldn't be on the list. Elbow macaroni noodles, milk, butter, block cheese? Yes. You can make a far healthier mac n cheese with that anyway.

That's way more expensive than a box of basic Kraft Mac n Cheese.

Edit: I just bought 3 boxes of the stuff for 99 cents a piece to put into a hunger drive that Safeway was sponsoring with the cooperation of I think a vets group.

It's time for America to join the Civilized World and call it Kraft Dinner.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
I posted this thread a while back asking if it would be wise to place restrictions on SNAP benefits to only foods deamed healthy and nutritious, I'm sure you can guess the response.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Perhaps it would be more expensive to leave things as is. Perhaps that the savings on healthcare and the legal system are greater than the cost of your plan.
Definitely cheaper as is. The economy doesn't need these people, and no one pays for the treatment, housing, training, etc. that they don't get. Maybe not cheaper in the long run, as some of these people would become productive. Also, there is something to be said for not trivializing the value and dignity of human life. Sometimes a Down's syndrome person can do more for your outlook than can a CEO.

Sometimes I wish they let people use foodstamps on something like a rotiserie chicken for their family at Costco or Sams. For $5 you really are getting a lot of food for the money and it actually has good things in it like protein. It's certainly more understandable than say, letting people buy candy and soda which is permissible.
Agreed. Sometimes people on food stamps honestly don't have time to cook either.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,590
29,297
136
Once again the party of small government never thinks about the cost of maintaining the food police department.
 
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