HVAC type question What Makes more sense ....

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,129
1,604
126
Hello,

I'm hoping there may be someone here with HVAC experience of some sort.

Currently, I live in an 1100 sq foot townhouse, the 2 bedrooms, as well as all the computers, are upstairs. Downstairs, it usually stays pretty comfortable when the thermostat is set to 75, however, upstairs it's still pretty warm and humid. I have tried the tricks with turning off certain vents, and closing doors, etc, however, that's not really helping.

I have 2 fans in my master bedroom, and they can keep it semi-comfortable, though still humid and sweaty.

I am not one for heat, and I really would like to keep things a bit cooler up here.


Master Beedrom info ....
I have 2 computers in here, one is always on, one is on most of the time, though I turn it off sometimes at night in my attempts to conserve electricity. The master Bedroom is really the only room that I need to have cool at night.
It's 16x11 feet, and the walk in closet, the door is pretty much always open, is another 40 sq feet. It has 2 North facing windows (side by side) that are 72 inches wide (total, 35inches each, with 2 inches between them) and they are 50 inches tall.


I see my options as

1.) Run the central AC at 72 degrees, this is costly, and it gets to be VERY comfortable downstairs, still warm and need a fan upstairs.

2.) I've heard about people using dehumidifiers, I live near chicago, so the humidity is pretty much ALWAYS more than 80% when it's hot, perhaps that's a good idea? though I've heard that they actually can cause the temperature to increase, and they really aren't any more efficient then the AC, so this is probably NOT a good option, though I don't know enough to be sure...

3.) Add a 6000 to 8000 BTU Window AC (that just runs off of a normal 110volt outlet) to the master bedroom. (with a 9.7 to 10.0 efficiency rating) .... then, use it when I'm using my PC, and/or when I'm sleeping ... I'd probably want to keep the bedroom door open though so the cat could come and go as she wants.

4.) Leave AC set to 75 to 78, continue to sweat my ass off when using the PC, continue not being able to sleep due to heat, perform poorly at work due to my lack of sleep, and get fired, then probably move to Barrow Alaska or somewhere in the mountains where it doesn't get above 70 degrees F ever.

I'd like to keep the initial expense below $200, (the lower the better) ... and I'd only consider 2 or 3 if it will save me at least a few bucks per month over option 1. I only listed number 4 for the people who say "dude, 85F isn't hot, it's nice". well, 85F is horrible, and it's even worse with 80% humidity and a heat index over 100.

I generally am pretty good about conserving energy in the winter, usually my thermostat is set between 58 and 62, and my doors and windows all have weatherstripping in good condition, and no drafts or anything.

I researched on the web, and I *think* I'm probably gonna head to sears, and purchase a window AC unit ... but I want to make sure this isn't something I'm going to regret when I get my electricity bill.

It's usually only *HOT* July and August here, and June usually stays in the 70s, however, these last 7 days have been extremely hellish, with temps surging over 90 degrees and nearly 100% humidity.


:Cliffs:
What's cheaper / makes more sense

1. Run Central Air at 72 degrees or less (so upstairs stays under 80 degrees)
2. Get a dehumidifier upstairs, to get the humidity down, thus making it more comfortable
3. Stick a Window AC in the master Bedroom, use Central air at 78 deg F, to keep the ground level comfortable, but keep the master bedroom at 76 deg F or less with the Window unit



EDITS


Originally posted by: mchammer
Did you try closing the downstairs vents? Is your filter clean?
Yes, I closed the downstairs vents. They are still closed, and it wasn't very helpfull.


Originally posted by: HOWITIS
didnt read your post, but heat rises, you know that right?
Hello Captain of the Obvious.



Originally posted by: mchammer
Originally posted by: Crucial
Are there any vents in the roof/attic? Vents to the outside, not A/C vents.

Good point, make sure the attic is ventilated.

The attic has only 1 vent, and it has that pink fiberglass insulation.




Originally posted by: mchammer
Maybe the unit is broken or needs a recharge.

It was just installed last year, the filter is clean, the air coming out of the vents inside is nice and cool, about 20 degrees cooler than the outside temperature




Originally posted by: lnguyen
heh, i'm in the same situation. over the years, it seems to have progressively gotten worse. And we don't even have computers upstairs. I think the 17 yr old AC unit is dying, needs freon, and our venting system needs work probably. Throw in the fact one side of the house is beat on by the sun from ~1pm - 7pm.. w/ no trees (neighbors killed them all, complained of the mess they make... townhome, every other house has/had a tree)

i'm going to install ceiling fans all around, and get the AC looked at (no idea who to call on this tho.. that is reliable.. so anyone in the g'burg, md area wanna chime in...). I have a dehumidifer in the basement.. and it basically creates heat, but pulls out moisture. I run it in the summer sometimes.. even tho it's hot, it helps.

The problem w/ the window units.. they're all like 12AMPs or something.. most outlets are maybe 15amps, maybe 20. So gotta make sure what you have on those outlets won't overload it (ie, your computers).

I've been suggested a whole house fan, or at least an attic fan vent as well. But unless you want to climb on your roof and run the power, won't fit the budget probably.


Hmm .... I wonder if maybe there's something wrong with the ducts, because there is a LOT of pressure downstairs, but not so much upstairs (though It could just be due to design .... same thing happens in the winter too)

While the Central AC is pretty new, the townhouse is 30+ years old, and I'm pretty sure all the vents are original.
 

QuitBanningMe

Banned
Mar 2, 2005
5,038
2
0
I'm not reading all of that. How is the ceiling/roof designed upstairs? Is there attic space above or no. Type of insulation? Windows? .....

and heat rises
 

Crucial

Diamond Member
Dec 21, 2000
5,026
0
71
Are there any vents in the roof/attic? Vents to the outside, not A/C vents.
 

mchammer

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2000
3,152
0
0
Originally posted by: Crucial
Are there any vents in the roof/attic? Vents to the outside, not A/C vents.

Good point, make sure the attic is ventilated.
 

randomlinh

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,853
2
0
linh.wordpress.com
heh, i'm in the same situation. over the years, it seems to have progressively gotten worse. And we don't even have computers upstairs. I think the 17 yr old AC unit is dying, needs freon, and our venting system needs work probably. Throw in the fact one side of the house is beat on by the sun from ~1pm - 7pm.. w/ no trees (neighbors killed them all, complained of the mess they make... townhome, every other house has/had a tree)

i'm going to install ceiling fans all around, and get the AC looked at (no idea who to call on this tho.. that is reliable.. so anyone in the g'burg, md area wanna chime in...). I have a dehumidifer in the basement.. and it basically creates heat, but pulls out moisture. I run it in the summer sometimes.. even tho it's hot, it helps.

The problem w/ the window units.. they're all like 12AMPs or something.. most outlets are maybe 15amps, maybe 20. So gotta make sure what you have on those outlets won't overload it (ie, your computers).

I've been suggested a whole house fan, or at least an attic fan vent as well. But unless you want to climb on your roof and run the power, won't fit the budget probably.
 

QuitBanningMe

Banned
Mar 2, 2005
5,038
2
0
Originally posted by: lnguyen
heh, i'm in the same situation. over the years, it seems to have progressively gotten worse. And we don't even have computers upstairs. I think the 17 yr old AC unit is dying, needs freon, and our venting system needs work probably. Throw in the fact one side of the house is beat on by the sun from ~1pm - 7pm.. w/ no trees (neighbors killed them all, complained of the mess they make... townhome, every other house has/had a tree)

i'm going to install ceiling fans all around, and get the AC looked at (no idea who to call on this tho.. that is reliable.. so anyone in the g'burg, md area wanna chime in...). I have a dehumidifer in the basement.. and it basically creates heat, but pulls out moisture. I run it in the summer sometimes.. even tho it's hot, it helps.

The problem w/ the window units.. they're all like 12AMPs or something.. most outlets are maybe 15amps, maybe 20. So gotta make sure what you have on those outlets won't overload it (ie, your computers).

I've been suggested a whole house fan, or at least an attic fan vent as well. But unless you want to climb on your roof and run the power, won't fit the budget probably.

The ac unit may be on the way out but you should get it checked out (charged, coils cleaned, etc.). Also a common thing to happen over a few years is the duct work to come loose from the trunk lines. Take some duct tape and seal connections.


and an attic fan is always a good idea
 

TwiceOver

Lifer
Dec 20, 2002
13,544
44
91
I'm no expert but I would go with either:

1) Turn up the overall Central Air

2) Leaving it normal and getting a window unit

I lived in a similar situation and we had a dedicated window unit (actually a through the wall type unit) and it worked great. The savings on electricity was less with the standalone unit rather than fvcking with vents and temps.
 

crab

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2001
7,330
19
81
Dude. Use the forum like everyone else, please? I realize your intentions putting replies up there, but thats seriously annoying.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,129
1,604
126
Originally posted by: crab
Dude. Use the forum like everyone else, please? I realize your intentions putting replies up there, but thats seriously annoying.


Aye, but I try to maintain a low post count .... if I reply to every reply seperatly, then it will go up too much!
 

sharkeeper

Lifer
Jan 13, 2001
10,886
2
0
Window shakers on the upper levels are the only cost effective solution I'm afraid.

Traditional residential installations are not capable of being balanced in a fashion that would deliver sufficent cooling to the upper levels in an efficient manner. Closing off the vents does nothing but reduce cooling capacity.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,129
1,604
126
Originally posted by: sharkeeper
Window shakers on the upper levels are the only cost effective solution I'm afraid.

Traditional residential installations are not capable of being balanced in a fashion that would deliver sufficent cooling to the upper levels in an efficient manner. Closing off the vents does nothing but reduce cooling capacity.


That's what I was thinking .....
I guess I'll have to check a few out ...

thanks!
 

arcas

Platinum Member
Apr 10, 2001
2,155
2
0
1) Is your central air unit sized appropriately? Perhaps it's too small for your geographic location?

2) Just because it was installed last year doesn't mean it was installed correctly or didn't leave the factory with a small leak. Though you said that the unit is keeping the downstairs comfortable so maybe it's working properly.

3) A powered roof or soffit vent might help keep the attic cooler. I've read mixed opinions of these.

Invest in a ceiling fan, if you haven't already, to mix the warm upstairs air with the cooler downstairs air.

 

Lounatik

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
1,845
1
0
Originally posted by: sharkeeper
Window shakers on the upper levels are the only cost effective solution I'm afraid.

Traditional residential installations are not capable of being balanced in a fashion that would deliver sufficent cooling to the upper levels in an efficient manner. Closing off the vents does nothing but reduce cooling capacity.


Yep, this is the way to go. I used to do HVAC and you would need to have someone come in and create zones in your house. The vents would open and close pneumatically to cool specific areas of your house. Expensive to say the least. You really should have had two smaller systems installed. This way you could have a return vent upstairs as well as downstairs. Recirculation is the key.

I am in the sameboat as you are. I finished off a room at the very top of my house and I needed to put t window unit up there because it is the uppermost room in the house and gets the most sun and heat. My system was already just about big enough for my house and the extra 450 or so square feet didnt help matters much. I got an 8000 btu,straight cool(no heat), 120v ac and it works like a charm. I turn it on in the late morning and let it run until the next morning when I wake up. These newer small units are very efficient and shouldnt cost you more than 100-150 bucks at Home Depot or Lowes.

One other thing is the humidity. An 8-9k btu ac will remove most of the humidity in a 500 sq ft room,so you will be comforrtable too. The key to air conditioning is not how much cold you can pump into a room, but how much moisture you can remove while cooling it.

Hope this helps.



Peace


Lounatik
 

markgm

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2001
3,290
1
81
I'd pass on the dehumidifier in the bedroom, or actually in any room that has A/C run to it as they pump out massive amounts of heat.

Personally I think you'd get by with moving the computers out of the master bedroom and relocating them to another room. I know the 1 computer in my bedroom raises the temp from a comfortable 74 to a miserable 78 in no time at all.

As a public service annoucement, you don't want to go closing vents/doors in a house with forced air. This puts a huge strain on the blower unless the ducts were made for this, which if you're not getting enough cold air upstairs, they weren't.

Personally if you plan on staying at this place I would look at the cost or ability of zoning your system so that you have a thermostat upstairs and one downstairs. When either thermostat trips it will open a damper which will only let the air out to the vents in that zone. If you don't have a variable motor fan in your system you'll need to do a little work with the ducts so you don't have the problem above to too much air going through too little vents.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,220
5,082
146
I'd go with the window unit also. It makes sense to cool the room that needs it, rather than the whole house. Using timers and thermostat scheduling, you can let the downstairs warm up a bit overnight, and set the wall or window unit to pre-cool the bedroom for you.
 

djNickb

Senior member
Oct 16, 2003
529
0
0
I had a very similar situation in my house. Its a bungalow style house and you can tell it was retro-fitted with AC because the vent for the upstairs master bedroom is rediculously small. I picked up a window AC from Home Depot, 8000 BTU, digital display, and remote control for around $160. I look at it this way its not cost effective or comfortable in the rest of the house to crank the central AC and if you live in the Midwest you really only use your AC for 3-4 months anyways. I'd say go for the window AC, use it as you need it and set the rest of the house to a comfortable temperature and stop suffering. Comfort is worth a certain amount of $$ IMO.
 
Oct 19, 2000
17,861
4
81
Same thing happens in my rental apartment, but I've gotten used to it. The downstairs is always comfortable in the summer or winter, but upstairs is either hotter than it is outside or colder than outside. Our problem comes from a combination of insulation and piss-poor duct work. The rent is cheap, however, so we live with it. In the summer, a fan blowing on me suffices, and in the winter, and extra blanket is quite comfortable.
 
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