Hybrid/electric owners ... has the low(er) price of oil caused you 2nd thoughts about

[JulesMaximus]

We have a Prius and no, don't regret getting it. Even with lower gas prices it still gets 48mpg consistently and a person can be happy with rarely having to fill up and for it to be so cheap per fill-up to boot. We really didn't "give up" anything when we went with the Prius. It's not like we were in the market for a 14k sportier car (doesn't exist) and then paying 20k for a slightly used hybrid, so most calculations are based on people paying a premium for the hybrid. (If you paid 28k+ for a hybrid then yeah calculations would need to be made)

If the gas prices stay low then that's cool but if they go up then we're covered. Again it's not like everyone wants to drive a 15MPG truck and then they give up that option to drive a hybrid. Some people just like econoboxes...and if you put the Prius in power mode it's much faster than let's say another econo like a Honda Fit.

MSRP for my Camry Hybrid XLE (top of the line model with leather, moonroof, nav etc) was over $33k. I paid $28k for it. Option up a 4-cylinder Camry to the same trim level and it costs $28k. The V6 XLE is even more.

I think the hybrids hold their value better too.

 

[TridenT]

With the price of oil/gas continuing to decline the additional/premium price of a hybrid over a car with a traditional internal combustion engine makes less sense, especially as prices continue lower. Yes, the price of fuel cannot and will not stay low forever, but it looks like the price of gas will remain relatively low for the next calendar year. This will make the more expensive hybrids less attractive. Additionally, those that drive fewer miles will take much longer to recoupe the premium price paid for said hybrid vehicle.


I'd like to throw a few questions out there to get some discussions going:

1) If you already own a hybrid do you (at all) regret doing so with today's lower fuel prices?

2) If you are considering the purchase of a hybrid vehicle is the currently low price of fuel giving you second thoughts? Are you reconsidering a more traditional vehicle?

3) If fuel prices continue to remain lower for the forseeable future do you think that the price of hybrid (and even electric) vehicles will be reduced to to lack of demand for such vehicles?



I am curious as to how hybrid buyers/owners might feel because I have never owned one. I drive too few miles per year to justify the premium cost of such vehicles (at the moment).


Thanks for all of your replies!

1) I don't own a hybrid but if I did I would not regret my decision. I don't do it just for the cost savings. The environmental reasons are why I would get one.

2) No difference. I would buy it for environmental reasons the most. Other cars in the similar category are not going to offer me anything substantial enough to influence my decision anyway. (What I am saying is, giving me a 8s 0-60 is not going to be a big enough deal over the prius 10-11s 0-60. Get down to the <5s 0-60 then I'm more interested but that's a different car class and much more costly to maintain/repair)

3) Gas prices won't remain low. And no, I don't think hybrid prices will decline hugely. Maybe 10-15%. From what I gather, they're more costly to produce.

If I could, I would much rather have an all electric car that only gets energy from renewable/clean energy sources. (solar/wind/hydro/geo-thermal) Or a hydrogen powered car that also gets its fuel from the same original power source. (electrolysis powered by solar/wind/hydro/etc)

 

[gus6464]

Costs me $30 every 2 weeks to fill up my Prius. Costs my wife $65 every 2 weeks to fill up her Accord. Paid around the same price for both. We are having a baby soon so the Prius will be our main family car as it can haul a bunch of crap and requires almost 0 maintenance.

We are actually thinking about selling the Accord and picking up a used E46 M3 as a fun car.

 

[Mide]

As was stated, buy used and you won't need to go through too many cost savings calculations. I think a used Prius C is around 14-16k range... No bells and whistles of course but for a commuter is should be great.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Just to add a little bit of clarification, for those of us who already own hybrids, lower gas prices still mean more money in our pockets every month.

My monthly gas bill when gas prices were $4/gallon was around $142/month, now it's around $100/month.

Just because you were dumb enough to drive a vehicle that gets 17mpg when gas prices were $4/gallon doesn't make my decision any less logical.

 

[Gillbot]

We got my wife a Malibu Eco Hybrid, with incentives and my preferred pricing, it was actually cheaper than the regular Malibu so I won't ever regret the purchase.

 

[mmntech]

My attitude on hybrids is they were never really worth it from a cost savings perspective. It takes several years before the owners starts to break even over a comparable ICE only vehicle. You don't buy them to save money, you buy them because you're an environmentalist.

I think people are really jumping the gun on the whole gas price thing. Either cash strapped governments are are going to raise taxes, or the price is going to go back up to where it was. Question is which comes first. Gas prices typically drop during the late Autumn and jump back up in March as refineries cut production to transition to summer blends. The current drop is an anomaly caused by the current issues in the Middle East. Oil was probably a bit overvalued on the global markets as well. As the Great Recession enters its seventh year, and China's economy is softening, resource markets have been taking a beating.

 

[Yuriman]

1) If you already own a hybrid do you (at all) regret doing so with today's lower fuel prices?


Absolutely not. It's a bonus.

2) If you are considering the purchase of a hybrid vehicle is the currently low price of fuel giving you second thoughts? Are you reconsidering a more traditional vehicle?


A lot of used hybrids have been appearing on Craigslist and autotrader for what would have been a steal a year ago. Temporarily low gas prices -> time to take advantage of someone else's shortsightedness.

3) If fuel prices continue to remain lower for the forseeable future do you think that the price of hybrid (and even electric) vehicles will be reduced to to lack of demand for such vehicles?


In the used market it has already happened.

~

My hybrid is actually a lot of fun. It's no S2000, but the first gen Insight is low to the ground, has stiff suspension and the same steering rack as the S2000, is light and has enough torque down low. In a straight line it's about 20% faster than a Prius, and it's a pleasure to drive on curvy roads due to decently tuned suspension and a very stiff aluminum frame.

Admittedly, I've considered widening the rear track a bit and adding doing some small mods to double the output of the electric system. For example for ~$20 I can increase the maximum assist from the motor/generator from 36 to 72ft lbs, though it would require that I tear into the battery box and do some splicing.

I paid $3500 for my car around 6 months ago when gas started to fall, and it had less than 100k miles. I just finished a tank with 77mpg. Next summer, if gas prices stay the same, I plan to do a tour of all four corners of the U.S. over a period of around 2 months, and gas should only cost me around $200 for the nearly 6500 miles I'll be driving. $70 gets me from Florida to California. Traveling has basically become free, an economic complete non-issue.

My last car consistently returned around 30mpg. When gas prices go back up, I'll have around $1200 per year more in my pocket to put into early retirement or spend on myself.


Regrets? None.

 

[JulesMaximus]

My attitude on hybrids is they were never really worth it from a cost savings perspective. It takes several years before the owners starts to break even over a comparable ICE only vehicle. You don't buy them to save money, you buy them because you're an environmentalist.

Totally not true. My monthly gas bill was cut in half by going with a hybrid. Since I was looking at other vehicles in this price range or even higher the hybrid didn't really cost any more than any of the other cars I was considering and if you option up the ICE version of my car to the same level it costs the same as what I paid for my car. I probably could have gotten a discount on the ICE Camry XLE so it may have been a couple grand less but I've already saved (or not spent) nearly three grand on fuel in the nearly 2 years and 38,000 miles I've put on my car.

Even with gas prices at $3/gallon here I'm still spending $100 less per month on fuel than I was with my last car. Average 20mpg vs average 39mpg (actual numbers, not EPA estimates). It's a huge difference.

 

[herm0016]

We don't regret getting the volt at all. It's a great car, and bought when considering a new car of similar price anyway. I drive about 50 miles a day and that is the best possible senareo for the shortest possible pay back. I'm saving about 300 a month in fuel over my truck. The payment is about that. I spend around 2.00 to go to work, instead of 8.50 in my truck.

Edit: I guess it's more like 200 a Month now. And cost is closer to 1.75 for the drive in the volt.

 

[desy]

If the only purpose is to save money you buy a Versa or Mazda 2 or some other cheap to purchase and maintain vehicle and get almost the mileage of a Hybrid.
Capital cost and opportunity cost, insurance, even little things like smaller regular tires all save money.
Anything other than automotive basics is extravagance, not that there is anything wrong with that, size safety features you can live without in most cases if the ONLY reason was $.
If it wasn't so cold around here I'd consider one or I drove city more cause there is a clear advantage there.

I'd think people who chose a hybrid would choose again as fuel cost I'm sure was only one of the check boxes, A ton of those would have sold just to get into the multiple occupancy lanes

 

[dirtboy]

I had a solar system installed and built an OpenEVSE charging box to support an BEV. Oil prices haven't changed my mind at all... my i3 should be in by the end of the year.

Lower oil means lower demand for these types of cars, which leads to lower pricing. Win all the way around.

Believe me, my dealer would rather keep the i3 on the lot. There's a reason one of the sales managers told me to take a new M4 for a spin...

 

[soccerballtux]

I think we passed a threshold. people are aware of gas prices now.

I know that I'm driving less efficiently since it's cheaper, but I'm still aware of what it costs.

 

[halik]

My hybrid is actually a lot of fun. It's no S2000, but the first gen Insight is low to the ground, has stiff suspension and the same steering rack as the S2000, is light and has enough torque down low. In a straight line it's about 20% faster than a Prius, and it's a pleasure to drive on curvy roads due to decently tuned suspension and a very stiff aluminum frame.

Sorry but that's just pure fanboi talk; first gen insight hits 60 in 11 seconds, under 0.8 on skid pad and more or less on par with prius in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile (apparently last gen prius was a bit quicker). You are literally the slowest car on the road that handles on par with a mid size SUV.

On the original topic, my V10 ~10mpg sedan is getting better and better.

 

[jlee]

Sorry but that's just pure fanboi talk; first gen insight hits 60 in 11 seconds, under 0.8 on skid pad and more or less on par with prius in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile (apparently last gen prius was a bit quicker). You are literally the slowest car on the road that handles on par with a mid size SUV.

On the original topic, my V10 ~10mpg sedan is getting better and better.

My LX450 is slower.

 

[ultimatebob]

Come on.... How long do you really expect gas prices to stay this low? Once OPEC has put a bunch of the shale oil producers out of business (who's costs for pumping oil are a LOT higher than the desert oil producers), you know damn well that they'll jack the prices back up to $100 a barrel or more.

 

[Tweak155]

Is there an insurance premium for hybrid vs ICE? I've never even considered hybrid because for the vehicles I'm interested in, the premium alone for hybrid is way too high (I like Ford vehicles).

Jules makes a good point though, either I give the money to oil companies or I give them to the company I appreciate. Never considered that.

If I didn't replace my vehicles so often, I'd probably give it more thought.

 

[Yuriman]

Sorry but that's just pure fanboi talk; first gen insight hits 60 in 11 seconds, under 0.8 on skid pad and more or less on par with prius in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile (apparently last gen prius was a bit quicker). You are literally the slowest car on the road that handles on par with a mid size SUV.

On the original topic, my V10 ~10mpg sedan is getting better and better.

You're probably right. I like my car though.

Still, the stock tires have very poor grip and handling gets a lot better if you swap them out. Space the rear track so it's not narrower than the front and that helps too.

http://vimeo.com/92800811
Stock Insight autocross ^

Typical times for my CVT Insight are around 3 seconds out of first place for Road Tire Front, with cars like Mazda 3s (raw time) and Dodge SRTs (on index) beating me. In STF, it will probably be more like 6 seconds to 1st compared with where I am now. And, in comparison to the fastest door slammers ('Vettes, Camaros, Miatas, FR-Ss), I am typically behind by 9 to 11 seconds. Again, on a typically 60 second course

As for the 0-60, you were right. I was thinking of the first-gen Prius, which was 13-14 seconds. New Prius and 1st gen Insight are pretty similar, now that I look at the numbers, but it's definitely a more fun ride.

Glad you're benefiting from a drop in fuel prices though. :thumbsup:

Is there an insurance premium for hybrid vs ICE? I've never even considered hybrid because for the vehicles I'm interested in, the premium alone for hybrid is way too high (I like Ford vehicles).

Jules makes a good point though, either I give the money to oil companies or I give them to the company I appreciate. Never considered that.

If I didn't replace my vehicles so often, I'd probably give it more thought.

Dunno about new ones, but I pay about $1200 per year total for myself and my wife on our '00 Insight and '95 F150. I'm in my mid 20's and she's a few years younger.

 

[halik]

You're probably right. I like my car though.

Still, the stock tires have very poor grip and handling gets a lot better if you swap them out. Space the rear track so it's not narrower than the front and that helps too.

http://vimeo.com/92800811
Stock Insight autocross ^




As for the 0-60, you were right. I was thinking of the first-gen Prius, which was 13-14 seconds. New Prius and 1st gen Insight are pretty similar, now that I look at the numbers, but it's definitely a more fun ride.

Glad you're benefiting from a drop in fuel prices though. :thumbsup:




Dunno about new ones, but I pay about $1200 per year total for myself and my wife on our '00 Insight and '95 F150. I'm in my mid 20's and she's a few years younger.

You should like it for what it is - a phenomenal commuter car that you literally can't beat even ~15 years later. I'm actually a HUGE fan of first gen insights; you get a ton of technology, unbeatable milage and manual transmission (yay!) for under $5K. Especially with the civic batt pack swaps now, the car is freaking awesome.

If I'm ever in a situation where I have to commute long distance, I will for sure get one*. It's no sports car though, even the tires are designed to minimize grip

*http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/4726826690.html this one I've had my eyes on for a while

 

[Yuriman]

Here's an undamaged one in Atlanta for ~3K.

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/ctd/4800561420.html

It's an exaggeration to say it handles like an SUV. With the same tires, it's actually better than a Civic of the same year.

But yes, fantastic money saver. Only thing I'd change is the seats.

 

[desura]

People are generally misinformed about hybrids. THey think that they are more complicated and therefore more unreliable than "regular" ICE cars.

That isn't true. The electric portion is dead simple and it takes wear off of the highly complicated ICE engine and its multitude of moving parts. Regenerative braking saves wear on brakes.

SO even ignoring gas savings, hybrids are less maintenance and less time at the gas pump.

 

[dud]

People are generally misinformed about hybrids. THey think that they are more complicated and therefore more unreliable than "regular" ICE cars.

That isn't true. The electric portion is dead simple and it takes wear off of the highly complicated ICE engine and its multitude of moving parts. Regenerative braking saves wear on brakes.

SO even ignoring gas savings, hybrids are less maintenance and less time at the gas pump.

As a non-hybrid owner I have been curious about their battery packs. How long do the battery packs used in hybrids usually last? How much do they cost plus installation to replace and do you consider that when comparing fuel savings against a regular vehicle with an ICE?

Thanks ...

 

[jlee]

You should like it for what it is - a phenomenal commuter car that you literally can't beat even ~15 years later. I'm actually a HUGE fan of first gen insights; you get a ton of technology, unbeatable milage and manual transmission (yay!) for under $5K. Especially with the civic batt pack swaps now, the car is freaking awesome.

If I'm ever in a situation where I have to commute long distance, I will for sure get one*. It's no sports car though, even the tires are designed to minimize grip

*http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/4726826690.html this one I've had my eyes on for a while

If I had a lengthy commute, I would seriously consider one as well.

 

[Yuriman]

As a non-hybrid owner I have been curious about their battery packs. How long do the battery packs used in hybrids usually last? How much do they cost plus installation to replace and do you consider that when comparing fuel savings against a regular vehicle with an ICE?

Thanks ...

In a Civic Hybrid or Insight, the pack can be refurbished for around $500 or replaced with a new one of larger capacity for around $2000, and will generally provide strong assist for at least 10 years. Some of the first hybrids still have healthy batteries, and are projected to last 20 years. Honda warrantied the Insight's batteries for 10 years, and in 2016 the last first-gen Insights will still be eligible for a free replacement.

As the pack gets close to dead, some hybrid systems will start to go. Assist will become limited, then disappear, though auto-stop will remain. If it suffers a catastrophic failure of some sort, auto stop will go and the car will switch to the backup starter, though the hybrid motor will still generate electricity for the DC-DC converter for the smaller 12v, even without the big HV battery. Without a HV battery, Honda's hybrids (sans the new system in the Accord) will still run like a conventional ICE car.


Toyota's batteries I would imagine are around the same price to replace/refurbish. I believe they're slightly higher capacity, but when they die you're not going anywhere. Toyota uses a smaller range of the battery's maximum capacity, something like 40-60% charge range vs the 20-80 the original Insight ECU came programmed with, so those batteries should last considerably longer.

 

[Tweak155]

Dunno about new ones, but I pay about $1200 per year total for myself and my wife on our '00 Insight and '95 F150. I'm in my mid 20's and she's a few years younger.

Unfortunately insurance rates are very area dependent. I moved a few cities over and my rates went up about $300/yr.