Hybrid/electric owners ... has the low(er) price of oil caused you 2nd thoughts about

[halik]

Here's an undamaged one in Atlanta for ~3K.

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/ctd/4800561420.html

It's an exaggeration to say it handles like an SUV. With the same tires, it's actually better than a Civic of the same year.

But yes, fantastic money saver. Only thing I'd change is the seats.

I'd probably take body damage and half the miles for less money.

 

[Yuriman]

Fair enough.

My cousin owns one (CVT) with 280k miles and the engine hasn't started burning oil yet (roughly same level even after 10k miles and it only holds 2.5 qts), only maintenance items so far have been oil/CVT fluid changes, spark plugs (at 150k) and a rear engine mount. It needs a few small things - the power lock motors are getting weak and the driver window switch doesn't return upright by itself anymore, but miles don't seem all that much of a concern to me given the drivetrain reliability. Wear on the engine is lower because it cruises under 2500rpm on the highway. 5MT is even lower.

Mine suffered the same issues, but RockAuto had the lock motors for $20 each, I 3d printed a new window switch for $6, and the rear mount was a 5 minute job and $90 from my local dealer. After owning one, I wouldn't think twice about picking one up with 200k+.

 

[Wuzup101]

Totally not true. My monthly gas bill was cut in half by going with a hybrid. Since I was looking at other vehicles in this price range or even higher the hybrid didn't really cost any more than any of the other cars I was considering and if you option up the ICE version of my car to the same level it costs the same as what I paid for my car. I probably could have gotten a discount on the ICE Camry XLE so it may have been a couple grand less but I've already saved (or not spent) nearly three grand on fuel in the nearly 2 years and 38,000 miles I've put on my car.

Even with gas prices at $3/gallon here I'm still spending $100 less per month on fuel than I was with my last car. Average 20mpg vs average 39mpg (actual numbers, not EPA estimates). It's a huge difference.

Your monthly gas bill was cut in half by going with a more efficient car (in your case a hybrid). It would still have been cut nearly in half by getting any number of fuel efficient ICE Cars. It's going to take quite a bit of driving to make up a few grand price difference if your hybrid only gets 39mpg.

Camry XLE (2.5L ICE):
MSRP: $32,130 (nicely loaded)
Truecar price: $27,897
rated 25/35

Camry Hybrid XLE:
MSRP: $35,460 (similar equippment)
Truecar price: $31,617
rated 40/38

Difference:
MSRP: $3,330
Truecar: $3,720
rated 15/3 in favor of the hybrid

Assuming $3/gal gas
40mpg city in the hybrid: $0.075/mile
25mpg city in the ICE: $0.12/mile
Difference: $0.045/mile
Miles required to make up $3,720: ~82,600

Assuming $3/gal gas
38mpg highway in the hybrid: $0.079/mile
35mpg highway in the ICE: $0.086/mile
Difference: $0.007/mile
Miles required to make up $3,720: ~531,000

Also one could argue that you'd be saving even more money if you had just kept your previous car at 20mpg. Your Camry has certainly depreciated more than $3000 since you bought it...

Note: not knocking your choice in cars or hybrids in general. I'm just saying that you are comparing a new car choice to your old car. 20mpg isn't efficient, especially if you are doing a lot of highway driving (and at 19k miles a year I expect that you are). My vette gets quite a bit better mileage than that. Heck my Evo gets better than 20 on the highway and it's fuel mileage is pretty laughable (16/22 factory rating). Too many people brag about how great their hybrid is compared to their last car. What they don't tell you is that their last "car" was actually a ford F350 V10 from quite a few years ago... and that they also drove around with a 5th wheel trailer most of the time. You aren't comparing the hybrid to an equivalent ICE that you could have purchased at that point. You are comparing it to something old.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Your monthly gas bill was cut in half by going with a more efficient car (in your case a hybrid). It would still have been cut nearly in half by getting any number of fuel efficient ICE Cars. It's going to take quite a bit of driving to make up a few grand price difference if your hybrid only gets 39mpg.

Camry XLE (2.5L ICE):
MSRP: $32,130 (nicely loaded)
Truecar price: $27,897
rated 25/35

Camry Hybrid XLE:
MSRP: $35,460 (similar equippment)
Truecar price: $31,617
rated 40/38

Difference:
MSRP: $3,330
Truecar: $3,720
rated 15/3 in favor of the hybrid

Assuming $3/gal gas
40mpg city in the hybrid: $0.075/mile
25mpg city in the ICE: $0.12/mile
Difference: $0.045/mile
Miles required to make up $3,720: ~82,600

Assuming $3/gal gas
38mpg highway in the hybrid: $0.079/mile
35mpg highway in the ICE: $0.086/mile
Difference: $0.007/mile
Miles required to make up $3,720: ~531,000

Also one could argue that you'd be saving even more money if you had just kept your previous car at 20mpg. Your Camry has certainly depreciated more than $3000 since you bought it...

Note: not knocking your choice in cars or hybrids in general. I'm just saying that you are comparing a new car choice to your old car. 20mpg isn't efficient, especially if you are doing a lot of highway driving (and at 19k miles a year I expect that you are). My vette gets quite a bit better mileage than that. Heck my Evo gets better than 20 on the highway and it's fuel mileage is pretty laughable (16/22 factory rating). Too many people brag about how great their hybrid is compared to their last car. What they don't tell you is that their last "car" was actually a ford F350 V10 from quite a few years ago... and that they also drove around with a 5th wheel trailer most of the time. You aren't comparing the hybrid to an equivalent ICE that you could have purchased at that point. You are comparing it to something old.

If most of my driving was highway you would have a point. But it isn't...

I drive 35 miles each way to and from work 5 days a week and it takes me about an hour or longer to travel that distance depending on traffic. There are stop lights, there is stop and go traffic and despite about 12 miles of that being on the freeway that may be stop and go as well (SoCal traffic).

I paid $28k for my XLE Hybrid and I was replacing my last car anyway. And much of my driving is city which is why I said my last car (a Nissan Maxima) averaged around 20mpg. I could expect maybe 16-17mpg out of a Corvette in the type of driving I do. An EVO would probably be about the same as the Vette and both of those require premium fuel. Not to mention those cars cost substantially more to buy, insure and operate. Oh, and gas was $4/gallon for regular unleaded when I bought my car.

I figured on 18,000 miles annually just in commuting (I actually put 22,000 miles on my car the first year I owned it) but 18,000 miles annually was what I was basing my purchase on.

At $4/gallon
Maxima: $300/month in actual fuel cost
Hybrid: $153/month in actual fuel cost
Camry ICE: $240/month in fuel cost (estimated)

I guess it just comes down to this: Do I want to give my money now to a company that is researching alternative fuels and efficiency or do I want to continue to give my money to the oil companies? Because it will take about 3 years for me to recoup the difference you posted (that isn't really there because I paid almost exactly the same as the truecar amount you posted for the ICE Camry XLE).

 

[Wuzup101]

If most of my driving was highway you would have a point. But it isn't...

I drive 35 miles each way to and from work 5 days a week and it takes me about an hour or longer to travel that distance depending on traffic. There are stop lights, there is stop and go traffic and despite about 12 miles of that being on the freeway that may be stop and go as well (SoCal traffic).

I paid $28k for my XLE Hybrid and I was replacing my last car anyway. And much of my driving is city which is why I said my last car (a Nissan Maxima) averaged around 20mpg. I could expect maybe 16-17mpg out of a Corvette in the type of driving I do. An EVO would probably be about the same as the Vette and both of those require premium fuel. Not to mention those cars cost substantially more to buy, insure and operate. Oh, and gas was $4/gallon for regular unleaded when I bought my car.

I figured on 18,000 miles annually just in commuting (I actually put 22,000 miles on my car the first year I owned it) but 18,000 miles annually was what I was basing my purchase on.

At $4/gallon
Maxima: $300/month in actual fuel cost
Hybrid: $153/month in actual fuel cost
Camry ICE: $240/month in fuel cost (estimated)

I guess it just comes down to this: Do I want to give my money now to a company that is researching alternative fuels and efficiency or do I want to continue to give my money to the oil companies? Because it will take about 3 years for me to recoup the difference you posted (that isn't really there because I paid almost exactly the same as the truecar amount you posted for the ICE Camry XLE).

They definitely shine the most in your situation (almost exclusively city driving) and that is an great use case. My only point was that there is always a trade-off. In your (somewhat extreme but not uncommon in many locations) situation the break even point is somewhere that you can realistically achieve. Despite you paying what I quoted from truecar (which was for a new car just as a reference point), I don't know of a single product line from any company where the base ICE engine is the same price as the hybrid version of the car. The hybrids are generally 2-5k more expensive. Hell even you said that you could have gotten an ICE equivalent for a few grand less in the first post that I quoted.

Obviously you can't control the cost of gas, and it'll almost certainly start climbing again soon. Hybrids are great, and someone has to support the technology. From a price standpoint it just isn't great in every situation.

 

[JulesMaximus]

They definitely shine the most in your situation (almost exclusively city driving) and that is an great use case. My only point was that there is always a trade-off. In your (somewhat extreme but not uncommon in many locations) situation the break even point is somewhere that you can realistically achieve. Despite you paying what I quoted from truecar (which was for a new car just as a reference point), I don't know of a single product line from any company where the base ICE engine is the same price as the hybrid version of the car. The hybrids are generally 2-5k more expensive. Hell even you said that you could have gotten an ICE equivalent for a few grand less in the first post that I quoted.

Obviously you can't control the cost of gas, and it'll almost certainly start climbing again soon. Hybrids are great, and someone has to support the technology. From a price standpoint it just isn't great in every situation.

Car was brand new when I bought it. MSRP was $33k but going through USAA I was able to get some pretty good discounts on it which brought it down almost $5k under MSRP. I didn't check to see what kind of discounts I could have gotten on the ICE version as I had run the numbers and decided that the city mileage advantage of the hybrid over the ICE made it a very attractive option.

I'm very happy with this car and I would buy it again today if I were in the market.

 

[Wuzup101]

Car was brand new when I bought it. MSRP was $33k but going through USAA I was able to get some pretty good discounts on it which brought it down almost $5k under MSRP. I didn't check to see what kind of discounts I could have gotten on the ICE version as I had run the numbers and decided that the city mileage advantage of the hybrid over the ICE made it a very attractive option.

I'm very happy with this car and I would buy it again today if I were in the market.

I would agree - with your use case I think a hybrid definitely makes sense.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I would agree - with your use case I think a hybrid definitely makes sense.

Thanks man.

I actually joined a pretty active Toyota Camry Hybrid forum (yes, there is one) and I asked a lot of questions about the car between the first time I test drove it and before buying it so I knew that for the type of driving I do that this car would be perfect. I had no interest in the Prius... it just felt cheap to me. I wanted something with nav and bluetooth, that was comfortable and had leather and power everything. The Camry checked all those boxes.

The only options my car doesn't have is the blind spot monitoring and the JLB package. Steering is pretty numb and it takes a bit of getting used to but I've put almost 38,000 miles on it already and it has been flawless. It actually feels weird to me now when I drive a car with a "normal" internal combustion engine.

We replaced my wife's car this year with a 2014 Lexus ES350 and didn't even consider the hybrid option because it is a lot more expensive in that car and she doesn't drive as much as I do. Plus, Lexus knocked quite a bit off the gas version making it even more favorable.

 

[Zorba]

The people I feel bad for are the CNG drivers. I know a few years ago CNG around here was around $0.90 per "gallon" now it is about 1.70 and gas at the same station is only 1.85. Considering you get the same mileage with CNG, but horrible range, plus a pretty large purchase premium. I am sure must CNG drivers are pretty upset.

 

[nerp]

2008. Summer crude was almost $150 a barrel for crude. Gas prices were over $4 a gallon. By November the bottom fell out and crude was $40 a barrel and retail prices were close to $1.40 a gallon.

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/2008-us-gas-price-year-in-review.html

But that was due to global economic malaise and the beginning of a serious recession. The cause of the current gas price drop is a different story.

 

[desura]

The thing about the battery packs is that replacing them is about the same as a transmission. Since the hybrid system reduces wear on the transmission, it ought to even out.

 

[Imported]

I had a 2012 Prius earlier this year. I have no regrets selling it for my current car.

 

[nedfunnell]

I am considering buying a used Prius, and all the more so now. Cheap gas will likely depress prices in the used market as well as new. I was planning on buying one anyway. I could get a $6000 25mpg car that meets my needs or a $6000 50mpg car that meets my needs. Why would I get the 25? I'm not buying new, so the premium is not there. Maybe an average $6k Prius has more miles on it than the average $6k conventional car. So what? The kind of person that drive a Prius isn't likely to put hard miles on it, and they last for a long time anyway. I think I'll wait until this cheap gas has been hitting the market for a few months, then see how the market is looking.

Edit: Plus, I think gas is going to go up later. I think the Saudis are playing a long game with this trick- selling cheap now to slow down development of difficult oil here and dry up the easy stuff, then cut supply later, then they'll have a nice case of high prices and people used to consuming a lot of it due to low prices. There are plenty of crazy conspiracy theories out there, but that one seems to make the most sense to me.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Unless gas drops below $1 a gallon, Ill stick with something decently economical... (I dont have hybrid/electric, but, fuel economy is still important since prices are anything but stable...

 

[dud]

After reading most of the posts in this thread I've found that it all comes down to your own needs and driving habits. MANY people here have posted that they have totally different driving habits than I do. Some have described long commutes using the LA interstate system (my condolences). I have driven the I-10, the 405, 605, etc. to the point where I have decided that it is inhuman to do so.

In my case a hybrid makes no economic sense. If I were to purchase one I would lose money against a car with an ICE. In my case hybrids fail to offer an advantage over an ICE. If you do own a hybrid it seems that you may fit into two categories: 1) Your commute is of such a length that owning a hybrid makes sense. All I can say is that you have my condolences. The last thing that I want to do with my 24 hours/day is spend it on the road with others who feel the same way. 2) You have environmental concerns/beliefs and you may also despise the oil producing countries. Gentlemen/ladies ... I salute you.


To each his own ...

 

[MongGrel]

I'd always seen hybrids were kinda of a BS thing to begin with, so it's a bit of a moot point.

 

[Yuriman]

I'd always seen hybrids were kinda of a BS thing to begin with, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Does not compute.

^ Flat, level ground

EDIT: Don't mind that I didn't have my seatbelt on ^^

 

[Zor Prime]

Still happy with my 2011 Insight.

140k miles.

It's a tank.

Damn good car and I flog the ever-living piss out of it. Just because it's a slow car doesn't mean it has to be driven slow.

At current gas prices, would I do it again?

... Might have got a Civic instead. Not really sure. Not really that big of a difference in MPG for me though since I spend 90% of my time on the Interstate.

 

[Yuriman]

In my mind, there are two major reasons for hybridizing a car, discounting the plug-in kind:

1. You can seriously downsize the engine, while still keeping enough power to pass and accelerate reasonably.

Running at high load (low vacuum) is most efficient. With a big engine, to maintain speed and not accelerate it's necessary to keep the throttle plate almost closed. With a hybrid, the engine is small enough that you can nearly run WoT on a level road and maintain constant speed. When passing, the electric motor comes on and gives the acceleration. Additionally, Toyota's Prius engine uses something similar to the Atkinson cycle, which gives it nearly the same volumetric efficiency as some of the best diesels on the road, with the downside of losing a lot of low-end torque, which is made up for by electric assist at low RPM.

Insight G1 - 1.0 liter
Insight G2 / Civic Hybrid - 1.3 liter
Prius - 1.5 liter / 1.8 liter with Atkinson cycle

~~

2. It allows for the recovery and prevention of lost energy.

When slowing down, the hybrid motor brakes the car and fills up the batteries, storing energy that would otherwise have been used to convert brake pads into brake dust.

When stopped, a hybrid shuts off its engine. Although it's very possible to do "auto-stop" with a conventional car (and some do now, e.g. F150 ecoboost) traditional starter motors are not designed for that kind of duty cycle and must be upsized. With a better starter, you may as well provide assist with it unless it's on a particularly large engine.

Hybrid motors are more efficient at generating electricity than traditional alternators, and eliminate the need for this accessory.

Hybrids typically have larger electrical systems, and can more easily support electric power steering, electric water pumps, electric air conditioning, which are all more efficient than their conventional belt-driven varients.

 

[bamx2]

How long should it be before there is a substantial drop in prices for a used Prius ?

 

[soccerballtux]

Does not compute.

^ Flat, level ground

EDIT: Don't mind that I didn't have my seatbelt on ^^

you didn't have cruise on. Instantaneous consumption does that when you let off gas. set cruise and try again

 

[billbobaggins87]

havent read the post since first post. However, 2010 prius getting on avg about 51 mpg on summer tires 46 on winter. despite the lower gas we would still buy another. Lower prices just mean cheaper tank fill up nothing lost in value of car.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

you didn't have cruise on. Instantaneous consumption does that when you let off gas. set cruise and try again

Assuming it is like any other insight, it should be 93mpg over the past 15 miles. Not instant mpg.

 

[Yuriman]

Assuming it is like any other insight, it should be 93mpg over the past 15 miles. Not instant mpg.

That's correct, 93mpg for the trip, instant consumption is shown by the bar at the bottom. This was on I-10 outside of Jacksonville.

 

[WackyDan]

I'm still planning on buying a Tesla Model 3 if they are released in 2017. This low gas price thing is just a fluke...

More importantly, my intent to buy my wife the tesla 3 is based on her use and not cost of gas or politics. Furthermore it is likely that the simpler drive train on the tesla will require less maintenance and less hassle over all.

She drives perhaps 30-40 miles a day. * when she even drives anywhere. An electric is perfect for us.