Hybrid Maintenance (Used car purchase thoughts)

[AgaBoogaBoo]

I currently drive an 08 Civic LX and need to get a new car - the current one will be going to a family member.

I like my car, the cost, and gas mileage. This means that my goal is really to just get an inexpensive Civic. I was originally looking for something lightly used that likely came off of a lease.

From what I'm seeing, one of these 08-11 Civics (sedan, automatic) will run me $12-13.5k. At the same time, the hybrid models seem to be roughly similar in used price. This caught my eye, but I also don't have any experience with a hybrid's maintenance.

My questions:
1) In addition to everything a regular car has with routine maintenance (oil changes, brake pads, maybe timing belts and clutches) and semi-large expenditures (transmission rebuild potentially every 200k miles, tires, etc), what does a hybrid bring? A battery replaced when it's worn out and maybe additional work on the electric motor and/or parts related to that? I'd ballpark that the one I am looking at would have 50-70k miles for the hybrid and I'd like to keep it for 10 years, 100k miles more.

2) When buying a hybrid, what should I look out for? My gut is that the battery's condition is one of the biggest items.

3) For someone who is value conscious and drives only 750-900 miles per month, is this immediately a wrong choice? The hybrid gets maybe 44mpg and the regular car gets maybe 30mpg (both city).

I'm enticed mostly because the price of these hybrids seems comparable to a regular car, but the questions above should help me figure out if I'm being deceived by a low price but more future maintenance.

 

[tortillasoup]

if you're going to get a hybrid, I'd get a Toyota Hybrid. Toyota's Hybrids seem to be very reliable assuming you take care of maintenance and you follow up on all TSBs/recalls, etc. I'm actually looking to get a higher mileage Prius for similar reasons, though my price point is around $5k and it will likely be clocking in over 200K miles.

I like the hybrids because they should last longer though if you keep your car parked a lot of the time, you probably will want to disable the SmartKey system if you can as it's a major parasitic draw and will kill your starter battery really quickly. If you can get one w/o the SmartKey, that's even better.

 

[JulesMaximus]

The battery is really the only thing that will wear out on the hybrid. I've never heard of any of the electrical components of a hybrid needing replacement. Otherwise the maintenance should be even lower than an ICE only vehicle. My Camry Hybrid doesn't even have any belts. Everything is electric.

It drives the same as any other car... except that it gets great gas mileage.

 

[Mide]

Yeah I used to have several Civics and now I'm in a Prius. They are the same in terms of general maintenance and I haven't had anything brake on the Prius. I get 48MPG summer and 40MPG in winter with studded winter tires. Besides oil changes and 1 tranny fluid change at 30K, no problems.

One thing to ponder is that the Civic hybrids can't run fully on the electric motor while the Prius can, albeit for short spurts only. That's why the Honda engine is called IMA (Integrated Motor "Assist"). So the good thing is that it does have an engine shutoff feature when stopped at a light, but the motor kicks in quickly after starting up while the Prius will run on electric for a while if you turtle the accelerator. All this helps with fuel economy and decreased use of the gas engine.

I'd check out Craigslist to see if there are any deals for a used Prius around 80K 2007ish for around $11K. FYI I bought my Prius earlier this year 2010 36k for $19K. So you can use that to compare prices.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Yeah I used to have several Civics and now I'm in a Prius. They are the same in terms of general maintenance and I haven't had anything brake on the Prius. I get 48MPG summer and 40MPG in winter with studded winter tires. Besides oil changes and 1 tranny fluid change at 30K, no problems.

One thing to ponder is that the Civic hybrids can't run fully on the electric motor while the Prius can, albeit for short spurts only. That's why the Honda engine is called IMA (Integrated Motor "Assist"). So the good thing is that it does have an engine shutoff feature when stopped at a light, but the motor kicks in quickly after starting up while the Prius will run on electric for a while if you turtle the accelerator. All this helps with fuel economy and decreased use of the gas engine.

I'd check out Craigslist to see if there are any deals for a used Prius around 80K 2007ish for around $11K. FYI I bought my Prius earlier this year 2010 36k for $19K. So you can use that to compare prices.

I love the Toyota hybrid powertrain in that you can cruise along in stop and go traffic for miles on electric only. I was cruising through Hollywood early one Saturday morning last summer with my son and we stopped to get some kleenex and water before driving home, we drove the length of Hollywood Blvd, into downtown LA and then got on the 5 freeway and drove all the way to San Diego with the cruise set to 60mph on the freeway and averaged almost 48mpg.

 

[tweakmonkey]

I've owned a Honda Insight hybrid along with a few friends who also had these cars, I can assure that around the 10-year/150k mile mark the original hybrid battery will fail. Mine failed, a friend's failed. The car still ran fine, just lacked some acceleration and auto-stop. I replaced mine for $1200 I think it was, which was for all new NiMH cells. I've put ~50k miles on it since. Other than that one failure, my Honda had nothing fail since it was new (200k miles now). I went the Honda route because I much prefer the way Hondas drive, and my hybrid is a 5-speed manual transmission.

I don't know much about the Prius, but the companies that we bought our replacement batteries from DO sell the Prius replacements so I'm sure people have them fail. At the end of the day it's the same technology and simply doesn't last forever. But I'd expect it to still last 10 years / 150-200k miles or more depending on how it was treated.

 

[desura]

From what I"ve read, you should enjoy even greater reliability with a hybrid as opposed to a regular ICE used car. Less wear on brakes is a big one, but also I think the 2010 lacks a timing belt or something? Prius 2010-current model. And there should be a little less wear on transmission because you're not going to be gunning it from stop lights.

 

[Mide]

From what I"ve read, you should enjoy even greater reliability with a hybrid as opposed to a regular ICE used car. Less wear on brakes is a big one, but also I think the 2010 lacks a timing belt or something? Prius 2010-current model. And there should be a little less wear on transmission because you're not going to be gunning it from stop lights.

Yes the 2010+ Prius has an electric water pump and AC compressor. Also has a "chain" that never needs to be serviced (nobody has posted a replacement in forums)

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/gen-iii-2010-prius-9445.html

 

[nwo]

I'm driving a 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid with 180k+ miles on it. Still going strong on the first battery. I am impressed.

 

[ponyo]

Can you leave the hybrid on battery tender like a regular car? Does that wear out the battery faster? I'm curious too because like the OP, I'm considering buying a hybrid car. But the car might sit for a week or two between drives and used mostly for short distances so I'm wondering if that will greatly impact the battery life. If I get a hybrid, it will be the new Accord or the Prius.

 

[tortillasoup]

You can put a battery tender on the 12v Lead acid battery. If you keep your car parked outside, you may even be able to attach a small solar panel + charge controller (so you don't cook your battery) and forgo the use of a battery tender. I recommend the batteryminder 1500 as a good battery tender if you don't go the solar route as it desulfates batteries (prolongs their life), has quick disconnect and it's fairly cheap ($50).

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Thanks for the posts everyone. Given what a few here said and what I've read around at other places, and also my small amount of driving, I decided to pass on a hybrid.

I ended up getting a 2010 Civic LX Sedan (with automatic transmission) for $12.4k that has 38k miles and a new set of tires, batteries, and generally cleaned up by the dealer.

Should anyone else in the market for one come across the post, my only recommendation is to seek a competitive price. I knocked off roughly $600 by bringing in comparable car offers even if they were 100-150 miles away, because I argued that I have no issue driving 2 hours for something I'll keep for 10 years.

 

[jagec]

Can you leave the hybrid on battery tender like a regular car? Does that wear out the battery faster? I'm curious too because like the OP, I'm considering buying a hybrid car. But the car might sit for a week or two between drives and used mostly for short distances so I'm wondering if that will greatly impact the battery life. If I get a hybrid, it will be the new Accord or the Prius.

The lead-acid chemistry needs to have a battery tender or regular recharges, or it will self-discharge and the plates will become sulfated, leading to a permanent loss of capacity. Keeping lead-acid batteries topped up prolongs their life, high depths of discharge and prolonged time at partial capacity shortens it.

The lithium-ion chemistry has lower self-discharge rates and does not sulfate, so even if it discharges capacity is not lost. Lithium-ions should be left at around half charge for long-term storage (which is where hybrids tend to maintain their batteries). Leaving them stored at a full charge, or (worse) almost empty, will age them.

NiCd is even more robust, and can basically be allowed to drop all the way down to 0 volts and still recover.

IIRC, the hybrids can transfer power between their primary lead-acid batteries and the NiCd/li-ion pack, so you don't need a battery tender at all for reasonable storage lengths. For months to years, i would add the tender.

 

[NutBucket]

I don't know of any hybrids that use NiCd. I know mine uses NiMH and most current ones use Li-ion.

 

[jagec]

I don't know of any hybrids that use NiCd. I know mine uses NiMH and most current ones use Li-ion.

Good point, I was just comparing battery technologies. People make fun of my NiCd drill, but I actually prefer the older technology for things that get neglected a lot.

 

[Uhtrinity]

I've owned a Honda Insight hybrid along with a few friends who also had these cars, I can assure that around the 10-year/150k mile mark the original hybrid battery will fail. Mine failed, a friend's failed. The car still ran fine, just lacked some acceleration and auto-stop. I replaced mine for $1200 I think it was, which was for all new NiMH cells. I've put ~50k miles on it since. Other than that one failure, my Honda had nothing fail since it was new (200k miles now). I went the Honda route because I much prefer the way Hondas drive, and my hybrid is a 5-speed manual transmission.

I don't know much about the Prius, but the companies that we bought our replacement batteries from DO sell the Prius replacements so I'm sure people have them fail. At the end of the day it's the same technology and simply doesn't last forever. But I'd expect it to still last 10 years / 150-200k miles or more depending on how it was treated.

Are you on the Insightcentral.net forums? Great source of information on everything Insight.

 

[tweakmonkey]

Are you on the Insightcentral.net forums? Great source of information on everything Insight.

Yep