Hydrogen and the future....WTF?

[WarDemon666]

me too

keep it coming

very interesting

 

[phonemonkey]

Originally posted by: warcrow
Hrm, didnt realize the 10,000 mile refule point. But, what about the extra carbons that get cute lose into the air during the hydrogen creation process? I'm being serious, not a smarta$$.

If an alternative energy source is used (ie: small solar stations providing the electricity to break down the water) there wouldn't be any additional pollution released. I think the general concensus is that even if natural gas or oil is used to help split the water, it's still better for the environment than all of the cars and trucks on the road.

 

[warcrow]

true true....but this all takes time for effect, right?

 

[ironcrotch]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: warcrow
A friend and I are having a debate on Hydrogen and cars. Let me get this straight?

Hydrogen can be acquired by two means:

- You extract it via hydrocarbons resulting in a lot carbons expelled into the air.

- The second way, you split H2O which requires a lot of electricity, only resulting in more work for coal-burning plants which completely removes all the benefits of the "clean" fuel.

- Hydrogen leaks a lot and turns steel brittle.

So riddle me this, Batman. Why in the hell does anyone think this is a GOOD idea for cars? There has to be some company lined up to benefit huge from this, right? Anyone else knowledgeable about this?

BMW thinks it's good.

Therefore it must be good.

They thought Bangle was a good designer too.

 

[0roo0roo]

wired magazine had a thing with nice graphs and stuff a few months back. atleast i think it was wired...
after factoring costs/energy costs of generation/transportation etc hydrogen isn't all that much better. esp if u use it in a combustion engine of course.

 

[phonemonkey]

Originally posted by: warcrow
true true....but this all takes time for effect, right?

The basic infrastructure will of course take time, but after you get that down, and people start buying more hydrogen powered cars (or start making alot of noise about wanting hydrogen cars), it'll snowball on itself and grow.

Well, at least that's my opinion.

Personally, I'd have killed to have had a car that would have even gone 1,000 miles without having to fill up in the past week (moved to the new house, and it's about 50 miles round trip for each load to the new house). I drive a honda civic, and even with my good gas mileage, I've had to fill up several times.

 

[Calin]

Originally posted by: crazeinc
Hydrogen cars are extremely inefficient at this point in the game. Hopefully somebody will figure it out sooner than later so we don't have to invade any more countries in the middle east

Hydrogen cars are not less efficient than gas or diesel ones. It is just that one can pack alot less hydrogen in a fuel tank sized container (energy wise) than the gas or diesel fuel (something like 10x less)

Calin

 

[Calin]

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1

Originally posted by: Mo0o
it's not a good idea right now, hydrogen is extremely combustible so if there was a car accident it would well.. suck.

except that the second hydrogen hit the air it would become so "diluted" that there would be VERY little possibility.

and gas isnt combustible???

isnt it being combustible the whole point of using it in an internal COMBUSTION engine?

MIKE

Hydrogen will rise much faster than vaporised gas, so it would be less dangerous in the later sequences of the accident..

 

[Calin]

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
[
http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/article_255.shtml there is one liquid hydrogen car in that list. but it happens to be a fuel cell and not an ICE

http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/article_391.shtml more info on how liquid h2 will be used.

http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/article_534.shtml bmw is banking on liquid h2.

And if you read through those completely you'll see they are talking about "a liquid fuel containing hydrogen" (i.e. propane or other hydrocarbons) and not pure hydrogen liquid.

To liquify hydrogen at room temperature takes 150,000 psi. I worked out this is the same as below 64 miles of water -- does it even get that deep anywhere? What kind of container would you suggest to withstand this pressure, without the container itself liquifying or reacting with the concentrated hydrogen?

The deepest point underwater is at about 11km (like 6.5 miles) deep

 

[lobadobadingdong]

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1

Originally posted by: Mo0o
it's not a good idea right now, hydrogen is extremely combustible so if there was a car accident it would well.. suck.

except that the second hydrogen hit the air it would become so "diluted" that there would be VERY little possibility.

and gas isnt combustible???

isnt it being combustible the whole point of using it in an internal COMBUSTION engine?

MIKE

The explosive power of gasoline and hydrogen are nearly identicle. when was the last time you saw a car wreck and the tank actually exploded? fuel tanks (both current gasoline and current automotive test cars hydrogen tanks) are designed to keep the fuel from leaking when in an accident. everyone thinks hindinburg when they hear the word hydrogen :roll:

 

[NuclearNed]

Here is an interesting article from cnn I read a long time ago: link

 

[gigapet]

http://www.utcfuelcells.com/utcpower/index.htm

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: phonemonkey

Originally posted by: warcrow
Hrm, didnt realize the 10,000 mile refule point. But, what about the extra carbons that get cute lose into the air during the hydrogen creation process? I'm being serious, not a smarta$$.

If an alternative energy source is used (ie: small solar stations providing the electricity to break down the water) there wouldn't be any additional pollution released. I think the general concensus is that even if natural gas or oil is used to help split the water, it's still better for the environment than all of the cars and trucks on the road.

How many solar panels would it take to make enough hydrogen to power the 218 million cars in the US?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

I think the next major fuel is going to be alcohol. It's possible to get alcohol from fermenting and distilling various plant matter, which means it's renewable. We know how to make an engine run on alcohol (and we're damned good at it). It's concievably possible to make most vehicles run on alcohol with only minor modifications. (about what was required for the R12 -> R134a conversions)

Sure, we're still creating CO2, but then again, we'd also be making alot of things that suck up CO2, like plants. Last I checked, plants dig lots of CO2.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
I think the next major fuel is going to be alcohol. It's possible to get alcohol from fermenting and distilling various plant matter, which means it's renewable. We know how to make an engine run on alcohol (and we're damned good at it). It's concievably possible to make most vehicles run on alcohol with only minor modifications. (about what was required for the R12 -> R134a conversions)

Sure, we're still creating CO2, but then again, we'd also be making alot of things that suck up CO2, like plants. Last I checked, plants dig lots of CO2.

A crop failure due to weather could put a little crimp in that plan.

 

[FFactory0x]

Um. Didnt the Hidenburg blow up cause of hydrogen

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
I think the next major fuel is going to be alcohol. It's possible to get alcohol from fermenting and distilling various plant matter, which means it's renewable. We know how to make an engine run on alcohol (and we're damned good at it). It's concievably possible to make most vehicles run on alcohol with only minor modifications. (about what was required for the R12 -> R134a conversions)

Sure, we're still creating CO2, but then again, we'd also be making alot of things that suck up CO2, like plants. Last I checked, plants dig lots of CO2.

A crop failure due to weather could put a little crimp in that plan.

You do realize, that there's more than one person who grows stuff.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
I think the next major fuel is going to be alcohol. It's possible to get alcohol from fermenting and distilling various plant matter, which means it's renewable. We know how to make an engine run on alcohol (and we're damned good at it). It's concievably possible to make most vehicles run on alcohol with only minor modifications. (about what was required for the R12 -> R134a conversions)

Sure, we're still creating CO2, but then again, we'd also be making alot of things that suck up CO2, like plants. Last I checked, plants dig lots of CO2.

A crop failure due to weather could put a little crimp in that plan.

You do realize, that there's more than one person who grows stuff.

A weather event, such a severe drought, which affects North America would present a problem. IIRC, the amount of plant material needed to get the required amounts of alcohol would be very large.

 

[NuclearNed]

Originally posted by: FFactory0x
Um. Didnt the Hidenburg blow up cause of hydrogen

Read the article I linked. Hydrogen is really no more dangerous than gasoline.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

The Hindenburg blew up because they painted it with rocket fuel.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: FFactory0x
Um. Didnt the Hidenburg blow up cause of hydrogen

The Hindenberg didn't blow up, the skin flared off and everyone that was riding in it that didn't jump out when the skin caught fire survived and most of them were unhurt. Hindengerg caught fire because the skin was painted with what we now use as rocket fuel. 95% of the hydrogen was vented harmlessly after the skin ruptured.

 

[FFactory0x]

Really? Interesting. I never knew that

 

[SaturnX]

There's also Ethanol.. which burns slightly cleaner than gasoline, although it's currently more expensive to obtain than gasoline...

--Mark

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: FFactory0x
Really? Interesting. I never knew that

 

[rgwalt]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
I think the next major fuel is going to be alcohol. It's possible to get alcohol from fermenting and distilling various plant matter, which means it's renewable. We know how to make an engine run on alcohol (and we're damned good at it). It's concievably possible to make most vehicles run on alcohol with only minor modifications. (about what was required for the R12 -> R134a conversions)

Sure, we're still creating CO2, but then again, we'd also be making alot of things that suck up CO2, like plants. Last I checked, plants dig lots of CO2.

Currently there is some question as to the efficiency of using plant matter to create alcohol. In other words, it may take as much energy to farm the crops as you get out of the crops in the form of methanol/ethanol.

Long term there is really only two ways to go... solar and fusion. If we can get fusion working to the point where we have a virtually unlimited supply of energy, then we can make any hydrocarbon we want from plant matter. It may be inefficient, but who cares?

R