hypocritical christians

[petrek]

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and where-in ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:? 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

care to elaborate? I've been using verses to back up what I'm saying...but you're just quoting it...excellant verses btw.

 

[busmaster11]

It appears I'm late to the party. *sigh*

Weezergirl, I claim to be a Christian, yet I probably do a couple things on your list. Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't really think so, but I wouldn't argue with you if you say I am, because you will have a point. In fact, thats why a lot of my friends don't goto church, - because they see people like myself as hypocrites, and think, whats the point?

This is what they're missing. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be sinless, only that you follow a God that is. In fact, if I was sinless, I don't need to go to church at all - I would already be saved according to the Bible. You can draw the line or definition of a sin anywhere, drinking, sex, swearing, etc... But God draws it at the slightest mean thought, or the smalled white lie. So no matter what you consider a sin, God's standards are higher, and even a single one makes you a sinner and undeserving of being with Him in heaven. Thats why we need to be saved, according to the Bible.

A lot of Christians are indeed Christians in name only, and if those are the people you are referring to, you have a point. But a real Christian doesn't play games with God. They don't sin one day, think that as long as they repend and accept Jesus as their savior the next, its okay. Both types of Christians will commit sins each day, but the latter will make a genuine and concerted effort to recognize the sin and make amends for it. - Even if he commits it over and over again.

Weezergirl - we're all human beings, and we'll always give in to temptation, Christian or not. Christians will always fail - but the true ones will get up and try again. And as a Christian, I believe all Christians are commissioned to becoming living examples for others and to spread the word of God, np matter how many times we fail. And if you are frustrated by the Christians around you, keep in mind that they have failed you and God, but God has failed no one.

 

[oLLie]

Originally posted by: busmaster11
It appears I'm late to the party. *sigh*

Weezergirl, I claim to be a Christian, yet I probably do a couple things on your list. Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't really think so, but I wouldn't argue with you if you say I am, because you will have a point. In fact, thats why a lot of my friends don't goto church, - because they see people like myself as hypocrites, and think, whats the point?

This is what they're missing. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be sinless, only that you follow a God that is. In fact, if I was sinless, I don't need to go to church at all - I would already be saved according to the Bible. You can draw the line or definition of a sin anywhere, drinking, sex, swearing, etc... But God draws it at the slightest mean thought, or the smalled white lie. So no matter what you consider a sin, God's standards are higher, and even a single one makes you a sinner and undeserving of being with Him in heaven. Thats why we need to be saved, according to the Bible.

A lot of Christians are indeed Christians in name only, and if those are the people you are referring to, you have a point. But a real Christian doesn't play games with God. They don't sin one day, think that as long as they repend and accept Jesus as their savior the next, its okay. Both types of Christians will commit sins each day, but the latter will make a genuine and concerted effort to recognize the sin and make amends for it. - Even if he commits it over and over again.

Weezergirl - we're all human beings, and we'll always give in to temptation, Christian or not. Christians will always fail - but the true ones will get up and try again. And as a Christian, I believe all Christians are commissioned to becoming living examples for others and to spread the word of God, np matter how many times we fail. And if you are frustrated by the Christians around you, keep in mind that they have failed you and God, but God has failed no one.

So basically you are saying Christians are forgiven for their sins, regardless of whether they make even the slightest attempt not to commit the same sin again. Weezergirl never makes the argument that the definition of being Christian is to be sinless; she makes the argument that part of being a Christian is to ask forgiveness for your sins, and a part of that forgiveness is a genuine ATTEMPT not to commit the sin again. She then points out that it is fairly obvious that many people do not make ANY attempt, or at least not a GENUINE attempt not to commit the sin again. Explain how that is not hypocrisy.

So many replies in this thread just sound like a huge cop-out to me.

My half-joking (half-serious...) paraphrasing of some of the replies in this thread:
"It doesn't matter if you try... just that you try to try"

Dumb it down a little further? Sure: "It doesn't matter."

 

[przero]

GtPrOjEcTX - #5 would not be quite correct.

According to the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I think that once saved always saved is the only possible answer. Faith in Jesus Christ results in a changed life, never again to return to unbelief.

 

[przero]

oLLie - The point is once you truly accept Jesus Christ into your heart as Lord and Savior, you will ALWAYS try not to sin. You will strive to follow Him in everything you do. But that doesn't mean that you are no longer immune from the addictions of the world. As soon as you begin to bear witness to Him, Satan will begin to put temptation after temptation in your life. Many Christians slip and fall, only to be lifted later by their faith. In Luke 22:30-31 Jesus told Peter " And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." He sifts us also. But through faith in Jesus and what he did at Calvary, we overcome Sin.

 

[KokomoGST]

Originally posted by: oLLie

Originally posted by: busmaster11
It appears I'm late to the party. *sigh*

Weezergirl - we're all human beings, and we'll always give in to temptation, Christian or not. Christians will always fail - but the true ones will get up and try again. And as a Christian, I believe all Christians are commissioned to becoming living examples for others and to spread the word of God, np matter how many times we fail. And if you are frustrated by the Christians around you, keep in mind that they have failed you and God, but God has failed no one.

So basically you are saying Christians are forgiven for their sins, regardless of whether they make even the slightest attempt not to commit the same sin again. Weezergirl never makes the argument that the definition of being Christian is to be sinless; she makes the argument that part of being a Christian is to ask forgiveness for your sins, and a part of that forgiveness is a genuine ATTEMPT not to commit the sin again. She then points out that it is fairly obvious that many people do not make ANY attempt, or at least not a GENUINE attempt not to commit the sin again. Explain how that is not hypocrisy.

So many replies in this thread just sound like a huge cop-out to me.

My half-joking (half-serious...) paraphrasing of some of the replies in this thread:
"It doesn't matter if you try... just that you try to try"

Dumb it down a little further? Sure: "It doesn't matter."

Well, (also late to the party)... ok, the thread and most people already said lots of points...
It may seem like a giant cop-out and for some people it is a giant cop-out... but then Jesus,

Matt 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

James also talks a lot about this difficult to describe relationship of "faith and works." Ok, the question remains about repetitive sin... I mean we all lie or covet or other stuff like that just by thinking it. It's the grace of God and the Holy Spirit working in you that gives you strength to carry on toward the goal of becoming what Christ intended. The goal isn't reached until your time here is up and even then you are only blameless/sinless in the eyes of God because of the blood of Christ shed on the cross. Read James and ask questions about it... Christianity has theology, most other religions don't. You CAN question the Bible... it has answers and we don't stone you if you ask questions (at least we shouldn't).

The next logical step in the discussion is prolly, "what about those that repent just before they die?" Someone else take that... I gotta eat dinner.

I'm just going to ignore the whole side-discussion about religion as a set of rules... I don't think Christianity is a religion anywho, man didn't invent/construct Christ (if you believe He is God).

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: oLLie

Originally posted by: busmaster11
It appears I'm late to the party. *sigh*

Weezergirl, I claim to be a Christian, yet I probably do a couple things on your list. Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't really think so, but I wouldn't argue with you if you say I am, because you will have a point. In fact, thats why a lot of my friends don't goto church, - because they see people like myself as hypocrites, and think, whats the point?

This is what they're missing. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be sinless, only that you follow a God that is. In fact, if I was sinless, I don't need to go to church at all - I would already be saved according to the Bible. You can draw the line or definition of a sin anywhere, drinking, sex, swearing, etc... But God draws it at the slightest mean thought, or the smalled white lie. So no matter what you consider a sin, God's standards are higher, and even a single one makes you a sinner and undeserving of being with Him in heaven. Thats why we need to be saved, according to the Bible.

A lot of Christians are indeed Christians in name only, and if those are the people you are referring to, you have a point. But a real Christian doesn't play games with God. They don't sin one day, think that as long as they repend and accept Jesus as their savior the next, its okay. Both types of Christians will commit sins each day, but the latter will make a genuine and concerted effort to recognize the sin and make amends for it. - Even if he commits it over and over again.

Weezergirl - we're all human beings, and we'll always give in to temptation, Christian or not. Christians will always fail - but the true ones will get up and try again. And as a Christian, I believe all Christians are commissioned to becoming living examples for others and to spread the word of God, np matter how many times we fail. And if you are frustrated by the Christians around you, keep in mind that they have failed you and God, but God has failed no one.

So basically you are saying Christians are forgiven for their sins, regardless of whether they make even the slightest attempt not to commit the same sin again. Weezergirl never makes the argument that the definition of being Christian is to be sinless; she makes the argument that part of being a Christian is to ask forgiveness for your sins, and a part of that forgiveness is a genuine ATTEMPT not to commit the sin again. She then points out that it is fairly obvious that many people do not make ANY attempt, or at least not a GENUINE attempt not to commit the sin again. Explain how that is not hypocrisy.

So many replies in this thread just sound like a huge cop-out to me.

My half-joking (half-serious...) paraphrasing of some of the replies in this thread:
"It doesn't matter if you try... just that you try to try"

Dumb it down a little further? Sure: "It doesn't matter."

I have made the point that that attempt not to commit the same sin is part of what makes a Christian genuine. See my third paragraph.

Again, you may state that people are hypocrites, and Christians have failed God, but it is God that uses us to spread the Gospel to people, knowing full well we are imperfect and prone to failure. They are lessons and trials and challenges to all of us, the Christian and the non-Christian.

 

[jyates]

Take a look at Romans Chp. 6


Verse 1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

We are saved by God's grace. Grace = undeserved favor that God gives us because he is merciful as well as just.

Do we keep sinning on purpose just because we are covered by God's grace? NO


Verse 2. God forbid, How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

When we are saved we are "dead" to sin. Which doesn't mean that we don't ever sin again but we are saved
from the consequences of our natural born sin which is eternal separation from God.

Jesus took our sins upon him and died for us on the cross. He paid the sin debt for us on that hill called Calvary
almost 2000 years ago.

When we come to the point that we understand we are going to be separated from God for eternity (Hell) and that
nothing we can do of ourselves (works or being "good") it looks pretty dismal, but the good news is that even
though God is just he is also meriful and Jesus came to take our place and it's through accepting his free gift of
what he did on that cross we can restore that relationship with God.

When we are saved we are given the Holy Spirit that indwells us and convicts us when we sin against God. We can either repent of those sins which repent is that we agree with God that we have sinnned or we can harden our hearts and even though saved
from an eternal separation (Hell) from God we don't live the abundant live that God has in store for us when we follow him.

When we claim to be a "Christian" and we keep on sinning we are making light of what Jesus did for us
on that cross.

Christians aren't "sinless" but we should be "sinning less" because of being spiritually equipped to
live every day.

And as with any group....you are going to have those who wear the name tag "Christian" either because their family
history or it makes them "feel good" but wearing the name tag and living it is 2 different things.

I read alot of people who write in the threads about "judging"......I certainly don't "judge" anyone because I have no
right nor power to do so, but I can observe and look for the "fruit" in their lives and the Bible clearly states that those
who are "real" will exhibit fruit and a "tree" that doesn't produce fruit is good for nothing but to be cut down and
thrown into the fire.

.A newly planted young tree doesn't grow fruit it's first year of life and it may take several years before it can.
But with care and pruning and watering it should reach the age of bearing fruit. Christians are like that also.
We are watered by God's word and sometimes things come into our lives that "prune" us and all the while we
are becoming more and more mature and as we mature we should start bearing fruit.


Can anyone tell me what some of the fruits of the spirit are?

 

[przero]

KokomoGST - Repent right before you die? Sure that's easy , Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today, you shall be with me in Paradise."

jyates - Amen.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: przero
GtPrOjEcTX - #5 would not be quite correct.

According to the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I think that once saved always saved is the only possible answer. Faith in Jesus Christ results in a changed life, never again to return to unbelief.

Let me offer a different interpretation to that verse, and then I'll give some more verses which supports that interpretation.

Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Starts off saying God's mercy and great love delivers us from His wrath. God's love reaches us when we are sinners, and saves us so that we may see heaven one day.
By God's grace we are saved through our faith in him; we cannot do anything ourselves by our own works to get into heaven. It is the gift of God. If it were the case that man could save himself, surely he would be boostful saying things such as "I don't need Jesus, I got myself into heaven." We are of God's creation, that we may do good works, which God has commanded us to do.

"It is not against works that we contend, but against trust in works" - Martin Luther

The reason these verses were wrote to the Ephesians is because obviously Paul had heard that some of them thought that since they were doing so much of God's work, that they were earning their way into heaven. This is surely not the case as stated here as man can only get into heaven by God's grace. But we were put here to do his work.

And the other verses I promised to back up this interpretation.

James 2:18-26
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Our faith is shown by our works. "Faith without works is dead". Straight from the verse.

 

[przero]

I agree with your interpretations, but none of those speak to losing your salvation. Works come with faith, no doubt. but what we Southern Baptist call a backslidden Christian is in no way going to lose his Salvation. that is a gift from God that will never be retracted.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

"Faith without works is dead"

as in dead in Christ, as in no salvation. seems pretty clear to me

 

[udonoogen]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: udonoogen
Christians who sin are still Christians and are still saved. why? because all Christians sin. all people sin. sinning intentionally and sinning unintentionally ... its still sin. being a Christian doesn't give you the license to sin freely. that's ridiculous. the motive for living a more Christ-like life is to please God.

Once saved, always saved is not taught in the Bible. Once saved Christians can fall away. Judas for example.

some would say that it's not possible to lose your faith. rather they were never truly committed.

 

[jyates]

Originally posted by: udonoogen

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: udonoogen
Christians who sin are still Christians and are still saved. why? because all Christians sin. all people sin. sinning intentionally and sinning unintentionally ... its still sin. being a Christian doesn't give you the license to sin freely. that's ridiculous. the motive for living a more Christ-like life is to please God.

Once saved, always saved is not taught in the Bible. Once saved Christians can fall away. Judas for example.

some would say that it's not possible to lose your faith. rather they were never truly committed.

Losing your faith (or turning away from God) is something that man does, both the saved and the unsaved.
But God never turns his back or takes away salvation from us.

That is what makes him God and us humans.
He keeps his committments even when we don't keep ours.

I'd hate to serve a living God that would keep me guessing if I was "faithful" enough to keep the salvation he had given to me
so freely in the first place!


Look at John 10:27-30 (This is Jesus talking)

27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28: And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all: and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30: I and my Father are one.

That's what I call eternal security of the believer!

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Well, I suppose this is where I would say, show me the verse to back up your point that a person that falls away doesn't truly believe in the first place.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
Well, I suppose this is where I would say, show me the verse to back up your point that a person that falls away doesn't truly believe in the first place.

Mmm, that's been a question of mine for a while.

 

[przero]

"Faith without works is dead". Do you have to have works to have faith and be saved? Nope. Works come as a natural progression. Should your works stop, you will still have salvation.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: przero
"Faith without works is dead". Do you have to have works to have faith and be saved? Nope. Works come as a natural progression. Should your works stop, you will still have salvation.

"show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe"

said here the devils also believe in Jesus...so is that enough for the devils to be saved...I don't think so.

 

[jyates]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
Well, I suppose this is where I would say, show me the verse to back up your point that a person that falls away doesn't truly believe in the first place.

If he didn't believe in the first place he never was saved in the first place.

And I was talking about the eternal security of the believer (saved).

Again, it's not my place to "judge" God is in control of that, and I'm glad of it!

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

regarding John 10:27-30
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

this means that God gave us salvation. No other man can take away my salvation. (no man is able to pluck from God's hand) well that is not the point we are discussing here. we are discussing whether or not I of my own free can fall from God's grace. So if it said no one is able to jump out of God's hand, then you might have a point, but it doesn't say that.

 

[jyates]

said here the devils also believe in Jesus...so is that enough for the devils to be saved...I don't think so.

There is a difference between believing in something and trusting in something.

Sure....even Satan believes in Jesus.....but he is certainly not trusting in him. His end is already told in Revelations.


The same God who is able to keep any man from "plucking" one of his children out of his hand is more than able to safeguard
my salvation.

When we receive salvation we become a member of the family of God. Joint heirs with Christ as the Bible says. You may
"disown" your family and claim you are not a member of your family, but the fact remains that you are a son or daugther of
your father and a son or daughter of your mother. As much as you resist the idea of being the offspring of your biological
parents you can't undo it. It's the same with salvation being "born again" you are born into the spiritual family of God and
no matter what you do you can't remove that "kinship". God is the one in control of safeguarding the relationship and
"keeping us in his hand" as it were.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

This will be my third time posting these verses but it should take care of your "not your place to judge" argument.

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
For the ones who think we are not to judge others.
ad·mon·ish
1) To reprove gently but earnestly.
2) To counsel (another) against something to be avoided; caution.
3) To remind of something forgotten or disregarded, as an obligation or a responsibility.

Matthew 7:1-5
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Definitions:
mote - a very small particle; a speck
beam - a squared-off log or a large, oblong piece of timber, metal, or stone used especially as a horizontal support in construction (in other words, a big log)
Often misinterpretted due to lack of context. Judge not, because you yourself will be judged as well. Taken in context it instructs to not judge someone for some small flaw they have (speck in their eye) while you yourself have much greater problems (log in your eye). It calls a person doing this a hypocrite, and instructs them to get rid of their own problems (cast out the beam out of thine own eye) and then they will be able to properly help the other fallen Christian. (see clearly help out your brother)
Note: when speaking of "brothers" throughout the New Testament it is refering to fellow Christians.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: jyates

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
Well, I suppose this is where I would say, show me the verse to back up your point that a person that falls away doesn't truly believe in the first place.

If he didn't believe in the first place he never was saved in the first place.

And I was talking about the eternal security of the believer (saved).

Again, it's not my place to "judge" God is in control of that, and I'm glad of it!

Originally posted by: jyates

said here the devils also believe in Jesus...so is that enough for the devils to be saved...I don't think so.

There is a different between believing in something and trusting in something.

Sure....even Satan believes in Jesus.....but he is certainly not trusting in him. His end is already told in Revelations.

I thought you were talking about believing, not trusting.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Some more points conflicting with the onced saved always saved idea..

John 15:9-10
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

So its stated IF we keep his commandments, THEN we shall abide in his love. Pretty simple syntax. And to follow up..

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

So if we aren't abiding in him (not keeping his commandments), we are cast away and put in a fire and burned...sounds like external punishment to me..

But, if we keep his commandments, we shall be in his love. (salvation)