hypocritical christians

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Isaiah 64:6
For we are all become as one who is unclean, and all our righteousness are as a polluted garment: and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

I think this means basically that we all sin (become as one who is unclean) and when we do, we become as a polluted garment (filthy rag in your translation). But again this is the Old Testament (which we're no longer under) which was much easier to sin under.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Perhaps this thread should be retitled "hypothetical Christians"

 

[BowlingNut]

Originally posted by: przero
BowlingNut - I'll ask you . What is required to go to Heaven?

I believe as a Catholic Chrisitian that to get into heaven one must:
1) believe in God Almighty
2) give witness to that belief through works manifesting God's plan for the salvation of the world


I am not here to start an argument, i'm only explaining my beliefs. i understand a lot more about most religions than you would think, i've had several very close friend who were episcopal, methodist, southern baptist, and even mormon. my father holds a master's in theology, and is soon to be a deacon at my parish. he has taught me how to study theology for myself, and after studying the Scriptures on my own i understood that the Catholic church proclaimed almost exactly what i believe, and so i was confirmed almost four years ago.
that said, i also hold the personal belief that if a person decides a particular moral code/religion is right for them, they stick to it, and try their hardest to love God they will reap the fruits of their efforts in Heaven. You may think that I am going to burn in hell for eternity, but i believe that you and i will be brothers in Heaven.

edit: note on the foriveness of 7x70 times: i've forgotten exactly what those numbers mean (one is Infinity, the other is God, and something else.. not sure) basically it means that you should forgive someone as many times as God forgives them, which is infinite.

 

[Xionide]

i dont see whay all of you get all pissy about the subject. everybody disagrees on it and nobody is right. not even me. every time someone mentions it the thread gos to hell. same with abortions race and macs and pc's. so please just chill out and roll a christian joint

 

[dejacky]

and the thread turns into giant flame war instead of intelligent responses!

 

[Xionide]

Originally posted by: dejacky
and the thread turns into giant flame war instead of intelligent responses!

exactly my man

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Sadly, this thread appears to be dying. I hoped someone could have replied to this post. One last bump just in case.

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
How many times of forgiveness?

Matthew 18:21-34
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Throughout the Bible the number 7 represents the idea of a whole amount. Peter mistakes this "seven" to be a literal 7 times. Jesus then corrects him 70 times 7 (literally 490 times but meant to be taken not literally, just as as many times as asked to be forgiven, he/she will be)

The parable presents 3 figures, the king (God), one of his servants (man A, aka us), and one of the servant's servants (man B).
If Man A sins against God and repents he will be forgiven.
If Man B sins against Man A but Man A doesn't forgive him when asked for forgiveness, Man A sins.
Since Man A sins (again, but doesn't ask for forgiveness this time) God gives punishment.

(These are some more verses that conflict with the once saved always saved idea)

 

[cw823]

Yes, and no. But you MUST understand God's view of sin here.

A Christian that sins, and KEEPS SINNING is most likely not a Christian.

Salvation brings a true view of our sins, and a TRUE repantance from those sins. This is not a "I'm sorry for all the things I"ve done", but the next day you're right back at it. If that's the case, your salvation was not true.

Granted, I do not hold the book of life, nor do any of us have the wherewithal to determine one's salvation....but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.


My point is not that God does not forgive, but that if you're constantly asking for forgiveness for the same, repetetive sin, there's a bigger problem at hand.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: cw823
Yes, and no. But you MUST understand God's view of sin here.

A Christian that sins, and KEEPS SINNING is most likely not a Christian.

We're human. We will always sin, and will continue to always sin. That's what it means to be human.

Smart, ain't he folks!

 

[cw823]

The whole point of a saving experience is to recognize that you ARE a sinner and TURN FROM THAT SIN.


If you're not recognizing, repenting, and turning from sin in your life, you don't have it.

 

[isildur]

well, I kept out of here for the longest time expecting a flame war - but I see that this really isn't, so I'll join in the fun.

The referrences to James are all fine and good, but you conflict the teaching or Paul with regard to the criteria for salvation when you add "works" as a prerequisite as demonstration of faith, as well as the context of the passage (read: intent) and the example of Christ himself (the dying thief was not asked to perform a set number or type of "works" to demonstrate his faith).

James was writing about relationships between people within the church - his point was that another person, since they cannot know the heart, can only "see" the reality of a person's faith (what they claim to believe) by considering it in comparison to their actions. If a person tells you that they believe, yet habitually (a critical distinction) behave to the contrary, then we need to consider our approach to them - meaning that we have to evaluate whether we are to disciple them (as a young believer), or evangelize them (as a pre-christian), or, possibly, rebuke them as an elder believer who is acting inappropriately and then minister to their specific need. This is really the extent however to our appropriate usage of this pasage - it was never intended as a "if not a, then not b" equation.

No sensible Christian would argue the progression that naturally occurs between geniune repentance/salvation and the gradual manifestation of increasing works of obedience, but it would be fallacious to assert that, as fellow struggling brothers/sisters we can discern the reality of a person's spiritual rebirth by analyzing our perceptions of their subsequent behavior, or, if we did so, it would be presumptious in the extreme to consider this conclusion as definitive or authorative.
AT BEST, our observations/conclusions must always be qualified by the realization that our perspective is neither omniscient, nor eternal, nor authoritive - as it is the conversation that occurs between man-God that results in redemption, not the further acts that should naturally follow.

The distinction of "real" or "false" salvation experiences is a dangerous one for believers to start toying with in any practical sense. It is useful to us in rhetorical/appologetic conversations (as we agree about the observable results of one being different than the observable results of the other), but is presumptive to employ directed towards a person. In a vacuum, we would expect each new believer to manifest the same behaviors, but this expectation is childish and fails to acknowledge and appreciate the vast differences in personality, circumstances and expectations of the Father on each new believer. What is obedience for one may be sin for another, and vise versa (obviously not referring to the "big 10" or anything here).

To maintain that any person who had a "real" salvation experience would then cease all sinful behavior is also childish, but also dangerous and in open conflict to a myriad of scriptural teachings. The case for perfect "santification" post-salvation is pedestrian and simply doesn't hold up to a critical analysis of the text. There are just too many places that clearly mark the path of obedience and growth as just that - a continuing process of growth. The only place in scripture that I can think of off the top of my head (NT) where the body is instructed to turn their back on a "believer" is in the case of repeated "heresy" in rebellion to correction. While there are many other instructions regarding the proper conduct of a believer, and many rebukes to believers whose behavior did not meet these standards, never is the rebuked accused of having a "false" conversion experience, nor are we lead to believe that the ideal of the sinless life is one that is attainable while "in the flesh" - much to the contrary. Of course we expect the new believer to turn his back on the sinful nature, but it is never asserted that the "new man" will be free of all sin, nor are we given basis for the inference that because a person has sinned or has a "sin issue" in his/her life that they are therefore not "in the faith" - shoot, the OT is a veritable catalgue of "faithful men" who fall into sin/error during their walk, yet they are never then accused of having been lacking in faith or sincerity from the beginning.

While I would agree wholeheartedly that there is indeed a "bigger problem at hand" in the case of the professed "christian" who continues in sin, it is clearly stepping outside our authority to declare this person's faith void and their profession of faith a lie. Better and more consistent with teaching to spend our time reaching out (whether in the embrace of compassion or the embrace of loving correction) than to declare them "unregenerative" and treat them as an outsider.

 

[przero]

isildur - I agree. The thing we must maintain is the thought that ALL sin is the same to God. Paul considered himself a sinner,as he wrestled with Sin in Romans 7. It is not ours to decide who is or isn't saved , but it is ours to spread the Gospel. and in this day actions speak louder than words.

 

[bubbadrew]

What someone "claims" to be, whether Christian, Shinto, or Moslem or Houdini...is exactly that...a mere statement of claim. Proffessing to be something that you're not is taboo in ju\st about any religion I can think of that we have on this world now, except for religions such as...whats that one...oh, that's right....politician isn't a religion is it? However, what people do, or a large number of them even as a group, while claiming to be affiliated with a group or denomination, doesn't mean that such a particular or singular religious faith or belief is at blame. Now of course, if that church or organization condones such actions then yes, they are at fault too. But people themselves tend to become "wanna be's" by mere personailty "glitches". We have to also look at the fact that "trying" to be something, taking steps and making efforts to better oursleves, is never a loss. Never-the-less, we also have to admit that we tend to remember the bad in people more than the good. We can all remember with a grin and a smile, people such as Jim and Tammy Faye Baker or Jerry Fallwell if we were knowledgable of it back then, and their widely publicized failings . But when was the last time we felt good about hearing that a Mother Teresa stererotype, or a Gahndi type mover...made the headlines and we logged them into our conscience with approval and a loud "attaboy" or I guess "attagirl" at times. We just don't "feed" off good stuff as much as our attention seems to be drawn towards bad things. We tend to remember the bad easier it seems. Not in mere defense of Christians today buuuuuuuut...there is more "good" done by their God through such channels as the people who worship Him in their professed "claims"... than any other organizational multitude. Not just trying to paint a "holier than thou" image of them here, but when we DO choose to take the time and alow ourselves to actually "look"...we can realize that our government...city, local, county, state and federal...fails to help as the needs require, with less fortunate, developmentally, mentally, physically challenged or just flat out poor...its the groups professing to be Christian that get the jobs done that are left unanswered. From shelter housing for the homeless, daily feeding of the hungry, payment of utilitiy bills in arrears to clothing, its those groups though of different faiths that pull up their sleeves and get the job done. Now we know the govenrment "helps" financially with some of these services, but we never see "US GOVENMENT CLOTHING STORE" or "GREENE COUTY FOOD AND FEEDING CENTER". Its those believers in faiths that come out and make it a part of their life to better life's tendency to leave many uncared for. Yes, sometimes even "these" services are parasited and tarnished, but at least they're there for those who would starve or be cast off to the side and ignored.
So although I myself laugh and tauntfully snicker when the TV preacher comes on the channel, just before I anniahlate him with my remote, I "try" to realize at the same time I chastise such people, I alsowish to be the type of persona nd human that can acknowledge the common good of all these folk's efforts, and actions. There "are" a lot of "wanna be's" out there, but I guess more good comes from the whole than bad does. That's of course purely dependant on if we wish to use our full unbiased mental potential and recognize the existence of that little bitty ol' "good vs. bad selective memory clause" though. Then again, a good question posed such as yours is nto wrong, but then again we can ask ourselves, "what am I doing to make my "close" world any better, nothing ... just because it won't matter? If it matters to a few, it matters to enough. Later...and thanks for being patient with my longwindedness.

 

[Analog]

Originally posted by: bubbadrew
What someone "claims" to be, whether Christian, Shinto, or Moslem or Houdini...is exactly that...a mere statement of claim. Proffessing to be something that you're not is taboo in ju\st about any religion I can think of that we have on this world now, except for religions such as...whats that one...oh, that's right....politician isn't a religion is it? However, what people do, or a large number of them even as a group, while claiming to be affiliated with a group or denomination, doesn't mean that such a particular or singular religious faith or belief is at blame. Now of course, if that church or organization condones such actions then yes, they are at fault too. But people themselves tend to become "wanna be's" by mere personailty "glitches". We have to also look at the fact that "trying" to be something, taking steps and making efforts to better oursleves, is never a loss. Never-the-less, we also have to admit that we tend to remember the bad in people more than the good. We can all remember with a grin and a smile, people such as Jim and Tammy Faye Baker or Jerry Fallwell if we were knowledgable of it back then, and their widely publicized failings . But when was the last time we felt good about hearing that a Mother Teresa stererotype, or a Gahndi type mover...made the headlines and we logged them into our conscience with approval and a loud "attaboy" or I guess "attagirl" at times. We just don't "feed" off good stuff as much as our attention seems to be drawn towards bad things. We tend to remember the bad easier it seems. Not in mere defense of Christians today buuuuuuuut...there is more "good" done by their God through such channels as the people who worship Him in their professed "claims"... than any other organizational multitude. Not just trying to paint a "holier than thou" image of them here, but when we DO choose to take the time and alow ourselves to actually "look"...we can realize that our government...city, local, county, state and federal...fails to help as the needs require, with less fortunate, developmentally, mentally, physically challenged or just flat out poor...its the groups professing to be Christian that get the jobs done that are left unanswered. From shelter housing for the homeless, daily feeding of the hungry, payment of utilitiy bills in arrears to clothing, its those groups though of different faiths that pull up their sleeves and get the job done. Now we know the govenrment "helps" financially with some of these services, but we never see "US GOVENMENT CLOTHING STORE" or "GREENE COUTY FOOD AND FEEDING CENTER". Its those believers in faiths that come out and make it a part of their life to better life's tendency to leave many uncared for. Yes, sometimes even "these" services are parasited and tarnished, but at least they're there for those who would starve or be cast off to the side and ignored.
So although I myself laugh and tauntfully snicker when the TV preacher comes on the channel, just before I anniahlate him with my remote, I "try" to realize at the same time I chastise such people, I alsowish to be the type of persona nd human that can acknowledge the common good of all these folk's efforts, and actions. There "are" a lot of "wanna be's" out there, but I guess more good comes from the whole than bad does. That's of course purely dependant on if we wish to use our full unbiased mental potential and recognize the existence of that little bitty ol' "good vs. bad selective memory clause" though. Then again, a good question posed such as yours is nto wrong, but then again we can ask ourselves, "what am I doing to make my "close" world any better, nothing ... just because it won't matter? If it matters to a few, it matters to enough. Later...and thanks for being patient with my longwindedness.

wow, a big first post!

 

[straubs]

Organized religion is a hoax. Notice I said "organized religion" and not "personal spirituality." BIG difference.

I wish everyone would stop being sheep and think for themselves. Groupthink is good for no one

 

[AlienCraft]

Do your own research and make up your own mind.

OHH MY GAWD!


That means they have to think and not be spoon fed their opinion. There might even be commitment involved. :Q

< sarcasm meters should be pegged

 

[MainFramed]

Originally posted by: cw823
Yes, and no. But you MUST understand God's view of sin here.

A Christian that sins, and KEEPS SINNING is most likely not a Christians.

everyone is born with sin, everyone...even the so said to be "best" christians will sin. we are all sinners, and thats why Jesus Christ died on the cross, for everyone. Including you

 

[Furyline]

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio

Originally posted by: Beast1284

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
I think people striclty sticking to their religion and the rules they impose are backward people.

What's the point of a religion? it's not wearing special clothes, or avoiding electricity or not having sex. It's about finding peace of mind, that's all. Some people find it through religion, other through meditation, other through martial arts, while others don't seek it at all.

Furthermore, IMHO, a true religion should not impose any way of life besides that of respecting humanity. I am proud of being a christian because I find Jesus Christ's "rules" of respecting and loving each other remarquable. I don't go to church every sunday, but that doesn't make me any less christian. I do my best to forgive others' mistakes, and to help anyone as much as I can. No, I'm not perfect, but I try to be a better man every day. I guess that's the whole point.

In all cases, I don't care at all what you call your god or how many you have. The only important thing is that every one respects the other and finds peace of mind in whatever he believes in. A belief is personnal and should not be imposed on someone else. Any alien looking at us would think we're complete morons insulting and killing each other because of religion.

What is your definition of a Christian?

I think this is quite an irrelevant question, but I'd say it's someone who believes in Jesus Christ. Hence the word "christian".

I prefer to define a Christian as a follower of Jesus Christ. After all, I assume that the Devil believes in Jesus. When I say believe I mean believe that he exists, that he is the Son of God, etc etc. Not accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Mike