I'd say they didn't have much of a choice in this case (have to fight when you are attacked) but in other cases like the violent protests at the various G* meetings they were the sole culprit of the violence.
Had a self-touted liberal columnist on NPR today talking about Antifa (apparently he follows them and interviews them often). He had some issues with them--basically anarchy is hardly compatible with liberalism In general, it's not a good thing if a group can just go in and cause violence and mayhem and subvert counter-protests. It's counter-productive for one thing, it provides the alt-right for fuel against the entire Left. And he said that it's on their whim who they turn their violence and methods against...it's not so bad when it's against scum like Nazis, but that may not always be the case.
That said, he said the equivalency with alt-right white supremacists is false for three reasons:
- scope of violence is far less. White-first groups kill more than Islamic terrorists, and both far more than leftist groups.
- they do not have the audience like the alt-right groups have all the way up to high levels of government.
- their stated goals and methods may be "bad" in some way but not as bad as the goals of the nazi types.
Personally, I think they are not helping the situation. I believe in counter-protests but they need to stay non-violent. You'd get a lot more people going out to them if they did.
Hell, I'm fine with a City/County government taking them down and relocating them...that is NOT the same as a group of protesters tearing them down because of "feels."
I agree fully, put it to a vote.
I'm merely saying that Charlottesville is what started it and now others want the vote too and when denied so they take matters into their own hands.
LOL, so it wasn't about slavery then. Thanks for the damning admission
I actually agree with a lot of that, but these are statues of men who fought on the Confederate side in the mid-nineteenth century. They were fighting to preserve slavery as an institution. Specifically, they were fighting to make slavery legal in the territories, which would become new states - therefore expanding the institution of slavery. Again, this is not in the eighteenth century when slavery was accepted by most people, this is mid-nineteenth century. The Northern states had become pretty hardline about not tolerating slavery, and virtually all the European nations had completely banned slavery except in a few colonies.Get your head out of your ass for just 5 minutes and realize that not everything that YOU disagree with is evil. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. You know that guy George Washington that built the brick and mortar of this country and its policy? Fuck him, he's evil and owned slaves! How did he not know to get rid of them immediately?! Oh yeah, and all these other Presidents (many of which are some of the biggest names in historical significance): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves
You act as if you have any idea of what it was like to live during those times - or even know what was going on. The answer is you don't. You're like a prissy little teenage hippy twat that says "Llllike chaaaa' get with the times man. You can't be like... enslaving peoplezzz and using tape players. You gotta get with the times! This is the 21st century!"
For those that actually want to get their head out of their ass on this subject, perhaps learn a thing or two - I would honestly recommend TJ Kirk's take on it. In the end I agree with him that I truly don't care one way or the other by any significant amount, but if you think tearing down public property of past is some kind of symbolic and revolutionary gesture, you're just completely stupid. The rest of the world is rolling their eyes and laughing as you kick a statue of someone who is dead.
Oh, we are in complete agreement with everything you said. My point was that the state legislature (I'm going by what others have said here; I have not verified it) prevented the statues from being relocated to a more appropriate place such as a museum, battlefield, or Civil War cemetery. (I don't think a National Park would be appropriate except for Civil War battlefield Parks.) That forced a binary choice: Continue to leave the statues on the same footing as Lincoln or Washington or Jefferson, or tear them down. Personally I would have elected to continue the fight, but I'm not going to condemn those who say no more, this has been the case for one hundred fifty years and the line must be drawn here, today.Here's where I disagree with you. As ugly a time as it was in our country's history, it's STILL part of our history. Do we start tearing down statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson since they both had slaves?
No. It was "acceptable" at the time. Right or wrong, it was "the way it is" back then.
Statues of Confederate Civil War generals and soldiers isn't a slap in the face of American Blacks...except for those who look for any reason to be offended by "White Privilege." They are just as much a part of American history as statues of U.S. Grant, Abraham Lincoln, Dr. Martin Luther King, and all the other people who made this country what it is.
My opinion is keep the statues, move them to a National Park or cemetery, Don't destroy them. Erasing them from public view doesn't make that history go away. Destroying them makes us as bad as Al Queda or ISIS destroying the various statues and religious artifacts because they aren't in keeping with their religion.
Well said, sir.yes. several apparently. Such things can be done appropriately, and in the proper context. It's no small thing for a nation to suffer the loss of nearly an entire generation of their youngest--regardless of their own complicity in their self-destruction, regardless of the evils they fought for. Certainly not all of those who fought were true believers.
Had a self-touted liberal columnist on NPR today talking about Antifa (apparently he follows them and interviews them often). He had some issues with them--basically anarchy is hardly compatible with liberalism In general, it's not a good thing if a group can just go in and cause violence and mayhem and subvert counter-protests. It's counter-productive for one thing, it provides the alt-right for fuel against the entire Left. And he said that it's on their whim who they turn their violence and methods against...it's not so bad when it's against scum like Nazis, but that may not always be the case.
That said, he said the equivalency with alt-right white supremacists is false for three reasons:
- scope of violence is far less. White-first groups kill more than Islamic terrorists, and both far more than leftist groups.
- they do not have the audience like the alt-right groups have all the way up to high levels of government.
- their stated goals and methods may be "bad" in some way but not as bad as the goals of the nazi types.
Personally, I think they are not helping the situation. I believe in counter-protests but they need to stay non-violent. You'd get a lot more people going out to them if they did.
If you truly want to #ENDWHITESUPREMACY, you'll need to utterly destroy the delusion that it is somehow trapped inside confederate monuments...
Dr. Crystal Fleming had some absolutely amazing tweet storms yesterday, about the focus of attention on Confederate and Southern racism, and the role it plays in obscuring liberal and Northern racism. This one is about why comparisons to Germany are not appropriate. She had a couple others yesterday too. They are all worth reading.
https://twitter.com/alwaystheself/status/897926086083792898
The Comparisons to Germany are understandable.. but as a scholar of collective memory and white supremacy, let me offer this point:
--
There aren't memorials to Hitler in Germany, but there was a Germany before Hitler. This is a very important difference.
--
There is no U.S. before genocide, slavery, white supremacy. And so the problem of collective memory extends beyond confederate memorials.
--
Removing memorials to white supremacy in the United States is not simply a matter of knocking down statues of Robert E. Lee
--
Reminder: Slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow, mass incarceration, and centuries of systematic racism all happened under the star spangled banner.
--
Confederate symbols serve to not only celebrate white supremacy -- but also to preserve the liberal mythology that the Union was anti-racist.
--
The civil war was a battle between two warring white supremacist factions. And, quiet as it's kept.. white supremacy won.
--
As overt celebrations of white supremacy, confederate symbols absolutely deserve removal. But understand that these are easy targets.
--
The simple story of a "good", anti-racist, slavery-abolishing Union, and a "bad", racist Confederate is liberal propaganda. It was never true.
--
The nation that existed prior to the civil war was racist. That country is still racist today. It has never not been racist.
--
It's too easy to point at Germany and say "they don't have statues to Hitler!" Our whole country was literally founded on white supremacy.
--
You want to know why the U.S. still has memorials to white supremacy white Germany does not? White supremacy was "our" founding principle.
--
White supremacy here can't just be reduced to a persona (Hitler), or an extreme faction (Nazis). It's the whole political apparatus.
--
White supremacy in our country is not just sequestered in confederate statues or Nazi symbols. It infuses every aspect of our society.
--
White supremacy in this country is displayed on the star spangled banner, on our money, in our (neo)liberal ideology and hypercapitalism..
--
It's in the infiltration of white supremacists into every sphere of power (economics, politics, the military, the police, academia..)
--
White supremacy, here, cannot be toppled by toppling statues. It's endemic -- and this is a fact that your black president repeatedly denied.
--
Obama built his political career (before, during and now after his presidency) by granting some acknowledgement to racism but insisting +
--
.. that white supremacy was not a fundamental feature of our politics, society, and culture. Which is to say, he perpetuated a neoliberal lie.
--
As a system, white supremacy needs people to believe that 1) it doesn't exist 2) has been overcome or 3) only exists among extremists.
--
White supremacy can't tolerate millions of people finally realizing that it is pervasive and systematic. It needs you ignorant and "hopeful"
--
This system needs you to cling to a particular kind of hope -- a hope that reinforces racial ignorance and denial of white supremacy.
--
A hope that sells you neoliberal inclusion and "feel-good" tokenism -- the kind of hope that cannot threaten the racial status quo.
--
If you truly want to #ENDWHITESUPREMACY, you'll need to utterly destroy the delusion that it is somehow trapped inside confederate monuments.
--
You'll have to see, maybe for the first time, that white supremacy is as entangled in the star spangled banner as it is in confederate flags.
--
And you will have to let go of any ideology that would have you see white supremacy in your political enemies, but not your political faves.
--
Before the civil war, Northern white "liberal" racists frequently pointed to southern whites to avoid admitting their own racism.
--
These Northern "liberals" -- many of whom owned slaves -- excoriated the "easy" targets of southern whites who overtly embraced racism.
--
We're seeing this same pattern play out today, 150 years later, whit neoliberal Democrats pretending that racism is sequestered on the right
--
This liberal hypocrisy and selective outrage distracts from the continued concentration of wealth in the hands of white male property owners.
What an abysmally stupid lady. I hope that one day she is lucky enough to escape this racist nation for literally any other. Someone please tell her that Delta runs an underground railroad . . .If you truly want to #ENDWHITESUPREMACY, you'll need to utterly destroy the delusion that it is somehow trapped inside confederate monuments...
Dr. Crystal Fleming had some absolutely amazing tweet storms yesterday, about the focus of attention on Confederate and Southern racism, and the role it plays in obscuring liberal and Northern racism. This one is about why comparisons to Germany are not appropriate. She had a couple others yesterday too. They are all worth reading.
https://twitter.com/alwaystheself/status/897926086083792898
The Comparisons to Germany are understandable.. but as a scholar of collective memory and white supremacy, let me offer this point:
--
There aren't memorials to Hitler in Germany, but there was a Germany before Hitler. This is a very important difference.
--
There is no U.S. before genocide, slavery, white supremacy. And so the problem of collective memory extends beyond confederate memorials.
--
Removing memorials to white supremacy in the United States is not simply a matter of knocking down statues of Robert E. Lee
--
Reminder: Slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow, mass incarceration, and centuries of systematic racism all happened under the star spangled banner.
--
Confederate symbols serve to not only celebrate white supremacy -- but also to preserve the liberal mythology that the Union was anti-racist.
--
The civil war was a battle between two warring white supremacist factions. And, quiet as it's kept.. white supremacy won.
--
As overt celebrations of white supremacy, confederate symbols absolutely deserve removal. But understand that these are easy targets.
--
The simple story of a "good", anti-racist, slavery-abolishing Union, and a "bad", racist Confederate is liberal propaganda. It was never true.
--
The nation that existed prior to the civil war was racist. That country is still racist today. It has never not been racist.
--
It's too easy to point at Germany and say "they don't have statues to Hitler!" Our whole country was literally founded on white supremacy.
--
You want to know why the U.S. still has memorials to white supremacy white Germany does not? White supremacy was "our" founding principle.
--
White supremacy here can't just be reduced to a persona (Hitler), or an extreme faction (Nazis). It's the whole political apparatus.
--
White supremacy in our country is not just sequestered in confederate statues or Nazi symbols. It infuses every aspect of our society.
--
White supremacy in this country is displayed on the star spangled banner, on our money, in our (neo)liberal ideology and hypercapitalism..
--
It's in the infiltration of white supremacists into every sphere of power (economics, politics, the military, the police, academia..)
--
White supremacy, here, cannot be toppled by toppling statues. It's endemic -- and this is a fact that your black president repeatedly denied.
--
Obama built his political career (before, during and now after his presidency) by granting some acknowledgement to racism but insisting +
--
.. that white supremacy was not a fundamental feature of our politics, society, and culture. Which is to say, he perpetuated a neoliberal lie.
--
As a system, white supremacy needs people to believe that 1) it doesn't exist 2) has been overcome or 3) only exists among extremists.
--
White supremacy can't tolerate millions of people finally realizing that it is pervasive and systematic. It needs you ignorant and "hopeful"
--
This system needs you to cling to a particular kind of hope -- a hope that reinforces racial ignorance and denial of white supremacy.
--
A hope that sells you neoliberal inclusion and "feel-good" tokenism -- the kind of hope that cannot threaten the racial status quo.
--
If you truly want to #ENDWHITESUPREMACY, you'll need to utterly destroy the delusion that it is somehow trapped inside confederate monuments.
--
You'll have to see, maybe for the first time, that white supremacy is as entangled in the star spangled banner as it is in confederate flags.
--
And you will have to let go of any ideology that would have you see white supremacy in your political enemies, but not your political faves.
--
Before the civil war, Northern white "liberal" racists frequently pointed to southern whites to avoid admitting their own racism.
--
These Northern "liberals" -- many of whom owned slaves -- excoriated the "easy" targets of southern whites who overtly embraced racism.
--
We're seeing this same pattern play out today, 150 years later, whit neoliberal Democrats pretending that racism is sequestered on the right
--
This liberal hypocrisy and selective outrage distracts from the continued concentration of wealth in the hands of white male property owners.
I despise Antifa, but look at the OP's eloquent, reflective, thoughtful post detailing what has drawn him to the movement as well as showing that he understands the contradictions and dangers of the movement. There is literally zero chance of anyone among the Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, or Klansmen being capable of such introspection, let alone being brave enough to actually say it. Even anonymously. There are a lot more of these extremists on the left than there are Nazis/White Supremacists/Klansmen on the right, and yes, they are a negative force, but they aren't a shadow of the evil of the Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, and Klansmen. For once, Antifa is so much the lesser evil as to be the good guy.I'm not sure why the columnist had issues with them, it's literally the whining emo progression of what Liberals have been working towards for decades. We've now reached the AgentFail level of Liberal: It's Liberals looking in the mirror at the modern day version of their younger self. What's not to like?
I despise Antifa, but look at the OP's eloquent, reflective, thoughtful post detailing what has drawn him to the movement as well as showing that he understands the contradictions and dangers of the movement. There is literally zero chance of anyone among the Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, or Klansmen being capable of such introspection, let alone being brave enough to actually say it. Even anonymously. There are a lot more of these extremists on the left than there are Nazis/White Supremacists/Klansmen on the right, and yes, they are a negative force, but they aren't a shadow of the evil of the Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, and Klansmen. For once, Antifa is so much the lesser evil as to be the good guy.
With the people they are currently fighting, they are absolutely without doubt the lesser evil. My biggest opposition to Antifa is that they are attempting to impose their own fascism in the name of fighting fascism. However, consider the two groups. The people comprising Antifa are, as you say, going along with the popular movement. They are indoctrinated by political correctness, taking to an extreme the left's progressive movement. As such, they are going to be morally correct at least some of the time. By contrast, those within the Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, and Klansmen are going directly against not only political correctness, but against literally observable fact. One cannot reasonably deduce that white men are on balance discriminated against in America. Yes, in some respects and on some occasions white men are discriminated against in America, but on balance we have it pretty darned good. In other words, one can become Antifa simply by not questioning what one is taught, but one has to go against not only the overwhelming majority of Americans but also the overwhelming majority of visible evidence to become a Neo-Nazi or White Supremacist or Klansmen. This is why I believe that most of Antifa will cure themselves of the worst of the movement by simply growing up, whereas the vast majority of Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, and Klansmen are going to continue as they are, unreachable by education and will never be morally correct about anything.You know, I once made a comment to 234 about how if Lefties of today got their way, and got literally everything they whine about, that the Lefties of tomorrow would be screech whining about 10 other things, basically saying, the emo whiner that makes up Lefty just is never satisifed, they will always find a way to harp on something (whether real, imagined, whatever). He very much disagreed. You say that about Antifa, hey, I hope you're right. But consider this: These idiots are growing up in a full White Guilted world, where you need to be proud to be 'not a racist' (all the while minorities are racist as F, so basically, these whites are just suckers lol), you need to be Pro-Feminist, which really means whatever female whine BS of the day, etc. etc. These young people just completely soak it up, without question, because they've got a generation or two now of older idiots above them. They'll accept anything as long as it's couched in 'racism' 'sexism' 'Progressivism' etc and the "defeat" of whichever pied piper is playing that day. They purport themselves are thinkers, except, they lack critical thinking and instead are Believers.
Given the current generation of suckers, what hope do you hold out for their kids when they're in their 20's? Do you really believe they're the lessor of the evils?
He seems hell bent on ignoring the progress we, as country, have made to reduce our racism and to not only acknowledge it but to out right condemn it.
But shit! If we aren't calling out everybody and fixing everything all at once then why bother? Right? The fact that people who were once Klansmen like robert byrd who denounced the klan and realized their mistakes and sought to do right by their wrongs, well once a Klansmen always a Klansmen, right? Its only hypocrisy if you don't acknowledge your past while condemning others of what you have done. Are liberals claiming to be angels? Are they claiming to have clean hands? No? Then what the fuck is this guy talking about?
I'm guessing this guy is another Bernie supporter who believes in an all or nothing approach, progress be damned.
What an abysmally stupid lady. I hope that one day she is lucky enough to escape this racist nation for literally any other. Someone please tell her that Delta runs an underground railroad . . .
I'm fond of saying there is no wisdom on Youtube, but it's a freaking fountain of wisdom compared to Twitter. I can see why those using it are called Twits.
I'm fond of saying there is no wisdom on Youtube, but it's a freaking fountain of wisdom compared to Twitter. I can see why those using it are called Twits.
With the people they are currently fighting, they are absolutely without doubt the lesser evil. My biggest opposition to Antifa is that they are attempting to impose their own fascism in the name of fighting fascism. However, consider the two groups. The people comprising Antifa are, as you say, going along with the popular movement. They are indoctrinated by political correctness, taking to an extreme the left's progressive movement. As such, they are going to be morally correct at least some of the time. By contrast, those within the Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, and Klansmen are going directly against not only political correctness, but against literally observable fact. One cannot reasonably deduce that white men are on balance discriminated against in America. Yes, in some respects and on some occasions white men are discriminated against in America, but on balance we have it pretty darned good. In other words, one can become Antifa simply by not questioning what one is taught, but one has to go against not only the overwhelming majority of Americans but also the overwhelming majority of visible evidence to become a Neo-Nazi or White Supremacist or Klansmen. This is why I believe that most of Antifa will cure themselves of the worst of the movement by simply growing up, whereas the vast majority of Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, and Klansmen are going to continue as they are, unreachable by education and will never be morally correct about anything.
As to the next generation, starting in the sixties we have a pretty good tradition of kids growing up convinced that their parents are idiots in spite of massive lobbying to the contrary, in favor of the status quo. I suspect the proggies' kids will be much the same in spite of political correctness, as long as dissenting views are allowed to be accessible. I suspect that the proggies themselves believe the same, which is why they are trying so damned hard (including with Antifa) to prevent dissenting views from being heard. But suppressing information in the digital age isn't likely to be successful.
Looks like another Durham statue was targeted...Robert E. Lee statue at Duke University Chapel was defaced (literally "de-faced") today.
http://www.wral.com/duke-officials-investigating-vandalism-of-robert-e-lee-statue/16886971/
I'm not sure why the columnist had issues with them, it's literally the whining emo progression of what Liberals have been working towards for decades. We've now reached the AgentFail level of Liberal: It's Liberals looking in the mirror at the modern day version of their younger self. What's not to like?
Antifa are essentially a communist group manufacturing outrage and crying wolf about "Nazi's".
To antifa, anyone who is not "us" is one of "them" (an alt-right, white supremacist Nazi).
And what happens when you call normal people "Nazi's" for long enough?
Accusations of being a Nazi fall on deaf ears with all the normal people, and then actual Nazi's take the opportunity to come out of the shadows, and you get what happened at Charlottesville.
Hell, Hillary Clinton called the right wingnuts a literal "basket of deplorables" and they got so incensed, they started wearing that badge with pride and became a basket of deplorables! Seriously, these are some of the groups that banded together for "Unite the Right" in C-Ville:LOL...so a small whacko leftist group calls normal people Nazis (citation needed)...which causes the actual Nazis to come out. I have that right?
This system needs you to cling to a particular kind of hope -- a hope that reinforces racial ignorance and denial of white supremacy.