I am Antifa but what they did in Durham was wrong

[pmv]

Pretty sure that if OutHouse had been alive in 1776, he'd have been describing the American rebels as an "anarchist mob" and calling for crackdowns against them.

Yeah, but then he'd have had a point.

And give us our tea back.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I don't get why you don't get it.

He doesn't want to so he doesn't.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Granted, the mob took away the public's choice. But the Republican legislature did the same thing. By trying to keep these statues prominently displayed, they ended up losing the statues completely.

Do you think a small group of locals should always be able to over rule the State and/or Federal laws? To criminally destroy something or someone regardless what the rule of law is?

 

[J.Wilkins]

Do you think a small group of locals should always be able to over rule the State and/or Federal laws? To criminally destroy something or someone regardless what the rule of law is?

In a functioning democracy this would never be necessary since the will of the people (apart from when it infringes on other peoples rights) always wins.

What you have there is a dysfunctional semi-dictatorship and the people have a right to fight it. The bill of rights grants them that right.

 

[zinfamous]

That leadership was democratically elected. Therefore, they were doing the will of the people when the law was passed. There was a legal process that could have been used to reverse it. And with enough public pressure, that process could have been expedited. There was nothing about the statue that warranted drastic illegal action.

This country doesn't really democratically elect anyone anymore, but you know that already, right? The only way for the will of the people to be recognized, then, seems to be for the actual people to act out against the decisions of the minority party that is consolidating power to a very select few. It is the inevitable consequence when sociopaths like today's GOP wrest control from the vast majority of this country's rather liberal population.

 

[zinfamous]

The problem lies with BLM supporters insisting that "all lives matter" is an insult and must not be heard. Arguing that they agree that all lives matter is difficult to take seriously while they are attacking anyone saying that.

You still seem to think that Black Lives Matter means "Only Black Lives matter" It doesn't. It means "Black Lives Matter, too." It's a simple and obvious reminder that yes, while All Lives matter, the data on law enforcement and hiring and social treatment shows, conclusively, that this country does not treat all lives equally.

"All Lives Matter" is a craven insult to the movement, and it was expressly coined for that reason. "All lives Matter" is no different that plopping down a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest in Memphis, during the height of the Civil Rights movement, and claiming that this is all about "southern heritage!"

But you knew that, right?

 

[imported_tajmahal]

It seems the National Review agrees with you and opposes the ACLU in regards to free speech.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450610/new-york-times-free-speech-column-satire

"A New York Times op-ed is right, and the ACLU is wrong. In the New York Times, UCLA’s K-Sue Park proposes that “the A.C.L.U. Needs to Rethink Free Speech”: After the A.C.L.U. was excoriated for its stance, it responded that “preventing the government from controlling speech is absolutely necessary to the promotion of equality.” Of course that’s true. The hope is that by successfully defending hate groups, its legal victories will fortify free-speech rights across the board: A rising tide lifts all boats, as it goes. ......................."

 

[pmv]

It seems the National Review agrees with you and opposes the ACLU in regards to free speech.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450610/new-york-times-free-speech-column-satire

"A New York Times op-ed is right, and the ACLU is wrong. In the New York Times, UCLA’s K-Sue Park proposes that “the A.C.L.U. Needs to Rethink Free Speech”: After the A.C.L.U. was excoriated for its stance, it responded that “preventing the government from controlling speech is absolutely necessary to the promotion of equality.” Of course that’s true. The hope is that by successfully defending hate groups, its legal victories will fortify free-speech rights across the board: A rising tide lifts all boats, as it goes. ......................."

Why is it that the right aren't very good at satire? It's always a bit clunky and crude.

 

[ivwshane]

Why is it that the right aren't very good at satire? It's always a bit clunky and crude.

Because satire usually involves self deprecation and empathy. Two things the right don't do very well.

 

[apokalipse]

LOL...so a small whacko leftist group calls normal people Nazis (citation needed)...which causes the actual Nazis to come out. I have that right?

Didn't you ever read the story of the boy who cried wolf? Antifa is the boy who cried "Nazi".

Yes, if you call anyone that disagrees with your ideology a "Nazi", then people are going to start automatically assuming you are lying when you say anyone is a"Nazi", even if an actual Nazi comes along.
And the tiny minority of actual Nazi's know this is happening, so they've opportunistically started coming out of the shadows.

In essence, the trolls made us do it is what you are saying.

Do what? Not believe you when you call someone a Nazi?

Sounds very much like an excuse to do what people wanted to do in the first place, but maybe that's just me.

Oh I see, you're trying hard to justify falsely calling people who aren't Nazi's "Nazi's".

There are actual Nazi's out there, but they were always a tiny minority who had all but faded into irrelevance... until groups like Antifa came along.

I'm not even right wing, or a Donald Trump supporter. I'm just really disappointed in seeing how the Democrat side is being torn apart by what is essentially a hostile takeover by a communist ideology.

Don't believe Antifa are communists? Then why do they wave literal communist flags? Their own flag is the flag of the German Communist party of 1932, and some of them even openly wave the red flag with the hammer and sickle.
https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+communist+flags&tbm=isch

 

[zinfamous]

Didn't you ever read the story of the boy who cried wolf? Antifa is the boy who cried "Nazi".

Yes, if you call anyone that disagrees with your ideology a "Nazi", then people are going to start automatically assuming you are lying when you say anyone is a"Nazi", even if an actual Nazi comes along.
And the tiny minority of actual Nazi's know this is happening, so they've opportunistically started coming out of the shadows.

Nope.

It's about calling Nazis, Nazis. This isn't about "anyone who disagrees with you."

Are you trying to defend the actual Nazis that have called themselves Nazis? Does this mean you are a Nazi? There is no defense for Nazis, you get that, right?

Those that showed up in VA are Nazis, because, you know, they fucking called themselves Nazis and chanted like goddamn goatfucking pedo Nazis. Just like you expect Nazis to do. ...but are you saying they have "political differences?"

Oh, you must be a Nazi then, if you sympathize with the. There is free speech, there is fire in a theater, and there are fucking Nazis. You can't have all of them, child. Grow the fuck up and get the shit out of the room while the adults are speaking.

Hilarious: Goat-fucking Nazis show up to chant about killing jews and blacks, and this little shit up here defends them with "political difference." Fucking Nazis. they are empowered by President Nazi.

antifa isn't leftwing. they aren't any wing. they are anarchists and they are nihilsts. Did you eat shit for breakfast or what? Goddamn wannabe Nazi.

 

[apokalipse]

Nope.

It's about calling Nazis, Nazis. This isn't about "anyone who disagrees with you."

If you're not even willing to acknowledge the reality, then the problem is only going to get worse.
Antifa is going to continue calling people who disagree with them "Nazi's" and keep doubling down on people who say outright that they are not, and that they denounce Nazi's, you're going to create the conditions necessary for actual Nazi's to grow.

For instance, Donald Trump outright said that "both sides are to blame", in other words, he was denouncing both Nazi's and Antifa. But Antifa are trying to say that he supported the Nazi's, which is just dishonest.

And I'm not even a Donald Trump fan, or right wing, but this kind of thing is exactly why people voted against the Democrat party.

Are you trying to defend the actual Nazis that have called themselves Nazis?

The fact that you're even asking that is extremely dishonest.
I'm against Nazi's, and I'm against the communist ideology crying wolf about "Nazi's", because it hurts the people being falsely accused, and because it actually creates the conditions necessary for Nazi's to start growing. I do not want either of those things.

Does this mean you are a Nazi? There is no defense for Nazis, you get that, right?

There's also no defense for falsely accusing people of Nazi's because they don't want to join the communist ideology pretending to have a monopoly on "being anti Nazi".
The communist Antifa group is just as fascist as the Nazi's, except Antifa have larger numbers, which makes them a bigger threat.

Those that showed up in VA are Nazis, because, you know, they fucking called themselves Nazis and chanted like goddamn goatfucking pedo Nazis. Just like you expect Nazis to do. ...but are you saying they have "political differences?"

No, those were Nazi's. And the reason they are now out in the open is because of all the people the communist group have falsely accused of being Nazi's.
If we didn't have Antifa or BLM creating so much chaos, the small minority of actual Nazi's wouldn't dare come out in the open.

 

[pmv]

If you're not even willing to acknowledge the reality, then the problem is only going to get worse.
Antifa is going to continue calling people who disagree with them "Nazi's" and keep doubling down on people who say outright that they are not, and that they denounce Nazi's, you're going to create the conditions necessary for actual Nazi's to grow.

For instance, Donald Trump outright said that "both sides are to blame", in other words, he was denouncing both Nazi's and Antifa. But Antifa are trying to say that he supported the Nazi's, which is just dishonest.

And I'm not even a Donald Trump fan, or right wing, but this kind of thing is exactly why people voted against the Democrat party.

The fact that you're even asking that is extremely dishonest.
I'm against Nazi's, and I'm against the communist ideology crying wolf about "Nazi's", because it hurts the people being falsely accused, and because it actually creates the conditions necessary for Nazi's to start growing. I do not want either of those things.

There's also no defense for falsely accusing people of Nazi's because they don't want to join the communist ideology pretending to have a monopoly on "being anti Nazi".
The communist Antifa group is just as fascist as the Nazi's, except Antifa have larger numbers, which makes them a bigger threat.

No, those were Nazi's. And the reason they are now out in the open is because of all the people the communist group have falsely accused of being Nazi's.
If we didn't have Antifa or BLM creating so much chaos, the small minority of actual Nazi's wouldn't dare come out in the open.

This is really weak stuff.

For starters, if you think Trump saying 'there's blame on many sides' (not to mention that there are 'fine people on both sides') means he's opposing the Nazis you are _incredibly_ naive (and I have this bridge to sell you...). Just naive to the point where I suspect it's disingenuousness. And yeah, you _are_ right wing, or you wouldn't make such a silly argument. Even if its a passive kind of conservatism that stems from lack of interest/awareness.

Secondly that argument that you are going to 'create the conditions for actual Nazis to grow' is also pretty offensive. It sounds like a childish threat. "Say nasty things to me and I'll turn Nazi, so there!".

Also you do the usual right-wing thing (clearly you _are_ right-wing) of lumping all leftists together as 'communist'. Seems to me that most of the Antifa folk these days are anarchists of some variety.

If anything my doubts about them would be that by concentrating so much on obvious, swastika-waving Nazis and on 'direct action' they divert attention from conservatives and from economic issues and other forms of political activity.

Your final line is just beyond ridiculous. Where is all this 'chaos'? If only people would shut up and not complain about issues like cops shooting black people, then we wouldn't have Nazis? The most ridiculous argument I've heard for some time.

 

[Puffnstuff]

For starters, if you think Trump saying 'there's blame on many sides' (not to mention that there are 'fine people on both sides') means he's opposing the Nazis you are _incredibly_ naive (and I have this bridge to sell you...). Just naive to the point where I suspect it's disingenuousness. And yeah, you _are_ right wing, or you wouldn't make such a silly argument. Even if its a passive kind of conservatism that stems from lack of interest/awareness.

He's got a verifiable track record of racism.
http://fortune.com/2016/06/07/donald-trump-racism-quotes/
http://www.metro.us/president-trump/trump-racism-history-abridged-timeline

 

[pmv]

He's got a verifiable track record of racism.
http://fortune.com/2016/06/07/donald-trump-racism-quotes/
http://www.metro.us/president-trump/trump-racism-history-abridged-timeline

Agreed, I've come to realise that Trump is more consciously and overtly racist than I previously thought (I originally assumed he was just unthinkingly so out of ignorance, but it now seems as if its far more ideological than that). To be clearer, the 'passive conservatism' I referred to was with regard to the poster.

 

[mizzou]

Most of my liberal friends are denouncing the mob take down of statues.

I am an art and history enthusiast so it breaks my heart when I hear people suddenly destroy these things. Perhaps the next step will be mobs breaking into libraries and burning books...

 

[brycejones]

If you're not even willing to acknowledge the reality, then the problem is only going to get worse.
Antifa is going to continue calling people who disagree with them "Nazi's" and keep doubling down on people who say outright that they are not, and that they denounce Nazi's, you're going to create the conditions necessary for actual Nazi's to grow.

For instance, Donald Trump outright said that "both sides are to blame", in other words, he was denouncing both Nazi's and Antifa. But Antifa are trying to say that he supported the Nazi's, which is just dishonest.

And I'm not even a Donald Trump fan, or right wing, but this kind of thing is exactly why people voted against the Democrat party.

The fact that you're even asking that is extremely dishonest.
I'm against Nazi's, and I'm against the communist ideology crying wolf about "Nazi's", because it hurts the people being falsely accused, and because it actually creates the conditions necessary for Nazi's to start growing. I do not want either of those things.

There's also no defense for falsely accusing people of Nazi's because they don't want to join the communist ideology pretending to have a monopoly on "being anti Nazi".
The communist Antifa group is just as fascist as the Nazi's, except Antifa have larger numbers, which makes them a bigger threat.

No, those were Nazi's. And the reason they are now out in the open is because of all the people the communist group have falsely accused of being Nazi's.
If we didn't have Antifa or BLM creating so much chaos, the small minority of actual Nazi's wouldn't dare come out in the open.

More than 12 years of lurking and this is the best you could come up with? Sheesh....

 

[zinfamous]

If you're not even willing to acknowledge the reality, then the problem is only going to get worse.
Antifa is going to continue calling people who disagree with them "Nazi's" and keep doubling down on people who say outright that they are not, and that they denounce Nazi's, you're going to create the conditions necessary for actual Nazi's to grow.

For instance, Donald Trump outright said that "both sides are to blame", in other words, he was denouncing both Nazi's and Antifa. But Antifa are trying to say that he supported the Nazi's, which is just dishonest.

And I'm not even a Donald Trump fan, or right wing, but this kind of thing is exactly why people voted against the Democrat party.

The fact that you're even asking that is extremely dishonest.
I'm against Nazi's, and I'm against the communist ideology crying wolf about "Nazi's", because it hurts the people being falsely accused, and because it actually creates the conditions necessary for Nazi's to start growing. I do not want either of those things.

There's also no defense for falsely accusing people of Nazi's because they don't want to join the communist ideology pretending to have a monopoly on "being anti Nazi".
The communist Antifa group is just as fascist as the Nazi's, except Antifa have larger numbers, which makes them a bigger threat.

No, those were Nazi's. And the reason they are now out in the open is because of all the people the communist group have falsely accused of being Nazi's.
If we didn't have Antifa or BLM creating so much chaos, the small minority of actual Nazi's wouldn't dare come out in the open.

antifa are not communist. They aren't leftists and they aren't righties. They aren't nationalists and obviously, they aren't fascists.

Here you are, angrily accusing "disagreers" of calling everyone Nazis, and yet you don't know what the fuck these anarchists are about. Figure it out before you start making more idiotic posts.

 

[zinfamous]

More than 12 years of lurking and this is the best you could come up with? Sheesh....

I know, right?: "You just call everyone that you 'disagree with,' a Nazi!" ..."And yeah, everyone that does that is a communist!"

wtf. lurking on AT, and lurking away from books and education, it seems.

 

[Blackjack200]

Most of my liberal friends are denouncing the mob take down of statues.

Lol, of course they are.

I am an art and history enthusiast so it breaks my heart when I hear people suddenly destroy these things. Perhaps the next step will be mobs breaking into libraries and burning books...

Well, if you're a history enthusiast you may enjoy the some of the explainers that came out in the last few days on why these statues are, from an artistic or historical perspective, worthless. Don't worry though, if you're that concerned you can have your very own mass produced racism statue for about $500.

From https://qz.com/1054062/statues-of-c...outh-were-cheaply-mass-produced-in-the-north/

A large share of Confederate statues are of nameless, generic soldiers, like the one the protesters took down in Durham. Towns erected them in the early 20th century, decades after the Civil War, because their Confederate mythologies helped to justify Jim Crow laws in the South that oppressed black citizens, Taber Andrew Bain, a librarian at Virginia Commonwealth University, pointed out on Twitter.

The statues are often called the “Silent Sentinel,” “Single Soldier,” or something similar, and depict a regular soldier in Confederate uniform staring solemnly into the distance, at ease, with feet spread—a stance called “parade rest,” according to art historian Lola Arellano-Fryer, who wrote about the statues for Hyperallergic. The statutes proliferated specifically because they were cheap.

To sculpt a statue in marble would have been time-consuming and prohibitively expensive for small towns in the early 1900s. But northern foundries that worked in cast bronze or zinc could churn them out quickly and sell them at much lower costs.

One of the leading manufacturers was the Monumental Bronze Company of Bridgeport, Connecticut, which specialized in a cast zinc it called “white bronze” (a light gray or pale blue color). In 2015, the Associated Press dug into the company's history: It sold life-size statues for just $450 and larger eight-and-a-half foot versions for $750. Commissioning marble or granite statues, meanwhile, would have cost tens of thousands of dollars.

“It’s like going to Wal-Mart,” Timothy S. Sedore, who wrote An Illustrated Guide to Virginia’s Confederate Monuments, told the news wire. “It’s less expensive.”

Sarah Beetham, an art historian at the University of Delaware and an expert on soldier monuments, explained to the AP that as many as half of these citizen-solider statues were in the “Silent Sentinel” style. Southern citizens felt personally connected to them; they commemorated all Confederate soldiers, including their family members who may have fought for the Confederacy.

Because these mass-produced statues were put up on the cheap, they may not have been firmly anchored to their pedestals, making them easy to pull down. That makes them an attractive target for protesters who want to see them, and all they represent, removed.

 

[pmv]

Most of my liberal friends are denouncing the mob take down of statues.

I am an art and history enthusiast so it breaks my heart when I hear people suddenly destroy these things. Perhaps the next step will be mobs breaking into libraries and burning books...

You must have been in a perpetual state of heartbreak when the Soviet Bloc collapsed! All those Lenins and Stalins being toppled and broken up! Oh the humanity! Did you march against the Iraq war out of concern for all the historical artifacts that were doomed to destruction by that invasion, incidentally (not even mentioning the Saddam statue this time - that war led to a vastly greater level of destruction of art and history than a few crap statues)

The guys you are, oddly, choosing to erase from this argument are the ones with the track record for burning books, incidentally.

 

[senseamp]

I am against mobs taking down these statues when the entity whose land they are located on can do so through the democratic process. But Republican legislatures have recently explicitly passed laws banning cities and localities from removing these statues, leaving Lenin/Saddam/etc style takedowns as the only option. A situation where a city that is majority black and/or non-racist white is forced to host statues to people who fought to keep them as slaves, erected during Jim Crow to send a message is a far bigger evil to me than a mob taking these statues down.

 

[apokalipse]

This is really weak stuff.

For starters, if you think Trump saying 'there's blame on many sides' (not to mention that there are 'fine people on both sides') means he's opposing the Nazis you are _incredibly_ naive (and I have this bridge to sell you...).

Saying it's "incredibly naive" is not an argument.

And yeah, you _are_ right wing, or you wouldn't make such a silly argument.

No, you don't get to say that anyone who isn't part of the communist ideology is "right wing", and you certainly don't get to tell me what my politics are. Only I can decide what my politics are.
But it is exactly this attitude from the likes of Antifa that is causing these problems. The Nazi's certainly couldn't have started this chaos on their own, because they never had the numbers for it.

I'm someone who would have voted Democrat before the victim culture of SJW's took hold. I support equal rights, I support gay marriage, I'm pro choice, I don't like a lot of the things the far right religious conservatives stand for. But now, SJW's have managed to become far worse than the conservative right. They've manufactured their own set of factually wrong ideals and instead of actually trying to make arguments to support them, treat anyone who disagrees with them like some sort of sub-human garbage. Just like the Nazi's did to Jews.

Secondly that argument that you are going to 'create the conditions for actual Nazis to grow' is also pretty offensive.

I'm less concerned about whether you decide to be offended as I am with saying what's true.

It sounds like a childish threat. "Say nasty things to me and I'll turn Nazi, so there!".

If your extremeist movement calls normal people "Nazi's" long enough, it is going to make some of them actually become Nazi's. That's not a "threat", that's an observation of what is.

Antifa is trying to gain power by blaming "Nazi's", and the tiny minority of actual Nazi's are now gaining power by pointing to the actions of Antifa. They're both bad ideologies, and they're both polarising people and trying to make people pick sides.

Also you do the usual right-wing thing (clearly you _are_ right-wing) of lumping all leftists together as 'communist'.

Don't lie, I did not lump all leftists together as "communists". I said Antifa is communist, because it is. And Antifa does not represent the entirety of the left, even though it pretends to.

And this is a part of the problem; Antifa is basically trying to pretend to have a monopoly on being "anti Nazi" in order to make people join their communist ideology.

Seems to me that most of the Antifa folk these days are anarchists of some variety.

Antifa's flag is literally the flag of the German communist party of 1932, and you see plenty of them openly waving around the red hammer and sickle flag.

It's weird that the media is all over it when a Nazi flag appears, but they're completely silent when communist flags appear. Why aren't they all over it in both cases?

The reason they're not all over it in both cases is because they're dishonestly covering up the extremism of Antifa, are trying to pretend that only the Nazi's are extreme, and trying to pretend they have much higher numbers than they actually do (Antifa is a much bigger group, which is why they're more dangerous).

Your final line is just beyond ridiculous. Where is all this 'chaos'?

Just look at some of the videos of what happened at the G20, for example. Random cars burned for no apparent reason, millions of dollars worth of property damage.

If only people would shut up and not complain about issues like cops shooting black people, then we wouldn't have Nazis?

No, we would have Nazi's regardless, but if Antifa and BLM weren't crying wolf and causing chaos all the time they wouldn't dare come out into the open, or be able to opportunistically take advantage of the backlash to grow in numbers. They'd simply remain a tiny minority that everybody hates, with maybe a few thousand supporters total at most (more likely just in the hundreds).

Last I heard, the KKK had about 5000 members worldwide - in a population of 7 billion, or even the USA's population of ~300 million that's nothing. Though that number is probably higher now, and it's the fault of groups like Antifa.

Also, the people BLM are trying to defend aren't even innocent in the first place.

 

[Boris Morozov]

BLM releases a list of things white people should do for blacks and browns, and they are still considered well meaning?

Lmao

 

[senseamp]

USSR was communist too, but when they were fighting fascists, even under Stalin, the US put that aside and supported them. That's how important fighting fascism is for America. You don't have to like Antifa politics to support their kicking neonazi butt.