I am Antifa but what they did in Durham was wrong

MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
8,758
43
91
I wish I could be comfortable and strong in my religious beliefs that I could be like those pastors whom the nationalists confronted in Virginia. I wish I could go into the coliseum of old Rome and sing hymns while the lions ate me. But I can't. I have a black spot on my soul from choosing to match violence with violence. I cannot stand by and give "thoughts and prayers" on Facebook to a group of people getting their heads bashed by nazis. I fight back; I always have and I really wish, but I can't, change in the future. Fascism is a very easy thing to slip into and especially as one gets older and has certain expectations of their life and how the world should work. Actually any "-ism" should be met with speculation and concern when the actions or the results mean one group of people must be the scapegoat for the issues being addressed. But fascism...it breaks my heart to see family members turn to it and not see it at all.

That said, a small group of people decided that something bugged them and they felt the current system of laws were not sufficient to address their anger. So as a mob, they put a rope around the object and decided to pronounce their own justice. Sounds exactly like a lynch mob. But you see, people I consider to be thoughtful, caring people were there or cheering them on from afar. But they are wrong, it is like that spectre of fascism that lurks under the veneer of polite civility or the ones who speak about injustice. Also, the Durham city police were ineffectual and totally worthless, claiming the act was on county and not city grounds.

So now there are those who try to call me fascist or saying I'm selling out to the man, because I'm telling them they are wrong. I suspect the most vociferous ones are feeling the heat for realizing they are acting out exactly like the ones they say they are against. It smarts to be called out, right, but you aren't going to back down and apologize because its already done and you actually felt a little thrill being an anarchist while doing so. But that makes you no better than the people you rail against. So calling me names and threatening me shows me you too are a coward in your beliefs.

Here is my point I tell them in parting. Because of what you did, and the lack of response from the police, what is to stop a person from going to a county library, taking all the LGBT books from the children and young adult sections and then setting them on fire outside? It is exactly the same because you are not taking responsibility for your actions which are illegal.

The sad, shake my head thing about this in Durham? The statue was a generic soldier, not anyone in particular, commemorating the men who died in the civil war. This wasn't PT Beauregard, Lee, or Stonewall Jackson. Nope, this was just one of the many, many people who died in the war. North Carolina and Virginia are believed to have lost the most in the war. While they say 25% of the population of the US died in the war, NC carried a an extremely heavy burden losing an estimated 40% of the male population.

Did these men die because they wanted to keep their slaves? Did they die because they felt superior to everyone else? No, most likely they were sold on the horror stories from the wealthy and the politicians who did not want their wealth or political clout diminished. They heard not only about the black man coming to kill them and rape their women, but also the heartless, faithless northerners who will come down to destroy them because they can. No, most likely they fought for the south because they felt like they were defending their land (if they had any), most importantly their families from even worse depredation than their life was now. So when these people decided that statue could not be tolerated any more, there was no city-wide discussion of removing it or perhaps changing the environment, there was only a mob with a noose. So the nameless representation of the common man who fought for a lie and lost so, so much now loses again.

I am antifa but those in Durham, you are anarchists and wrong.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
It seems to me that the City would have removed the statue given the choice. However, the State Government prevented the City from making that choice. This was an act of defiance against an over reaching State Government as much as an act to remove public displays of the Confederacy. This kind of Government over reach seems to be somewhat of a recent phenomena mostly, if not totally, carried out by Republican State Governments wherein they over rule Municipal Governments abilities to enact certain types of local edicts.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,842
9,087
136
I live in Durham...Not sure which group was responsible for Monday's rally but I'm pretty sure it was NOT the Indivisible group I belong to here (I got alerts for a flash vigil on Sunday but never got any alerts for the Monday evening protest from Indivisible.)

That said, I feel the exact same way you do. Perhaps the statue was erected in the 1920s during the height of Jim Crow and not after the war. Perhaps it sat on a pedestal with "Confederate States of America" and not "United States of America". But this statue commemorates "all who wore gray" for whatever reason they served. As Governor Cooper said, "there are better ways to take it down." But as I commented last night in another thread, it seems the state government is partly responsible for not allowing the civic process by which these residents could have voted to remove the statue.
 

EOM

Senior member
Mar 20, 2015
479
14
81
When you use the word 'anarchist' what meaning are you implying?
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,651
10,515
136
I live in Durham...Not sure which group was responsible for Monday's rally but I'm pretty sure it was NOT the Indivisible group I belong to here (I got alerts for a flash vigil on Sunday but never got any alerts for the Monday evening protest from Indivisible.)

That said, I feel the exact same way you do. Perhaps the statue was erected in the 1920s during the height of Jim Crow and not after the war. Perhaps it sat on a pedestal with "Confederate States of America" and not "United States of America". But this statue commemorates "all who wore gray" for whatever reason they served. As Governor Cooper said, "there are better ways to take it down." But as I commented last night in another thread, it seems the state government is partly responsible for not allowing the civic process by which these residents could have voted to remove the statue.
That's the point. These statues were not erected to morn the dead at the end of the war. They were put up after the resurgence of the KKK after the movie "Birth Of a Nation" came out, to great success. These people were celebrating the success of Jim Crowe and honoring traitors to the nation.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,782
1,540
126
I wish I could be comfortable and strong in my religious beliefs that I could be like those pastors whom the nationalists confronted in Virginia. I wish I could go into the coliseum of old Rome and sing hymns while the lions ate me. But I can't. I have a black spot on my soul from choosing to match violence with violence. I cannot stand by and give "thoughts and prayers" on Facebook to a group of people getting their heads bashed by nazis. I fight back; I always have and I really wish, but I can't, change in the future. Fascism is a very easy thing to slip into and especially as one gets older and has certain expectations of their life and how the world should work. Actually any "-ism" should be met with speculation and concern when the actions or the results mean one group of people must be the scapegoat for the issues being addressed. But fascism...it breaks my heart to see family members turn to it and not see it at all.

That said, a small group of people decided that something bugged them and they felt the current system of laws were not sufficient to address their anger. So as a mob, they put a rope around the object and decided to pronounce their own justice. Sounds exactly like a lynch mob. But you see, people I consider to be thoughtful, caring people were there or cheering them on from afar. But they are wrong, it is like that spectre of fascism that lurks under the veneer of polite civility or the ones who speak about injustice. Also, the Durham city police were ineffectual and totally worthless, claiming the act was on county and not city grounds.

So now there are those who try to call me fascist or saying I'm selling out to the man, because I'm telling them they are wrong. I suspect the most vociferous ones are feeling the heat for realizing they are acting out exactly like the ones they say they are against. It smarts to be called out, right, but you aren't going to back down and apologize because its already done and you actually felt a little thrill being an anarchist while doing so. But that makes you no better than the people you rail against. So calling me names and threatening me shows me you too are a coward in your beliefs.

Here is my point I tell them in parting. Because of what you did, and the lack of response from the police, what is to stop a person from going to a county library, taking all the LGBT books from the children and young adult sections and then setting them on fire outside? It is exactly the same because you are not taking responsibility for your actions which are illegal.

The sad, shake my head thing about this in Durham? The statue was a generic soldier, not anyone in particular, commemorating the men who died in the civil war. This wasn't PT Beauregard, Lee, or Stonewall Jackson. Nope, this was just one of the many, many people who died in the war. North Carolina and Virginia are believed to have lost the most in the war. While they say 25% of the population of the US died in the war, NC carried a an extremely heavy burden losing an estimated 40% of the male population.

Did these men die because they wanted to keep their slaves? Did they die because they felt superior to everyone else? No, most likely they were sold on the horror stories from the wealthy and the politicians who did not want their wealth or political clout diminished. They heard not only about the black man coming to kill them and rape their women, but also the heartless, faithless northerners who will come down to destroy them because they can. No, most likely they fought for the south because they felt like they were defending their land (if they had any), most importantly their families from even worse depredation than their life was now. So when these people decided that statue could not be tolerated any more, there was no city-wide discussion of removing it or perhaps changing the environment, there was only a mob with a noose. So the nameless representation of the common man who fought for a lie and lost so, so much now loses again.

I am antifa but those in Durham, you are anarchists and wrong.

I wish you could take a sec and see the statues and confederate flags from the perspective of those who died and were persecuted under it. A portion of the country decided to rise up and fight another because of their desire to keep slaves(and that was the primary reason for the war). It is all but amazing that somehow all these years we have allowed people to celebrate those who did that. It's disgusting and should be intolerable.
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
I understand the OPs sentiment but I will have to respectfully disagree. There was no motivation for secession that did not ultimately come down to the effort to preserve the south's economic dependence on the institution of slavery. I will say that there are certainly better ways to get the memorials and statues removed but to give this one a pass because it was dedicated to the common confederate soldier doesn't hold water. What I would personally like to see is a memorial to all the war dead from both sides as a reminder of a time when our nation attempted to cut its own throat and very nearly succeeded.
 

MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
8,758
43
91
yes, that is true. And given the attitude that Durham as a city displays to the NC General Assembly, they would have removed it contrary to the state. The city, which is almost as large as the county, declared itself a sanctuary city, against the wishes of the NCGA. We have ICE here all the time but we also have a network to help inform where and when they appear. The head of the county voting board, a Republican, told the outgoing Governor to kiss his ass when the GOP challenged Durham's election results. So there is precedent for ignoring the rest of the state.

But there is no excuse here. The mob acted out and the Durham police allowed it to occur.

It seems to me that the City would have removed the statue given the choice. <snip>
 

MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
8,758
43
91
Yes, the memorial to all who died, that I agree. A monument to slavery or the institution that wanted to keep it, no, I don't want that either. I would have voted to remove it or change it but I did not get that chance.

My point is that a mob decided they wanted to remove something and did it. I do not tolerate thug mob mentality. And to declare themselves the judge of what is right or wrong makes them into exactly what they say they are fighting against.

I understand the OPs sentiment but I will have to respectfully disagree. There was no motivation for secession that did not ultimately come down to the effort to preserve the south's economic dependence on the institution of slavery. I will say that there are certainly better ways to get the memorials and statues removed but to give this one a pass because it was dedicated to the common confederate soldier doesn't hold water. What I would personally like to see is a memorial to all the war dead from both sides as a reminder of a time when our nation attempted to cut its own throat and very nearly succeeded.
 
Reactions: NesuD and pcgeek11

MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
8,758
43
91
Oh, in Durham, we never listen to the NCGA. We've told Governors and the state assembly to fuck off or come get us all the time. I just wanted it to be a community based decision and one that takes the hate out of it.
 
Reactions: NesuD

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
91
I wish I could be comfortable and strong in my religious beliefs that I could be like those pastors whom the nationalists confronted in Virginia. I wish I could go into the coliseum of old Rome and sing hymns while the lions ate me. But I can't. I have a black spot on my soul from choosing to match violence with violence. I cannot stand by and give "thoughts and prayers" on Facebook to a group of people getting their heads bashed by nazis. I fight back; I always have and I really wish, but I can't, change in the future. Fascism is a very easy thing to slip into and especially as one gets older and has certain expectations of their life and how the world should work. Actually any "-ism" should be met with speculation and concern when the actions or the results mean one group of people must be the scapegoat for the issues being addressed. But fascism...it breaks my heart to see family members turn to it and not see it at all.

That said, a small group of people decided that something bugged them and they felt the current system of laws were not sufficient to address their anger. So as a mob, they put a rope around the object and decided to pronounce their own justice. Sounds exactly like a lynch mob. But you see, people I consider to be thoughtful, caring people were there or cheering them on from afar. But they are wrong, it is like that spectre of fascism that lurks under the veneer of polite civility or the ones who speak about injustice. Also, the Durham city police were ineffectual and totally worthless, claiming the act was on county and not city grounds.

So now there are those who try to call me fascist or saying I'm selling out to the man, because I'm telling them they are wrong. I suspect the most vociferous ones are feeling the heat for realizing they are acting out exactly like the ones they say they are against. It smarts to be called out, right, but you aren't going to back down and apologize because its already done and you actually felt a little thrill being an anarchist while doing so. But that makes you no better than the people you rail against. So calling me names and threatening me shows me you too are a coward in your beliefs.

Here is my point I tell them in parting. Because of what you did, and the lack of response from the police, what is to stop a person from going to a county library, taking all the LGBT books from the children and young adult sections and then setting them on fire outside? It is exactly the same because you are not taking responsibility for your actions which are illegal.

The sad, shake my head thing about this in Durham? The statue was a generic soldier, not anyone in particular, commemorating the men who died in the civil war. This wasn't PT Beauregard, Lee, or Stonewall Jackson. Nope, this was just one of the many, many people who died in the war. North Carolina and Virginia are believed to have lost the most in the war. While they say 25% of the population of the US died in the war, NC carried a an extremely heavy burden losing an estimated 40% of the male population.

Did these men die because they wanted to keep their slaves? Did they die because they felt superior to everyone else? No, most likely they were sold on the horror stories from the wealthy and the politicians who did not want their wealth or political clout diminished. They heard not only about the black man coming to kill them and rape their women, but also the heartless, faithless northerners who will come down to destroy them because they can. No, most likely they fought for the south because they felt like they were defending their land (if they had any), most importantly their families from even worse depredation than their life was now. So when these people decided that statue could not be tolerated any more, there was no city-wide discussion of removing it or perhaps changing the environment, there was only a mob with a noose. So the nameless representation of the common man who fought for a lie and lost so, so much now loses again.

I am antifa but those in Durham, you are anarchists and wrong.

You're antifa?

Go fuck yourself, you're no better than the Nazis and those people you "denounce" make up 100% of the antifa.

We've dealt with them for a long time, they like to fight the EDL but they consider anyone not anarcho-communist to be their enemy. They have attacked the families of Libdems and Tories and they continuously hold vigils for their imprisoned terrorist "comrades" that rioted at the G* meetings.

Fuck you antifa, you are as much a threat to modern society as your bestest friends the Nazists.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Oh, in Durham, we never listen to the NCGA. We've told Governors and the state assembly to fuck off or come get us all the time. I just wanted it to be a community based decision and one that takes the hate out of it.
The legislature foreclosed that. So down they go the other way.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
everybody involved in taking this down needs to go to jail. the city police chief needs to resign for not stopping vandalism and the city need to put up a new statue.
 
Reactions: EXman

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
I generally advocate people doing things by the books, but part of why the Republicans are doing so many heinous things right now is because they assume they'll face no repercussions for it. When you've rigged voter ID laws, gerrymandered districts and have moved to a culture where people are supposedly past taking things into their own hands, why not enshrine racism, pull life-saving regulations, or steal health care from 23 million people?

This is a small reminder to the GOP that their policies affect real people, and that they have their limits.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
everybody involved in taking this down needs to go to jail. the city police chief needs to resign for not stopping vandalism and the city need to put up a new statue.

You know people will just tear down that one (or block the installation) as soon as it goes up, right?
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
91
everybody involved in taking this down needs to go to jail. the city police chief needs to resign for not stopping vandalism and the city need to put up a new statue.

I think the statue should be removed, I think that it needed to be removed but I agree with you. I do wonder if you feel the same when states are subverting the constitution to ensure that women can't get abortions though.

If you don't, you are as bad as these people are and as anti-liberty and anti-democracy as they are.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
91
I generally advocate people doing things by the books, but part of why the Republicans are doing so many heinous things right now is because they assume they'll face no repercussions for it. When you've rigged voter ID laws, gerrymandered districts and have moved to a culture where people are supposedly past taking things into their own hands, why not enshrine racism, pull life-saving regulations, or steal health care from 23 million people?

This is a small reminder to the GOP that their policies affect real people, and that they have their limits.

Really? Tit for tat?

I expected more from you.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,354
11,725
136
I'm not antifa, think that if you march/protest with your face covered, you should be stopped and identified by the cops...and maybe arrested, BUT, I also think the fuckwads who tore down this statue should all be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Their "feels" don't give them the right to destroy property...public or private.
 
Reactions: OutHouse

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
91
I'm not antifa, think that if you march/protest with your face covered, you should be stopped and identified by the cops...and maybe arrested, BUT, I also think the fuckwads who tore down this statue should all be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Their "feels" don't give them the right to destroy property...public or private.

Just read up on the matter, almost everyone wanted it gone but the democratic route to get it done was closed by the legislature.

I'm still anti-antifa because they are an enemy of democracy and liberalism but the truth is, the people got their will which is the way it should be.

Fuck politicians restricting the will of the people.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
Really? Tit for tat?

I expected more from you.

I'm not saying tit-for-tat, and I wouldn't have urged them to pull it down in the first place. But am I surprised, or feeling sorry for the politicians and supporters who wanted the statue to stay? Hell no.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,299
2,097
126
Antifa is a bunch of thugs and should be arrested if they break the law along with the Neo Nazis, etc.

No more radicals!

edit: Nice post, OP. Well thought out and honest opinion.
 
Reactions: OutHouse

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
I wish I could be comfortable and strong in my religious beliefs that I could be like those pastors whom the nationalists confronted in Virginia. I wish I could go into the coliseum of old Rome and sing hymns while the lions ate me. But I can't. I have a black spot on my soul from choosing to match violence with violence. I cannot stand by and give "thoughts and prayers" on Facebook to a group of people getting their heads bashed by nazis. I fight back; I always have and I really wish, but I can't, change in the future. Fascism is a very easy thing to slip into and especially as one gets older and has certain expectations of their life and how the world should work. Actually any "-ism" should be met with speculation and concern when the actions or the results mean one group of people must be the scapegoat for the issues being addressed. But fascism...it breaks my heart to see family members turn to it and not see it at all.

That said, a small group of people decided that something bugged them and they felt the current system of laws were not sufficient to address their anger. So as a mob, they put a rope around the object and decided to pronounce their own justice. Sounds exactly like a lynch mob. But you see, people I consider to be thoughtful, caring people were there or cheering them on from afar. But they are wrong, it is like that spectre of fascism that lurks under the veneer of polite civility or the ones who speak about injustice. Also, the Durham city police were ineffectual and totally worthless, claiming the act was on county and not city grounds.

So now there are those who try to call me fascist or saying I'm selling out to the man, because I'm telling them they are wrong. I suspect the most vociferous ones are feeling the heat for realizing they are acting out exactly like the ones they say they are against. It smarts to be called out, right, but you aren't going to back down and apologize because its already done and you actually felt a little thrill being an anarchist while doing so. But that makes you no better than the people you rail against. So calling me names and threatening me shows me you too are a coward in your beliefs.

Here is my point I tell them in parting. Because of what you did, and the lack of response from the police, what is to stop a person from going to a county library, taking all the LGBT books from the children and young adult sections and then setting them on fire outside? It is exactly the same because you are not taking responsibility for your actions which are illegal.

The sad, shake my head thing about this in Durham? The statue was a generic soldier, not anyone in particular, commemorating the men who died in the civil war. This wasn't PT Beauregard, Lee, or Stonewall Jackson. Nope, this was just one of the many, many people who died in the war. North Carolina and Virginia are believed to have lost the most in the war. While they say 25% of the population of the US died in the war, NC carried a an extremely heavy burden losing an estimated 40% of the male population.

Did these men die because they wanted to keep their slaves? Did they die because they felt superior to everyone else? No, most likely they were sold on the horror stories from the wealthy and the politicians who did not want their wealth or political clout diminished. They heard not only about the black man coming to kill them and rape their women, but also the heartless, faithless northerners who will come down to destroy them because they can. No, most likely they fought for the south because they felt like they were defending their land (if they had any), most importantly their families from even worse depredation than their life was now. So when these people decided that statue could not be tolerated any more, there was no city-wide discussion of removing it or perhaps changing the environment, there was only a mob with a noose. So the nameless representation of the common man who fought for a lie and lost so, so much now loses again.

I am antifa but those in Durham, you are anarchists and wrong.

The same could said of the germans and italians, you know the people the antifa aren't exactly supposed to sympathize with.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
529
106
Really? Tit for tat?

I expected more from you.

How is removing a monument tit for tat when dealing with active violence and systematic oppression?

If you're going to equivocate on whether actively pursuing policies that kill people and undermine democracy is worse than property damage, you really ought to go take a long hard think about what you're actually supporting in deed if not in word.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
I can't believe in this day and age in America people are dying over statues.
I can't think of a single memorial in the entire united states that to me would be worth the level of debate, angst, and bloodshed that has been spent on this confederacy relic issue.
If a large group of people tomorrow rose up and said they wanted the lincoln memorial gone, I'd ask a few questions but I don't think I'd be marching in the streets or passing laws restricting their ability to get rid of the lincoln memorial. It's just a statue that represents an idea. You'd think to these people the idea is more important than the brick and mortar.
 
Reactions: pauldun170
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |