I didn't realize how popular Macs were

[BurnItDwn]

Windows Key

I don't have that one yet...

Some day maybe

But I use buckling springs, so I haven't needed to buy a new keyboard for a long long long long long time.

 

[HeXen]

We don't have much luck with Windows laptops around our house as far as longevity. I have 2 that only partially work and the newest one my wife uses no longer has an S key.

Investment would assume appreciated value. It's more along the lines of reduced risk. They hold their value very well and can be easily resold to offset the costs of newer ones. Very few other products can claim the same. It's just one nice perk that's a byproduct of a quality product that is in demand.

Wish I could say that for my Ipad 1. It's only worth $39 in the best of shape.:\

 

[vi edit]

We don't have much luck with Windows laptops around our house as far as longevity. I have 2 that only partially work and the newest one my wife uses no longer has an S key.



Wish I could say that for my Ipad 1. It's only worth $39 in the best of shape.:\

Huh? Amazon trade in shows $110 trade in for "good shape". And the iPad isn't as good as an example as a laptop. The performance, screen quality and other "guts" of it have evolved much faster than the incrementals that something like a MBA have over a similar time line.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Macs are probably 2 to 1 at my campus as well.

To be fair, people don't compare like to like. They buy some $1200 Apple laptop and then compare it to some crappy $500 Windows one their friend has. Of course the Apple will be better. $1200 Windows laptops are nice as well.

 

[Tyranicus]

Even better for me is one note or snipping tool(win7) that lets me actually select the area that I want and then save it under a meaningful name.

In addition to the various key commands, there is an app analogous to the snipping tool in OS X. It's called Grab, and it's in the Utilities folder.

 

[Zaap]

In three years will that $200 video card still have 50%-60% of it's value?

First off, it's a GOOD THING that a three year old PC video card doesn't sell for all that much. It means in three years $200 will get you a lot better video card, and older video cards will cost a lot less. Judging hardware totally on a one-sided view of resale value is really kind of silly. Both sides= For every seller selling something old and outdated for an exorbitant price, there's a *buyer* getting ripped off buying something old and outdated for an exorbitant price.


And anyway, what's the big deal about a $200 video card? (which can be found for $160). Maybe if it was a $500 video card you'd have a point. Meanwhile, try the ultra-ripoff of replacing a video card in a Mac Pro sometime. Talk about price gouging. There are things to cite in Mac vs. PC cost/quality arguments, but come on, video cards sure as hell aren't in the Mac column.


Anyway...

Some funny assertions in this thread. Taking a screen cap on a Mac is bone simple, with plenty of options. (Full screen, single window, selected area.) Anyone who can manage to skew it as complicated in OSX, just... turn in your "power user" badge right now. 'Cause you aren't one. Not that it's particularly difficult in other OS's either, but it sure as hell isn't on a Mac.

I'm one of those people, I can buy an $80 used laptop at a computer show, and use it for nearly a decade and not have a single problem with it. (Still have two Compaq Evo laptops -2003's version of an ultra-book- in perfect working order.) http://images.enet.com.cn/iflow/articleimage/200210/1034762230481.jpg

People that can't own a modern laptop of virtually any decent brand without breaking it baffle me. To me, adults like that must handle things the way my toddler does. Sure thing, a $300 laptop isn't going to have the same quality as a $1200 laptop (duh) but it's not like the $300 laptop will be made out of eggshells either. But then again, I've talked to people that literally THROW their laptops around, who then crow on about how much they have to pay for 'quality' (IE: compensating for their carelessness).

That said: I'm absolutely sold on the 15" retina MacBook Pro. Simply the best laptop I've ever owned. I couldn't blame anyone for wanting this level of quality. The main thing is the screen- now that I've owned a screen this good that allows me to get things done anywhere nearly as comfortably as sitting in my office using my desktops, I'd have a hard time going back to a lesser screen. Last year, I was perfectly happy using an HP ProBook 4530s running OSX Mountain Lion, but the MacBook has surpassed all my expectations of laptop quality.

I still don't care much for any Mac desktop (and that term is getting harder to even use with Apple's lineup) but for laptops they can't be beat. And Windows 7 (or 8 if I was a sadist) works just fine on the MacBook, so really it's like two laptops for the price of one. So people should remember before being too critical of the price of Apple's laptops that you are getting both a Mac and a PC. With most PCs (unless you're a Hackintosh type) you're not getting the Mac side. You could say 'so what' but for someone that needs Mac software like say Final Cut, having both in one can't be beat.

I've almost considered nuking Windows 7 off my MacBook because I rarely see the need to boot into it. All my work that pays bills gets done on the Mac side.

For me- it's not about platform warrior nonsense, or all the nonsensical platitudes people can spout evangelizing one OS vs the others- it's about applications. So long as Apple has the applications I need to get things done, (Final Cut mainly) I'll be using OSX. Until I can get a PC with as high res a screen as the retina MacBooks, that can be made to run OSX reliably, I'll be using a genuine MacBook.

 

[StinkyPinky]

I tend to agree, although that new haswell Dell XPS 15 looks mighty nice. Better specs overall and from user reports an even nicer screen.

I think I've gone past the days of having a cheap ass laptop. I'd rather spend more and get quality that lasts and doesn't burn your eyeballs.

 

[StinkyPinky]

I tend to agree, although that new haswell Dell XPS 15 looks mighty nice. Better specs overall and from user reports an even nicer screen.

I think I've gone past the days of having a cheap ass laptop. I'd rather spend more and get quality that lasts and doesn't burn your eyeballs.

 

[Zaap]

In addition to the various key commands, there is an app analogous to the snipping tool in OS X. It's called Grab, and it's in the Utilities folder.

Cool- never even used that tool before.

I like how QuickTime has built-in screen video recording. You can capture the whole screen, or just a selection. The movies it generates are extremely compressed file size, but look great. It's a nice tool for quick-building tutorials and such.

 

[MrX8503]

People get the wrong impression of PCs when they compare computers from a decade ago to current Macs. "HPs and Dells". Sorry, but you should be comparing to ASUS, Lenovo, and Microsoft Surface. In those areas PCs have just as capable and some as solidly and beautifully built computers as Apple, and potentially much cheaper.

You can't blame them when the Macbook Pro's design came from the 2008 Unibody. That's around 5 YEARS AGO! Apple has taken the time to create this high quality public outlook for themselves. On the Windows side, they're just now creating competitive machines. The machines that are competitive still can't compete with Apple IMO.

 

[Ichinisan]

You can't blame them when the Macbook Pro's design came from the 2008 Unibody. That's around 5 YEARS AGO! Apple has taken the time to create this high quality public outlook for themselves. On the Windows side, they're just now creating competitive machines. The machines that are competitive still can't compete with Apple IMO.

I think it's funny how, historically, Apple has been a trend setter with design. With iOS 7, Apple is kinda just following the trend.

Transparent colored gadgets were insanely common after the original iMac (ugh). DS Lite, Wii were clearly influenced by Apple design. Even the XBOX 360. Heck, my old WD Passport drives (the earlier models) looked like the iPod video (black) and black DS Lite.

Now, we see lots of aluminum style PCs and Ultrabooks that look very similar to Apple designs. I can't believe how much the white Galaxy Note 3 resembles the iPad mini (in pictures...I haven't actually held one).

This "flat" UI trend started even before Windows 8. At first, I really didn't like when the Google Chrome icon suddenly changed. Now it seems more appropriate since everything else has gone flat.

 

[TreVader]

I tend to agree, although that new haswell Dell XPS 15 looks mighty nice. Better specs overall and from user reports an even nicer screen.

I think I've gone past the days of having a cheap ass laptop. I'd rather spend more and get quality that lasts and doesn't burn your eyeballs.

Dell quality has fallen to record low levels since they made the best laptops on the market circa 2003-2006.

The issue with PCs isn't specs, in most ways PCs will outperform macs in any one area (screen, speed, storage). The thing they never get right is the total package. Every single aspect of a Macbook Air or Pro is at least GOOD, most of it is excellent. The keyboard, trackpad, etc are all excellent.

With an XPS it will probably be faster, it might even have a better screen but I can guarantee the keyboard, trackpad, and general look of the thing aren't up to par with a MBP... and on specs the XPS isn't likely to leave the MBP behind anywhere (the exception being gaming performance).

At this point, there are only two reasons to buy a PC laptop: A) You want it to play games and B) You MUST have Windows (for quickbooks or whatever) and Bootcamp is a hassle

I guess a 3rd reason, which is more valid than the last two is C)You want to spend less than $1k on your laptop.

That is the biggest and most relevant reason to buy a PC. They shouldn't even bother making anything between a top-spec gaming Laptop and a cheap but functional deal. There is no market for midrange-highend PCs without great gaming performance.



Anyway none of this says that PC Laptops can't be brought up to the level that Macs are now. If hp or Dell committed to building a laptop that was super well crafted and were OK losing margins on it just to get the factory tooled to produce in quantity they could even surpass Mac.

But they won't risk it. They've basically given up on taking back the home PC/laptop market.

 

[Zaap]

I can't believe how much the white Galaxy Note 3 resembles the iPad mini (in pictures...I haven't actually held one).

An interesting, but odd comparison. (And IMO, 100% off the mark)

If anything, the Note 3 resembles the original SGS2. Not to mention the Note 1, Note 2 and SGS4.

And citing the iPad mini as an example of others copying Apple is really skewed- considering that Apple was the company sworn against smaller tablets by Jobs himself. They were way late to the party with a > 10" tablet, meanwhile Samsung's very first foray into them was the 7" Galaxy tab in 2010.

 

[ControlD]

That is the biggest and most relevant reason to buy a PC. They shouldn't even bother making anything between a top-spec gaming Laptop and a cheap but functional deal. There is no market for midrange-highend PCs without great gaming performance.

Rubbish. My job requires a powerful processing PC, but graphics performance isn't a concern at all. All of us working here in fact have the same requirements, so I would say there is certainly a need and a market for exactly mid to high range PCs without gaming level graphics. Perhaps your statement holds true for home users, but in the business world it is quite the opposite.

Because every piece of software I run is Windows exclusive, there is exactly zero reason to consider a Mac as my work computer.

 

[vi edit]

Rubbish. My job requires a powerful processing PC, but graphics performance isn't a concern at all. All of us working here in fact have the same requirements, so I would say there is certainly a need and a market for exactly mid to high range PCs without gaming level graphics. Perhaps your statement holds true for home users, but in the business world it is quite the opposite.

At home I'm running a "Mid to high end" rig with the built in HD4000 intel graphics. My 6 year old Core 2 Duo machine was taking upwards of 8 hours to rip and encode Blu Ray movies. My new quad core i5 setup can do the same job in under 2 hours. Media streaming in the home and managing that content isn't video card intensive in a gaming sense. But it's very disk I/O and CPU demanding.

 

[Ns1]

At this point, there are only two reasons to buy a PC laptop: A) You want it to play games and B) You MUST have Windows (for quickbooks or whatever) and Bootcamp is a hassle

I guess a 3rd reason, which is more valid than the last two is C)You want to spend less than $1k on your laptop.

4) you hate apple because of reasons

I agree with this post.

 

[TreVader]

Rubbish. My job requires a powerful processing PC, but graphics performance isn't a concern at all. All of us working here in fact have the same requirements, so I would say there is certainly a need and a market for exactly mid to high range PCs without gaming level graphics. Perhaps your statement holds true for home users, but in the business world it is quite the opposite.

Because every peice of software I run is Windows exclusive, there is exactly zero reason to consider a Mac as my work computer.

What software is windows exclusive and won't run on a $700-800 Ultrabook?

BTW you realize video editing and photoshop/illustrator all use your graphics card to render previews. So if you have no dedicated graphics, you might as well be running half the cores at half the frequency. Rendering will still be faster with dedicated graphics (aka gaming laptop).

 

[TreVader]

An interesting, but odd comparison. (And IMO, 100% off the mark)

If anything, the Note 3 resembles the original SGS2. Not to mention the Note 1, Note 2 and SGS4.

And citing the iPad mini as an example of others copying Apple is really skewed- considering that Apple was the company sworn against smaller tablets by Jobs himself. They were way late to the party with a > 10" tablet, meanwhile Samsung's very first foray into them was the 7" Galaxy tab in 2010.

Wow it's HUGE! I was considering not buying an S4 to wait for that, but I ended up just buying the S4 (which i now consider a mistake).


I don't know why apple refuses to step into the phablet market. It's very much real and people do have a use for phones that double as tablets. My guess would be within 18 months apple will change it's mind on a 6-7" Phablet.

 

[Ichinisan]

An interesting, but odd comparison. (And IMO, 100% off the mark)

If anything, the Note 3 resembles the original SGS2. Not to mention the Note 1, Note 2 and SGS4.

And citing the iPad mini as an example of others copying Apple is really skewed- considering that Apple was the company sworn against smaller tablets by Jobs himself. They were way late to the party with a > 10" tablet, meanwhile Samsung's very first foray into them was the 7" Galaxy tab in 2010.

< = "less than"

Anyway, try a white iPad mini.

We know Jobs was against the idea of a smaller tablet, initially. I read an account from someone close to Jobs (I think it was his biographer) that said he actually did warm up to the idea of a smaller tablet and actually made the decision before he died that led to the iPad mini. Even if he hadn't, market forces demanded it. It would have happened.

I am 90% certain that there will be a larger-screen option for iPhone next year. Market forces demand it. Screen size is one of the only things that ever drives an iPhone user to an Android phone.

You really think the Note 3 white would exist with that look if Apple designs had never existed? High-end gadgets were almost never white before iPod. Apple definitely set a trend there.

 

[ControlD]

What software is windows exclusive and won't run on a $700-800 Ultrabook?

BTW you realize video editing and photoshop/illustrator all use your graphics card to render previews. So if you have no dedicated graphics, you might as well be running half the cores at half the frequency. Rendering will still be faster with dedicated graphics (aka gaming laptop).

I'm an engineer not a graphics design guy, so there is no rendering here. All of my software is related to the controls industry which is pretty much 100% Windows software. The more cores, more RAM and more speed the better.

 

[TreVader]

I'm an engineer not a graphics design guy, so there is no rendering here. All of my software is related to the controls industry which is pretty much 100% Windows software. The more cores, more RAM and more speed the better.

I'll have to take your word for it then because I don't know what software you're talking about.


So, your case aside, there is still no market for a high end midrange PC. Unless you believe Dell should design a laptop for you specifically, and market it nationwide.

 

[Eug]

I really don't understand these arguments. Just because you can run Windows on a Mac doesn't mean you necessarily should. If I were a Windows-only person, I probably would not buy a Mac, regardless of the class of machine I was looking at.

 

[ControlD]

I'll have to take your word for it then because I don't know what software you're talking about.


So, your case aside, there is still no market for a high end midrange PC. Unless you believe Dell should design a laptop for you specifically, and market it nationwide.

The fact that any engineer doing similar work to mine (and there are a lot of them) in the controls industry needs a mid to high end PC pretty much proves that argument to be wrong I think. It might be hard to believe, but there are actually people out there doing intensive compute work that isn't graphics design / rendering / whatever video intensive term you want to give it. That requires exactly this useless PC you are arguing shouldn't exist.

Example software if you really want it:

Siemens Step 7
Siemens TIA Portal
Bosch-Rexroth Indraworks
Hypermill
(lots of lots of others as well)

 

[TreVader]

The fact that any engineer doing similar work to mine (and there are a lot of them) in the controls industry needs a mid to high end PC pretty much proves that argument to be wrong I think. It might be hard to believe, but there are actually people out there doing intensive compute work that isn't graphics design / rendering / whatever video intensive term you want to give it. That requires exactly this useless PC you are arguing shouldn't exist.

Example software if you really want it:

Siemens Step 7
Siemens TIA Portal
Bosch-Rexroth Indraworks
Hypermill
(lots of lots of others as well)

That's the thing, it actually doesn't require the PC you suggest. A gaming PC with a high end quad core i7 would be capable of running that software probably faster than even a high end normal laptop.

There is no reason for anyone to design a laptop for software that is focused on one part of the engineering field. The vast majority of engineers don't touch that software because it doesn't apply to their field and of the number that do, how many are going to buy a laptop and of that number, how many MUST have a laptop without good graphics (gaming) performance? The number is exceedingly small.

You've already made yourselves a captive audience by using software that won't run on a Mac. If they don't make these laptops, what will you do? Stop using the software, or buy either an ultra book or a gaming PC?

 

[ControlD]

That's the thing, it actually doesn't require the PC you suggest. A gaming PC with a high end quad core i7 would be capable of running that software probably faster than even a high end normal laptop.

There is no reason for anyone to design a laptop for software that is focused on one part of the engineering field. The vast majority of engineers don't touch that software because it doesn't apply to their field and of the number that do, how many are going to buy a laptop and of that number, how many MUST have a laptop without good graphics (gaming) performance? The number is exceedingly small.

You've already made yourselves a captive audience by using software that won't run on a Mac. If they don't make these laptops, what will you do? Stop using the software, or buy either an ultra book or a gaming PC?

I think you are missing my point. I'm not asking anybody to start marking the type of laptop I need for my work, they already exist by the dozens. You are asking them to stop making such machines because you feel they are not needed which is not the case. Hell, Apple themselves make just such a machine: MBPs without discrete graphics. The only difference between a high end and "gaming" laptop is that the former is more than likely running on integrated graphics. Why do I need a power sucking, battery draining discrete graphics chip when my laptop will go its' entire life without accelerating anything more than the Aero interface?

I'm only a "captive audience" because I actually work in industry. There are zero, and I mean zip, zilch, nada Mac alternatives to any software products we use. I don't get to chose most of the products I am developing solutions for because I am doing work for huge companies that make those decisions. I doubt there ever will be Mac versions. Industry runs on Windows and Linux. I guess managers and accountants might be able to use a Mac, but technical people require something else. There is a huge market for powerful (yet not "gaming") machines out there. If Dell stops making them we will simply move on to someone else that does.


** Edit for clarity ***

My work PC is a Dell with a high end quad core i7, 8GB RAM, 7200RPM drive, 1920x1200 resolution. That is what I could classify as a mid to high end machine, It runs on discrete graphics however which helps keep the cost and power consumption down. That is a powerful machine, and you can find similar from any number of suppliers. It isn't custom made for engineers, it is made for people that need to get work done.