"I Don't get all the hate for Dragon Age 2" - Take 2

[Red Storm]

Let's see...

Reused maps/levels

Changed art style from DA:O (not that big of a deal, but it's still a step down)

Crazy combat animations (people inexplicably teleporting/flying around the battlefield turning enemies into red water balloons)

Reused maps/levels

Spawning mobs that appear literally out of thin air (or the ceiling), negating any need for formation tactics

A story that is anything but engaging. The game feels like nothing more than a series of side quests

Reused maps/levels

It's amazing that DA:O and DA2 were made by the same company.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Let's see...

Reused maps/levels

Changed art style from DA:O (not that big of a deal, but it's still a step down)

Crazy combat animations (people inexplicably teleporting/flying around the battlefield turning enemies into red water balloons)

Reused maps/levels

Spawning mobs that appear literally out of thin air (or the ceiling), negating any need for formation tactics

A story that is anything but engaging. The game feels like nothing more than a series of side quests

Reused maps/levels

It's amazing that DA:O and DA2 were made by the same company.

Is Bioware really the same company anymore??? After turning KOTOR into an MMO and dumbing down Dragon Age, I am not so sure. Their main strength was high quality, single player RPGs. Now???

My only hope for another good Bioware game is Mass Effect 3. I really hope they dont screw that up, and that they make an epic story with a climactic ending, not some rushed ending or cliff hanger or some other cheap trick that tries to milk some more money out of the franchise.

 

[Zenoth]

NOTE: I posted the following approximately four months ago in another thread (The Witcher 2 VS DA2), so I'll just copy-paste it in reply to this thread's subject. I think that many gamers need to reconsider a lot concerning DA2, especially those whom pointed at BioWare from the start:

--------

« I'd like to say something about Dragon Age 2, not that it matters much, but I had an interesting "debate" about it with friends lately (part of the subject at hand is something that even Brent Knowles acknowledged, a veteran lead designer who has worked for BioWare for years). Basically, in the end, Dragon Age 2 is nothing short of an accomplishment, and this requires some explanation doesn't it...

The thing is EA wanted BioWare to rush DA2, we know that... or do we? Lots of people are pointing at BioWare, but are they really responsible? Say... imagine that you're a very talented and renowned artist, 9 out of 10 of your creations are beloved by the "majority" out there, and suddenly your boss asks you to... no... ORDERS you to "do that" with a third the amount of time you'd normally be working on that project to make it just as good if not better than what you've done in your career, would that be possible? How long have BioWare worked on DAO? Even if we remove a year of development just for the engine, and another year to create the rich lore and the characters, we still get a good two years and a half, if not even more than three years of development on it. If at the time BioWare themselves would have limited themselves to develop DAO for just ONE year instead, and then would have forced themselves to release the resulting product, do you guys think that we would have ended up with all those Origins to play in? With all those races to chose from? With the not-so-linear game-play? With the unique design for pretty much every maps? With the varied party banter? No, not at all, we might have ended up with just two Origins, perhaps even just a single one, heck the game's title might just have been "Dragon Age", period (heck, it WAS called just "Dragon Age" back in 2004 when it was announced at that year's E3).

Now on to Dragon Age 2, they started development on it sometime in early 2010, and they announced it in summer of the same year, and next thing you know in February of THIS YEAR the game was Gold already. For all we know BioWare PROBABLY had no more than a single year to work on a "Dragon Age: Origins" sequel, can any of you understand how IMPOSSIBLE even for BioWare it was to make an actual direct sequel to the events and/or characters' story arc(s) that occurred in Origins in just that ridiculous amount of time that they disposed of to work on it? Within that same year of development they had to work on the new engine updates, the new dialog, the "story", make new animations, new sounds, new textures, new maps... guys, they had to "make a sequel" for crying out loud! Let me put it this way, can any of you guys seriously and objectively think of a SINGLE developer out there who could have possibly done the exact same work and came up with the exact same DA2 that we have now with the exact same amount of time that BioWare had to work on it? Blizzard? No, they don't make games like that, Blizzard makes MMORPGs, RTS'es and ARPGs. Ubisoft? LoL? Some European developer? Never. CD Projekt? Maybe, in a decade perhaps (if any of you can confirm that CD Projekt worked on TW2 for just a single year and came up with that, I'll gladly stand corrected and change my mind immediately about everything I'm saying here), Valve? Erm yeah sure, haha (I guess they could make new hats for the main characters in DA3 though, that'd be nice)... ok seriously though who else... well I'll let your imagination light itself up and let me know when you find one.

Am I saying that DA2 is some sort of a new standard in video gaming? No, if you think so you misunderstood what I'm trying to say. Am I saying that with the amount of time that BioWare disposed of to work on nothing else than a DAO sequel they managed to make DA2 as it is makes them good? Well yes, but hey, we knew that BioWare is a good developer already, Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, Mass Effect, DAO... heck even MDK2, name it and it's most likely very good, or at worst it's still good... and that's exactly what I'm saying. Basically BioWare had NO choice to take shortcuts, NO choice to reduce the story to the most basic they could think of in their veteran gaming-developers mind, NO choice to repeat the same musical themes (something that the composer admitted due to EA wanting to rush the damn thing), NO choice to "streamline" things left and right, NO choice but to re-use the same environments they managed to create in the first place (we should consider ourselves lucky that they actually had the time to even create Kirkwall in the first place)... the game was rushed, seriously you guys think that the DA2 team suddenly woke up a morning, smiled and over-joyed themselves at the thought of rushing the game on purpose? BioWare is just another victim of EA's greed and indifference to video games' actual quality and content, if a game can be patched they don't mind, they could release a Beta game tomorrow, convince the developer to call it a full game even though they know internally that it's just a turd and not ready, patch it one or two times and call it a night, that's EA, not BioWare.

I was VERY surprised by the outcry from the so called BioWare "fans" out there IMMEDIATELY pointing at BioWare as being the ONLY and universal cause for what happened with DA2. It's a turd, yeah most likely, I haven't finished it yet myself, still in the "first chapter" I believe, I don't particularly like it, but when I'm playing it, seeing the environment, the animations, hearing the music, the voice acting, the dialog itself, the "story", experiencing the new combat system they made, seeing that they managed to find some time in all that to still allow you to import a DAO/Witch Hunt saved game to DA2 (I have yet to see what kind of implications it'll bring in the game, haven't seen anything relevant yet from what I have done in my canon DAO game that I chose to import other than talking to Bohdan and Sandal and him mentioning my character and her being the hero of Fereldan, that's pretty much about it so far)... I mean I'm seeing and experiencing it and you know what? Instead of "complaining" because heck believe me I could, the only reasoned conclusion I can possibly come up with is that DA2 is nothing short of a miracle for being a game that has been developed for JUST a year and was supposed to be the "sequel" (and isn't, for those very reasons I'm repeating to this point) of the monumentally epic DA:O, if they managed to do THAT in ONE year to DA2, I CAN imagine that if they disposed of "enough time" (say... three or four years) to make a "proper" DA3 then oh my God...

To me, DA2 is the PROOF that BioWare IS a well-past veteran status developer in video gaming development for having being able to make a game like that in just that amount of time. Yes, I'm sorry for the haters out there, but they are. Is DA2 "good"? Well so far I don't like it much, to be honest, but objectively and I'll repeat myself again, for the last time, when seeing what was done and considering they only had about a year or around a year and a half to work on "that", well yeah, that's the point, it's a good accomplishment for a "rushed" game. I've played much worse "rushed" games out there guys let me tell you, but I'll stop my praising of BioWare right here, it should suffice, feel free to disagree. I just feel very sorry for BioWare, and they are the meat shield for EA right now, they (BioWare) are taking the blames even though we all love to hate (and with good reasons) EA, why suddenly ignoring EA (for the most part I mean) and pointing at BioWare? It was a damn waste, and DA2 should have never been rushed, EA should have never touched DA2's development time in any way, shape or form, they should have known better, BioWare know what they want and what they need, one of those things they need to make a good game on the scale of DAO is time, not a deadline to increase profits when in the end all it does it piss on the franchise's face and in the same turn humiliating BioWare.

I do feel that DA2 has been rushed, it shows, a lot, it's sad, and it has pretty much nothing to do with (so far anyway) anything I've done in my DAO game, nor the story in general, and because I'm a fan of DAO and its rich lore and for what happened with DA2 I'd like to say this as my conclusion, EA, you guys suck. »

 

[Wardawg1001]

Zenoth, with all due respect to the effort you put into that post... who gives a fuck? It doesnt matter if it was BioWare or EA who forced it to be rushed out. The game was trash, and no they dont get a free pass because they had a limited timeline or budget. They took what could have been an amazing new original franchise and flushed it down the toilet, and whether its because their EA overlords wanted it to happen, or its because BioWare got greedy and wanted to make a quick buck off it and misjudged how people would react, it really doesnt matter - BioWare fucked up, and they deserve the crap being flung their way for this monstrosity. Someone at BioWare either didn't have the balls or didn't have the intelligence to convince EA that what they were doing was a mistake, and that can't be blamed on anyone but them.

 

[Borealis7]

not to contridict my OP, but as far as i care, they can continue using the original DA:O engine and churn out new games as long they have a good story and likeable characters, plus a few changes to bring new skills/spells.

sidenote: Y U NO REMAKE BG2 WITH DAO ENGINE??

for instance, they can make a game that REALLY focuses on companion relationships. i remember in BG2 Anomen would disappear from the game if you don't do what he wants (go rescue his sister whatever she died anyway in all my playthroughs with him lol).
give us more stuff like that.

 

[tedrodai]

Someone at BioWare either didn't have the balls or didn't have the intelligence to convince EA that what they were doing was a mistake, and that can't be blamed on anyone but them.

Well...yeah blame can definitely be placed elsewhere. You've read Dilbert right? The boss and CEO are overblown characters, sure, but they wouldn't be so funny if they didn't have some ring of truth. Sometimes orders are handed down, and whether you try to talk some sense or not, you're gonna end up following those orders.

But even with that said...I'm with you. Who cares about the blame? They put out a crappy product, so they're gonna be criticized harshly. It's up to them to correct those mistakes or fall into obscurity like just about every other once-great EA-owned developer.

 

[DeathReborn]

A big part of the reason it's widely disliked is the dubious name. People who played Origins saw Dragon Age 2 as a sequel only to find out that it's much worse, completely different & re-uses the same caves about as often as people hate on that squirt Bieber.

I get the feeling they deliberately chose the DA2 name to artificially increasing sales instead of calling it something more appropriate to it's content; Dragon Age: Recycling Garbage.

The only things i've seen them try to do to gain back some trust from gamers is give some people a free copy of DA2 (ages ago) which isn't exactly a good idea now is it.

 

[tedrodai]

The only things i've seen them try to do to gain back some trust from gamers is give some people a free copy of DA2 (ages ago) which isn't exactly a good idea now is it.

This made me laugh . Good luck to them with their future releases.

 

[QuantumPion]

A big part of the reason it's widely disliked is the dubious name. People who played Origins saw Dragon Age 2 as a sequel only to find out that it's much worse, completely different & re-uses the same caves about as often as people hate on that squirt Bieber.

I get the feeling they deliberately chose the DA2 name to artificially increasing sales instead of calling it something more appropriate to it's content; Dragon Age: Recycling Garbage.

The only things i've seen them try to do to gain back some trust from gamers is give some people a free copy of DA2 (ages ago) which isn't exactly a good idea now is it.

See this is the attitude I don't get. I think DA:O was highly overrated (and DA2 slightly underrated). DA2 was not garbage, it was mediocre. So was DA:O.

While DA2 had the ridiculously reused levels, in DA:O you had nearly the same problem: cookie cutter linear "roller coaster" levels, and frequent revisiting to the same areas.

DA2 is derided for the ninja ceiling-rappelling enemy waves, but the combat in DA:O was pretty lame in its own way. Every single battle was exactly the same, consisting of a half dozen warriors, a few archers off to the site, and sometimes 1 mage which you could insta-kill with a low level mage spell. And if you were a mage, the game was trivially easy even on nightmare. At least DA:2 added some interesting interactiveness to boss fights ala WoW and was pretty challenging on hard.

As for the story, I thought DA:O had a terrible story really. There's a big evil monster you have to stop, but it has no personality or agenda, it's just an animal basically. And the only thing in your way is the general guy whose motivations are conflicting and make no sense. DA:O was just a series of side quests on the way to killing the big monster at the end. DA:2 had some semblance of moral ambiguity and interesting choices in the plot.

I totally don't get the people that think DA:O was super awesome but DA2 "ruined the franchise". The only difference in my opinion is that expectations were high for DA:O due to the long development time, and were low for DA2 due to the short development time and consolization.

 

[thespyder]

...snip(et all) snip... »

With the greatest of respect, the fact that Bioware did the job in 1/3rd the time is truly amazing. however it doesn't excuse the fact that the job should never have been initiated (with the timeframe) to begin with.

And not all of the design choices were as a result of timing. The Wave harmonic theory of combat was designed, not with time and coding in mind, but with consolization. Same can be said for the "New" skills tree.

bottom line is, EA may have mandated a given timeline, that's true. But Bioware had a choice to take the contract or not. And they have enough of a reputation in the industry that they should have (IMHO) stood up and said "We won't sacrifice what is necessary to meet your deadline". The cost to their reputation has turned out to be more than any profits that they turned. A lesser house, i can see bending over and taking it. But I expected more from Bioware.

 

[darkewaffle]

bottom line is, EA may have mandated a given timeline, that's true. But Bioware had a choice to take the contract or not. And they have enough of a reputation in the industry that they should have (IMHO) stood up and said "We won't sacrifice what is necessary to meet your deadline". The cost to their reputation has turned out to be more than any profits that they turned. A lesser house, i can see bending over and taking it. But I expected more from Bioware.

This is completely how the real world works.

 

[RPD]

It gets hate because it's not anything like the first game. If they called it something else and didn't re-use every area 5000 times it would be a decent game in it's own right.

However they didn't and they did.

 

[Arg Clin]

not to contridict my OP, but as far as i care, they can continue using the original DA:O engine and churn out new games as long they have a good story and likeable characters, plus a few changes to bring new skills/spells.

sidenote: Y U NO REMAKE BG2 WITH DAO ENGINE??

for instance, they can make a game that REALLY focuses on companion relationships. i remember in BG2 Anomen would disappear from the game if you don't do what he wants (go rescue his sister whatever she died anyway in all my playthroughs with him lol).
give us more stuff like that.

I agree more or less. The original DA:O engine could just have been given an overhaul - it's not like it was completely obsolete.

Also I think deep companion relationships were one of the key points that made DA:O so great.

Come to think of it - it's also what makes ME great. This is what Bioware is good at - I think it was a big mistake to make companion realtionships as shallow as in DA2.

 

[Joemonkey]

I played DA:O on PC and have DA:2 from gamefly in my PS3. I played it for about an hour, and it's exactly what I expected on the console. However, reading that all the game takes place in the same city? I don't get to go explore? meh maybe i'll just ship it back to gamefly w/o finishing it...

 

[aka1nas]

Frankly, I found DA:O to be completely forgettable and bland and had no desire to ever pick it up again after the first playthrough. Other than the origin story and endgame, everything else felt like boring filler. (Disclaimer, I never got around to Awakening or many of the later DLCs)

DA2 at least had an interesting plot throughout IMO where character choices throughout the story had some later personal impact on the character.

 

[Zenoth]

With the greatest of respect, the fact that Bioware did the job in 1/3rd the time is truly amazing. however it doesn't excuse the fact that the job should never have been initiated (with the timeframe) to begin with.

And not all of the design choices were as a result of timing. The Wave harmonic theory of combat was designed, not with time and coding in mind, but with consolization. Same can be said for the "New" skills tree.

bottom line is, EA may have mandated a given timeline, that's true. But Bioware had a choice to take the contract or not. And they have enough of a reputation in the industry that they should have (IMHO) stood up and said "We won't sacrifice what is necessary to meet your deadline". The cost to their reputation has turned out to be more than any profits that they turned. A lesser house, i can see bending over and taking it. But I expected more from Bioware.

In the best of worlds, I would agree. But with respect, I disagree. It is extremely naive to think that BioWare could simply stand their ground and turn their back on EA's deadline. And the post I copy-pasted isn't exactly defending the poor quality of DA2 (I know, and I agree about DA2's overall quality of production being... lacking), since I posted that (four months ago) I had the time to complete the game, and the GOOD, yes, the good DLC they recently made, namely Legacy which IS worth it. To this day I still don't particularly like the game overall, although I DO really like the DLC, just to repeat myself.

I merely posted it here in hope that some people would understand that despite some bad game-play mechanics designed by BioWare, regardless of the short amount of time that they disposed of to work on DA2, that the vast majority of the game's failure can only be attributed to that ridiculous year or so that they had to work on it. And that despite the short amount of time they disposed of they still managed to make what I believe is a solid game if you do take in consideration that amount of time, to work on a game that is supposed to be linked to arguably perhaps the very best game in their repertoire.

The bottom line is that some people do "give a fuck" like me (this is mostly addressed to Wardawg1001's reply) and I really tried to objectively understand why oh why was a game developed by the almighty BioWare ended up like that, so my four months-old post contains the conclusions I came up with. And, what you said, Wardawg1001, concerning BioWare not "having the balls" to tell EA that their demands were ridiculous is as I told to thespyder something very naive to believe. What you ("you" being addressed to anyone thinking that BioWare could simply do that, to go "against" EA's demands) have to realize is that some individuals at BioWare did speak out their minds about that deadline (AFTER the game was released, however, and with good reasons), but they tempered their words wisely and didn't say too much.

I will go as far as saying that it is risky (for their jobs) to speak out loud against EA when they happen to be your boss. But that's probably another subject better fit for another thread. I'll just stop here.

 

[Dumac]

Frankly, I found DA:O to be completely forgettable and bland and had no desire to ever pick it up again after the first playthrough. Other than the origin story and endgame, everything else felt like boring filler. (Disclaimer, I never got around to Awakening or many of the later DLCs)

DA2 at least had an interesting plot throughout IMO where character choices throughout the story had some later personal impact on the character.

Oh god, are you kidding me?

Spoiler

I think you have bad taste

 

[Mem]

Frankly, I found DA:O to be completely forgettable and bland and had no desire to ever pick it up again after the first playthrough. Other than the origin story and endgame, everything else felt like boring filler. (Disclaimer, I never got around to Awakening or many of the later DLCs)

DA2 at least had an interesting plot throughout IMO where character choices throughout the story had some later personal impact on the character.

DOA is 100x better then DA2 which should of been named Copy and Paste AGE,bad points were too many ie dumbed down ,copy and paste of so many areas,very limited towns ie only one,weak storyline,limited characters customization(its suppose to be a RPG).,short playing time compared to DOA,lets not forget all those web reviews of 9/10 lol .....I have to ask how much EA payed those sites and do those sites actually know what a good game is?.....I could go on but DA2 is best forgotten IMHO.

EA you want to know what a good RPG is?..then look at "The Witcher 2 "which is my RPG game of the year and not DA2 crap.

 

[darkewaffle]

lol I love the "You liked DA2? What are you, an idiot?" responses. God forbid someone like something different, I loved DAO to death but I can also see how it would be way too slow and repetitive for some people. DA2 appeals to a different kind of player.

 

[Mem]

lol I love the "You liked DA2? What are you, an idiot?" responses. God forbid someone like something different, I loved DAO to death but I can also see how it would be way too slow and repetitive for some people. DA2 appeals to a different kind of player.

I think you are missing the point,fact is he asked why all the hate for DA2 in his title thread,most players here have given their honest and valid reasons why,the sales of DA2 is a lot less then DAO so that must tell you something, sure you can like a rotten apple if you like, but that does not make it taste any better for the others :biggrin: .


I'll say if he liked it then good for him,however many including myself feel it should of been a lot better , it was disappointing given Bioware's so called reputation,end of the day we pay for their games and expect a certain standard in quality.

 

[SpeedZealot369]

I played the demo for about 2 mins before I decided to uninstall and never play it again. On the other hand the first DA was one of the best games I've ever played.

Why? Immediately upon playing DA2, I felt that something was very wrong and just different, in a bad way. That was enough for me to just put it aside and move on. I don't have endless hours to spend on games, I go with my gut with these things. There are plenty games out there that are incredible and much more worthy of my time.

 

[StinkyPinky]

It's not a bad game and certainly has its good moments, but it just feels like a rushed copy and paste game. One city that's not even that big. Unbelievable amount of reused maps, and a total lack of varied enemies. Also the story is jarring and the spawning enemies ridiculous.

Certainly not in the usual Bioware A+ type of game. It feels like a C...just a passing grade and nothing else.

 

[thespyder]

The bottom line is that some people do "give a fuck" like me (this is mostly addressed to Wardawg1001's reply) and I really tried to objectively understand why oh why was a game developed by the almighty BioWare ended up like that, so my four months-old post contains the conclusions I came up with. And, what you said, Wardawg1001, concerning BioWare not "having the balls" to tell EA that their demands were ridiculous is as I told to thespyder something very naive to believe. What you ("you" being addressed to anyone thinking that BioWare could simply do that, to go "against" EA's demands) have to realize is that some individuals at BioWare did speak out their minds about that deadline (AFTER the game was released, however, and with good reasons), but they tempered their words wisely and didn't say too much.

In truth, a lot of what Bioware has put out lately has been subject to some "Questionable" design decisions. The Mass Effect series went from "Good" CRPG to "Fair" ARPG with ME2. Some of the same/similar design choices were made in the change. And I fear that even more steps will be made in that direction for ME3. This despite the negative reception of the DA2. I am not sure if it is Bioware or EA that are causing this, though I have my own suspicions on this matter. Still, corporate ownership doesn't mean Tyrannical dictatorship no matter how many "bosses" like to think so. There is always a choice. Even if that choice is to take your skills and go elsewhere.

As far as Bioware "Having the balls", I know that they are wholly Owned by EA (a fact I hadn't been aware of when I made my former post). And that in the corporate world, if a decision is made, it's final. And maybe they didn't have a "Real" choice. But Bioware has historically had some decent cred in the RPG world. And I would hope that would amount to some leverage. The point where a corporation stops listening to those who work for and advise their company that actually KNOW what works and what doesn't is the point where profit margins start dropping drastically. Bioware clearly (used to) know how to make good RPGs. So either something internal has changed or they are getting unreasonable (and hopefully unprofitable) pressure from some quarter (i.e. EA). Without significant change, I don't see them remaining the house that they built their reputation on.

Maybe it is about time the ones who know how to make good games jump ship and form another new company. It has happened before in the gaming world and the reputation of names will bring the gamers.

 

[Dumac]

lol I love the "You liked eating feces? What are you, an idiot?" responses. God forbid someone like something different, I loved normal food to death but I can also see how it would be way too bland for some people. Eating feces appeals to a different kind of taste palette.

..

 

[rchiu]

See this is the attitude I don't get. I think DA:O was highly overrated (and DA2 slightly underrated). DA2 was not garbage, it was mediocre. So was DA:O.

While DA2 had the ridiculously reused levels, in DA:O you had nearly the same problem: cookie cutter linear "roller coaster" levels, and frequent revisiting to the same areas.

DA2 is derided for the ninja ceiling-rappelling enemy waves, but the combat in DA:O was pretty lame in its own way. Every single battle was exactly the same, consisting of a half dozen warriors, a few archers off to the site, and sometimes 1 mage which you could insta-kill with a low level mage spell. And if you were a mage, the game was trivially easy even on nightmare. At least DA:2 added some interesting interactiveness to boss fights ala WoW and was pretty challenging on hard.

As for the story, I thought DA:O had a terrible story really. There's a big evil monster you have to stop, but it has no personality or agenda, it's just an animal basically. And the only thing in your way is the general guy whose motivations are conflicting and make no sense. DA:O was just a series of side quests on the way to killing the big monster at the end. DA:2 had some semblance of moral ambiguity and interesting choices in the plot.

I totally don't get the people that think DA:O was super awesome but DA2 "ruined the franchise". The only difference in my opinion is that expectations were high for DA:O due to the long development time, and were low for DA2 due to the short development time and consolization.

Well you are entitled to your opinion obviously. But the rest of us see that DAO is not just killing the big evil monster. It's about uniting different races/organizations, each has it's own unique struggle, could be political/ideal....and we as a player has the choice to make real impact on how each struggle turned out. The impact can be as big a the choice of ruler for the entire dwarf nation, or whether an entire clan of elf are eliminated....

You are right about the end goal of killing one big bad monster. But there has never been an RPG with such epic scale on the process to get to that end goal.