I don't see how a question on a standardized test (SAT,GMAT,GRE,etc) could be racially biased

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
because blacks are less racist, they have trouble telling the difference between white and black bubbles i guess


but seriously, that was bs, and obama choosing a justice that would condone such bs lowers my opinion of him significantly. i'm sick and tired of the media parroting obamas talking point about judicial empathy. does he remember a court filled with men ..white men gave women reproductive rights and blacks their rights as well.

Give it a rest. Everytime someone brings that up, they lose the argument. Diversity is good.

Diversity can be good, sure. But throwing out the results of tests because the crowd that got the highest scores wasn't "diverse" enough is just plain racism.

With all this talk about racism and this fire test, I still haven't seen one shred of evidence that suggests that the test itself was racist. Which questions were racially biased?

Or are they just making the assumption that since blacks didn't score as high as the whites or Hispanics that the test itself must be racist?

If there's a trend, you just might want to consider that it is more than just Intelligence at work. Especially if these trends are unique to certain geographic locations.

So, God's at work at keeping the black man down now too? :shocked:

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Craig234
and I understand that that will mean some special efforts for a while to help undo some of those past effects still hurting people now, and that's ok to get us to the point of the 'color blind society' we all want.

This is where you will lose most people. I hasn't alive when slavery existed in the US. My ancestors didn't even live in this country when slavery existed. Why should the white people of today have to be disadvantaged by a system which is designed to lessen the amount of whites in job positions? I agree that the racism must end, but leveling that out with reverse racism is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Supreme Court of the United States agrees.

Two wrongs won't make anything better, and will just make white's pissed off at blacks furthering racism.

Craig234, are you basically saying that we shouldn't learn from our mistakes made regarding slaves, racism, and inequality? Are there issues of racism currently? Without a doubt, but if a person (regardless of race) has the dedication, drive, and enough intelligence (which all races have) there is no reason why a person is not able to do something. A black kid in the ghetto doesn't have to become a pimp/drug dealer/etc, and can go on to become a very successful person. A white girl in the ghetto doesn't have to become a crack whore/welfare mother, and can go on to be very successful. This can be said about any race in a disadvantaged position if they so choose to put their mind to it (in the US at least).

The only way to get to the "color blind society we all want", is to stop talking about racism and such. Obviously that will never happen though.

 

[SP33Demon]

Mandatory Reading on this subject.

Empirically explains why Asians do better than all other groups on tests, and why blacks usually score lower than Asians and whites.

 

[numark]

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
I hate it when I see bullshit like this and the New Haven firefighters' promotion exam fiasco. Thankfully the Supreme Court affirmed that New Haven's decision was not wrong.

The Supreme Court (barely) made the right decision.

Actually, the Supreme Court overturned New Haven's decision, technically. The promotion board originally threw out the test results, and the Supreme Court decided that they were wrong in doing it on the basis of fear of litigation. Note that this didn't actually decide whether the test was, in fact, racially biased, but instead they said that you can't discard the test results solely for the reason that you're scared of being sued. There's enough ambiguity there to imply that the town could legally have investigated the questions, they just can't discard the test wholesale over a fear of a lawsuit.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Dumac

Just because of their socioeconomic class may be similar doesn't mean that they received the same education or that their community resources are similar.

Since Asians score higher than whites on these tests, do you conclude that Asians are inherently smarter than whites?

The thing is that SAT scores and IQ correlates very strongly. And IQ tests don't test education, they test raw ability. So even on tests that measure your raw ability and not your education, the same groups that scored highest on the SAT score highest on the IQ tests.

And yes, I would conclude that Asians have a higher average IQ than whites.

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Dumac

Just because of their socioeconomic class may be similar doesn't mean that they received the same education or that their community resources are similar.

Since Asians score higher than whites on these tests, do you conclude that Asians are inherently smarter than whites?

The thing is that SAT scores and IQ correlates very strongly. And IQ tests don't test education, they test raw ability. So even on tests that measure your raw ability and not your education, the same groups that scored highest on the SAT score highest on the IQ tests.

And yes, I would conclude that Asians have a higher average IQ than whites.

Wrong. An IQ test isn't a magic tool to judge a person's intelligence, despite many people thinking it is. Environmental factors play into scoring.

Edit: At least by your conclusions, I belong to a mentally superior demographic

Unless of course you are asian as well. Then you are just self serving...

But IIRC you are white.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Dumac

Just because of their socioeconomic class may be similar doesn't mean that they received the same education or that their community resources are similar.

Since Asians score higher than whites on these tests, do you conclude that Asians are inherently smarter than whites?

The thing is that SAT scores and IQ correlates very strongly. And IQ tests don't test education, they test raw ability. So even on tests that measure your raw ability and not your education, the same groups that scored highest on the SAT score highest on the IQ tests.

And yes, I would conclude that Asians have a higher average IQ than whites.

Wrong. An IQ test isn't a magic tool to judge a person's intelligence, despite many people thinking it is. Environmental factors play into scoring.

Edit: At least by your conclusions, I belong to a mentally superior demographic

Unless of course you are asian as well. Then you are just self serving...

But IIRC you are white.

I think that people who don't want to believe that there are differences between races will try to find any excuse out there to justify that belief. They'll believe absolutely anything other than that which they view as politically incorrect or offensive (both of which are emotional concepts and not logical ones). Usually there is no consistency to those excuses which just indicates that they're grasping at straws. On the other hand, it's fairly easy to see that the scores do follow race because it's so straightforward. Anywhere in the world you go the statistics say the same thing.

When talking about test performance in the US, those trying to be politically correct will say that blacks score lower because of slavery and blacks' history in the US. Yet when the fact is brought up that blacks score lower than whites even in countries in Africa, they find another set of excuses. Yet the straightforward reasoning that the scores follow race holds true. If we were discussing any subject other than people, simple logic and reason would be implemented and there would be no disagreement. But let it be known that the subject is race of people and an emotional aspect is added, one which shouldn't play any part but one that skews the opinions of those unable to think rationally.

If you look at an IQ test there isn't much need for learned information. There will be some, but it's so basic that if the person being tested didn't know what a "dog" is or what a "cat" is I don't know what their problem is. Growing up, the Asian kids in my town often barely spoke English but their intelligence was apparent. Even tasks that didn't involve math or reading would take on a certain structure that was noticeable absent from those with lower intelligence. Not surprisingly, the people who everyone knew were intelligent turned out to score the highest on the IQ tests, and the converse was true also.

 

[nanette1985]

Fascinating discussion, considering that there's really no way to tell someone's race here on ATOT.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Dumac

Just because of their socioeconomic class may be similar doesn't mean that they received the same education or that their community resources are similar.

Since Asians score higher than whites on these tests, do you conclude that Asians are inherently smarter than whites?

The thing is that SAT scores and IQ correlates very strongly. And IQ tests don't test education, they test raw ability. So even on tests that measure your raw ability and not your education, the same groups that scored highest on the SAT score highest on the IQ tests.

And yes, I would conclude that Asians have a higher average IQ than whites.

Wrong. An IQ test isn't a magic tool to judge a person's intelligence, despite many people thinking it is. Environmental factors play into scoring.

Edit: At least by your conclusions, I belong to a mentally superior demographic

Unless of course you are asian as well. Then you are just self serving...

But IIRC you are white.

I think that people who don't want to believe that there are differences between races will try to find any excuse out there to justify that belief. They'll believe absolutely anything other than that which they view as politically incorrect or offensive (both of which are emotional concepts and not logical ones). Usually there is no consistency to those excuses which just indicates that they're grasping at straws. On the other hand, it's fairly easy to see that the scores do follow race because it's so straightforward. Anywhere in the world you go the statistics say the same thing.

When talking about test performance in the US, those trying to be politically correct will say that blacks score lower because of slavery and blacks' history in the US. Yet when the fact is brought up that blacks score lower than whites even in countries in Africa, they find another set of excuses. Yet the straightforward reasoning that the scores follow race holds true. If we were discussing any subject other than people, simple logic and reason would be implemented and there would be no disagreement. But let it be known that the subject is race of people and an emotional aspect is added, one which shouldn't play any part but one that skews the opinions of those unable to think rationally.

If you look at an IQ test there isn't much need for learned information. There will be some, but it's so basic that if the person being tested didn't know what a "dog" is or what a "cat" is I don't know what their problem is. Growing up, the Asian kids in my town often barely spoke English but their intelligence was apparent. Even tasks that didn't involve math or reading would take on a certain structure that was noticeable absent from those with lower intelligence. Not surprisingly, the people who everyone knew were intelligent turned out to score the highest on the IQ tests, and the converse was true also.

Is this seriously true? I mean I honestly thought it was all socioeconomic though. How well off are whites in Africa? My guess is decently well off.

Originally posted by: princess ida
Fascinating discussion, considering that there's really no way to tell someone's race here on ATOT.

Black man avatar?

 

[rocadelpunk]

i'm not reading trhough this thread atm, but I imagine many people need to read savage inequalities before taking their one experience/opinion as proof that it must/can work for everybody in similar circumstances.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Dumac

Just because of their socioeconomic class may be similar doesn't mean that they received the same education or that their community resources are similar.

Since Asians score higher than whites on these tests, do you conclude that Asians are inherently smarter than whites?

The thing is that SAT scores and IQ correlates very strongly. And IQ tests don't test education, they test raw ability. So even on tests that measure your raw ability and not your education, the same groups that scored highest on the SAT score highest on the IQ tests.

And yes, I would conclude that Asians have a higher average IQ than whites.

Wrong. An IQ test isn't a magic tool to judge a person's intelligence, despite many people thinking it is. Environmental factors play into scoring.

Edit: At least by your conclusions, I belong to a mentally superior demographic

Unless of course you are asian as well. Then you are just self serving...

But IIRC you are white.

I think that people who don't want to believe that there are differences between races will try to find any excuse out there to justify that belief. They'll believe absolutely anything other than that which they view as politically incorrect or offensive (both of which are emotional concepts and not logical ones). Usually there is no consistency to those excuses which just indicates that they're grasping at straws. On the other hand, it's fairly easy to see that the scores do follow race because it's so straightforward. Anywhere in the world you go the statistics say the same thing.

When talking about test performance in the US, those trying to be politically correct will say that blacks score lower because of slavery and blacks' history in the US. Yet when the fact is brought up that blacks score lower than whites even in countries in Africa, they find another set of excuses. Yet the straightforward reasoning that the scores follow race holds true. If we were discussing any subject other than people, simple logic and reason would be implemented and there would be no disagreement. But let it be known that the subject is race of people and an emotional aspect is added, one which shouldn't play any part but one that skews the opinions of those unable to think rationally.

If you look at an IQ test there isn't much need for learned information. There will be some, but it's so basic that if the person being tested didn't know what a "dog" is or what a "cat" is I don't know what their problem is. Growing up, the Asian kids in my town often barely spoke English but their intelligence was apparent. Even tasks that didn't involve math or reading would take on a certain structure that was noticeable absent from those with lower intelligence. Not surprisingly, the people who everyone knew were intelligent turned out to score the highest on the IQ tests, and the converse was true also.

Is this seriously true? I mean I honestly thought it was all socioeconomic though. How well off are whites in Africa? My guess is decently well off.

I think what confuses people is that since those with higher IQs will tend to make more money than those with lower IQs, they often put the cart before the horse, they don't understand what comes first, the intelligence or wealth.

We already know that wealth correlates with IQ. But saying that those with higher IQs tend to make more money than those with lower IQs sounds elitist, and some people (who allow emotion to override logic) find that offensive. Therefore, in order to make that simple fact more palatable, they fool themselves into believing that those with less money somehow score lower on IQ tests due to various reasons other than their intelligence.

But higher IQ doesn't guarantee wealth, and when you take samples from poor whites and Asians you'll find that they still score higher on IQ tests and SATs than wealthy blacks or hispanics.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Dumac

Just because of their socioeconomic class may be similar doesn't mean that they received the same education or that their community resources are similar.

Since Asians score higher than whites on these tests, do you conclude that Asians are inherently smarter than whites?

The thing is that SAT scores and IQ correlates very strongly. And IQ tests don't test education, they test raw ability. So even on tests that measure your raw ability and not your education, the same groups that scored highest on the SAT score highest on the IQ tests.

And yes, I would conclude that Asians have a higher average IQ than whites.

Wrong. An IQ test isn't a magic tool to judge a person's intelligence, despite many people thinking it is. Environmental factors play into scoring.

Edit: At least by your conclusions, I belong to a mentally superior demographic

Unless of course you are asian as well. Then you are just self serving...

But IIRC you are white.

I think that people who don't want to believe that there are differences between races will try to find any excuse out there to justify that belief. They'll believe absolutely anything other than that which they view as politically incorrect or offensive (both of which are emotional concepts and not logical ones). Usually there is no consistency to those excuses which just indicates that they're grasping at straws. On the other hand, it's fairly easy to see that the scores do follow race because it's so straightforward. Anywhere in the world you go the statistics say the same thing.

When talking about test performance in the US, those trying to be politically correct will say that blacks score lower because of slavery and blacks' history in the US. Yet when the fact is brought up that blacks score lower than whites even in countries in Africa, they find another set of excuses. Yet the straightforward reasoning that the scores follow race holds true. If we were discussing any subject other than people, simple logic and reason would be implemented and there would be no disagreement. But let it be known that the subject is race of people and an emotional aspect is added, one which shouldn't play any part but one that skews the opinions of those unable to think rationally.

If you look at an IQ test there isn't much need for learned information. There will be some, but it's so basic that if the person being tested didn't know what a "dog" is or what a "cat" is I don't know what their problem is. Growing up, the Asian kids in my town often barely spoke English but their intelligence was apparent. Even tasks that didn't involve math or reading would take on a certain structure that was noticeable absent from those with lower intelligence. Not surprisingly, the people who everyone knew were intelligent turned out to score the highest on the IQ tests, and the converse was true also.

Is this seriously true? I mean I honestly thought it was all socioeconomic though. How well off are whites in Africa? My guess is decently well off.

I think what confuses people is that those with higher IQs will tend to make more money than those with lower IQs. It's like putting the cart before the horse, they don't understand what comes first.

We already know that wealth correlates with IQ. But saying that those with higher IQs tend to make more money than those with lower IQs sounds elitist, and some people (who allow emotion to override logic) find that offensive. Therefore, in order to make that simple fact more palatable, they fool themselves into believing that those with less money somehow score lower on IQ tests due to various reasons.

But higher IQ doesn't guarantee wealth, and when you take samples from poor whites and Asians you'll find that they still score higher on IQ tests and SATs than wealthy blacks or hispanics.

I'm wondering from where exactly you're pulling this information. As I've said before, there are differences in IQ scores on contemporary intelligence tests between racial groups (which, again, largely can depend on how you define your racial groups). However, as with most other psychological variables, there is a much greater degree of intra-group variability than there is inter-group variability.

The question isn't whether whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, etc. differ in IQ (although that question is still debated, don't get me wrong)...it's why. And there is NO clear consensus on that issue as of yet.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: rocadelpunk
i'm not reading trhough this thread atm, but I imagine many people need to read savage inequalities before taking their one experience/opinion as proof that it must/can work for everybody in similar circumstances.

Savage Inequalities was written by an civil rights activist. It's not meant to be truly scientific; it's only scientific enough to promote his (liberal) agenda.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Whisper

I'm wondering from where exactly you're pulling this information. As I've said before, there are differences in IQ scores on contemporary intelligence tests between racial groups (which, again, largely can depend on how you define your racial groups). However, as with most other psychological variables, there is a much greater degree of intra-group variability than there is inter-group variability.

The question isn't whether whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, etc. differ in IQ (although that question is still debated, don't get me wrong)...it's why. And there is NO clear consensus on that issue as of yet.

There are many places I've read it, but I'll copy/paste one source:

link

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Whisper

I'm wondering from where exactly you're pulling this information. As I've said before, there are differences in IQ scores on contemporary intelligence tests between racial groups (which, again, largely can depend on how you define your racial groups). However, as with most other psychological variables, there is a much greater degree of intra-group variability than there is inter-group variability.

The question isn't whether whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, etc. differ in IQ (although that question is still debated, don't get me wrong)...it's why. And there is NO clear consensus on that issue as of yet.

There are many places I've read it, but I'll copy/paste one source:

link

Link doesn't appear to be working, and my meager search skills haven't yet been able to turn up anything similar to said link. However, a brief review of the site seems to indicate that the journal is not primarily of a scientific, peer-reviewed leaning, although I could be mistaken.

 

[rocadelpunk]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: rocadelpunk
i'm not reading trhough this thread atm, but I imagine many people need to read savage inequalities before taking their one experience/opinion as proof that it must/can work for everybody in similar circumstances.

Savage Inequalities was written by an civil rights activist. It's not meant to be truly scientific; it's only scientific enough to promote his (liberal) agenda.

fair enough, but that's at least a good place to start before going into functionalism/conflict theory etc.

OP was what's an eg of a biased question? To understand that would require knowing about other people's situations - how/why schools were created & funded, education theories, hidden curriculum...

Although Mugs pretty much summed it up in one post.

 

[Wreckem]

Racial bias or not, blacks by far have the lowest median and mean on the LSAT. Black males inparticular. Judging peer to peer(ie social class to social class). A well educated white male is more than likely to score higher on the LSAT than a well educated black male. Atleast based on the past decade or so of LSATs. Theres a reason why most law schools give a 5-10point boost to black people LSAT scores.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Wreckem
Racial bias or not, blacks by far have the lowest median and mean on the LSAT. Black males inparticular. Judging peer to peer(ie social class to social class). A well educated white male is more than likely to score higher on the LSAT than a well educated black male. Atleast based on the past decade or so of LSATs. Theres a reason why most law schools give a 5-10point boost to black people LSAT scores.

at the point where you're taking the LSAT though... why is there a difference? obviously *anyone* who gets to that point is sufficiently well-educated and focused, right?

i don't know the max score on the LSAT, so 5-10 points might be insignificant, but nonetheless...

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Whisper

I'm wondering from where exactly you're pulling this information. As I've said before, there are differences in IQ scores on contemporary intelligence tests between racial groups (which, again, largely can depend on how you define your racial groups). However, as with most other psychological variables, there is a much greater degree of intra-group variability than there is inter-group variability.

The question isn't whether whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, etc. differ in IQ (although that question is still debated, don't get me wrong)...it's why. And there is NO clear consensus on that issue as of yet.

There are many places I've read it, but I'll copy/paste one source:

link

Link doesn't appear to be working, and my meager search skills haven't yet been able to turn up anything similar to said link.

http://www.jbhe.com/features/4...e_admissions-test.html

It says the scores are from The College Board.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Whisper

I'm wondering from where exactly you're pulling this information. As I've said before, there are differences in IQ scores on contemporary intelligence tests between racial groups (which, again, largely can depend on how you define your racial groups). However, as with most other psychological variables, there is a much greater degree of intra-group variability than there is inter-group variability.

The question isn't whether whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, etc. differ in IQ (although that question is still debated, don't get me wrong)...it's why. And there is NO clear consensus on that issue as of yet.

There are many places I've read it, but I'll copy/paste one source:

link

Link doesn't appear to be working, and my meager search skills haven't yet been able to turn up anything similar to said link.

http://www.jbhe.com/features/4...e_admissions-test.html

It says the scores are from The College Board.

It doesn't say Blacks are dumber or whatever. What about that part where you said Blacks even in Africa do worse than Whites there? I mean at a certain point I have to notice you're making really bold statements and I question your sources. Yes, you've shown me where Blacks do worse and I can accept that, but to say that inherently they're just incapable doing well because their minds can't handle it as you are implying is something I cannot see here.

However I'm curious in the 700+ category how well Asians do.

"On the math SAT, only 0.16 percent of all black test takers scored 750 or above compared to 1.8 percent of white test takers."

Does that mean the other 90-some% is mostly Asian? Interesting huh?

 

[aigomorla]

standardized tests arent racially biased.. there socially biased.

simple fact, those with money can afford prep schools for standardized tests.

prep schools increase score output on said standardized test.

only people with money can goto such prep schools.

therefore its a socially biased test.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
standardized tests arent racially biased.. there socially biased.

simple fact, those with money can afford prep schools for standardized tests.

prep schools increase score output on said standardized test.

only people with money can goto such prep schools.

therefore its a socially biased test.

Everything in life is socially biased for better or for worse. Although it is taboo to discuss, we have defined social classes in this country, just like most others.

Nothing is going to change that.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

It doesn't say Blacks are dumber or whatever. What about that part where you said Blacks even in Africa do worse than Whites there? I mean at a certain point I have to notice you're making really bold statements and I question your sources. Yes, you've shown me where Blacks do worse and I can accept that, but to say that inherently they're just incapable doing well because their minds can't handle it as you are implying is something I cannot see here.

However I'm curious in the 700+ category how well Asians do.

"On the math SAT, only 0.16 percent of all black test takers scored 750 or above compared to 1.8 percent of white test takers."

Does that mean the other 90-some% is mostly Asian? Interesting huh?

No, it doesn't mean that the rest is Asian. That statement doesn't imply that at all. It's possible that .16 of blacks scored 750 or above compared to 1.8 percent of whites and 2 percent of Asians. It doesn't need to add up to 100 percent.