I don't understand the Jesus died for our sins thing.

[fuzzybabybunny]

I have this question pop up in my head from time to time but I always forget to ask it.

So, "Jesus died for our sins."

I don't see what the sacrifice is though. Let's just assume:

Jesus is the son of God.
There IS Heaven (paradise).
Jesus, when he passes from the mortal earth, goes to Heaven to be with his father.
Heaven, by all accounts, is better than the mortal earth.

Um, so except for the excruciating way in which he died, I'm not seeing a big sacrifice?

I hear people say that God sacrificed his only son. Well, no, he doesn't appear to have sacrificed anything, right? His son still exists. In fact, his son is now closer to him and in a much better place.

What am I missing here? I have to be missing a lot.

 

[TecHNooB]

this space for rent D:

 

[Nintendesert]

Yeah, I'm sure this is the forum for theological discussions.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

God killed an avatar of himself to save us from himself.

You don't understand because it just doesn't make any sense.

Actually, never-mind, you don't understand because you haven't found god yet. The holy spirit would make everything clear to you (and only you).

 

[AreaCode707]

The logic runs as such:

• God created humankind in perfect state, endowing them with free will because without free will there can be no love.
• Humankind chose to fuck it up, thereby introducing sin into the world and separating themselves from God.
• God, in his mercy, introduced a way to atone for sin through sacrifice (animal sacrifice, in this case.)
• This approach dictated a sort of 1:1 sin:animal ratio (because animals aren't all that awesome, I guess?)
• To instead substitute a once-and-for-all sacrifice something more mega and intense and awesome than animals was called for, so God totally perfect and sinless and not at all deserving of death, became incarnate
• And willingly died, undeserved. The act more than equaled out all the sins from ever, making it a simple matter of deciding to willingly accept that act on your behalf.
• Since you don't mess with perfection, death couldn't keep a good guy down. Three days, Cadbury eggs, yada yada and all that.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Being an atheist is so much easier.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

The logic runs as such:

• God created humankind in perfect state, endowing them with free will because without free will there can be no love.
• Humankind chose to fuck it up, thereby introducing sin into the world and separating themselves from God.
• God, in his mercy, introduced a way to atone for sin through sacrifice (animal sacrifice, in this case.)
• This approach dictated a sort of 1:1 sin:animal ratio (because animals aren't all that awesome, I guess?)
• To instead substitute a once-and-for-all sacrifice something more mega and intense and awesome than animals was called for, so God totally perfect and sinless and not at all deserving of death, became incarnate
• And willingly died, undeserved. The act more than equaled out all the sins from ever, making it a simple matter of deciding to willingly accept that act on your behalf.
• Since you don't mess with perfection, death couldn't keep a good guy down. Three days, Cadbury eggs, yada yada and all that.

Got it. Thanks! Many things of course make zero sense to me but at least now I know what the general logic flow is.

 

[sandorski]

Ya, it makes no sense at all. Humans don't require blood to Forgive, but a "superior" being does? Clearly this "Free Will" this "god" gave us is superior to what that "god" has.

Not just that, but making sacrifices to gods was as common as anything amongst all gods in ancient times. Supposedly(by Modern standards) all those other gods were fictions, yet the true "God" acts and demands the same things those fictions did. Coincidence?

The kicker is that this alleged "god" created all things, can do whatever it wants, loves us, and wants fellowship with us. Yet, it doesn't do anything to remedy any of the mess it created. It purposely and knowingly caused the very "sin" that separated Humanity from it in the first place.

It's a convoluted Myth that various people throughout time have added their twist on. The only way to make sense of it is to assume it makes sense in the first place. To look at it in any type of critical way reveals it to being nonsensical.

 

[Binarycow]

or you can just call the whole thing for what it is: PURE BULLSHIT.

Just love your neighbors, you cant love God without loving your neighbors. The rest is just bullshit fantasy at best.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Jesus's death wasn't "God's sacrifice." He was OUR sacrifice. God sent him to earth to die for OUR sins. It was a gift. The wages of sin is death. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Our blood debt has been paid in full, thanks to Jesus. We could not have paid our debt with our own blood. He died so that we might have life. Jesus sacrificed himself, you could say. Giving up your life is the ultimate sacrifice, whether you think it's big or not. "Greater love hath no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends."

If Jesus hadn't died, we'd all still be sacrificing animals to cover our sins at least. Fun.

 

[SlitheryDee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVvCe6xZvOk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[sandorski]

Jesus's death wasn't "God's sacrifice." He was OUR sacrifice. God sent him to earth to die for OUR sins. It was a gift. The wages of sin is death. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Our blood debt has been paid in full, thanks to Jesus. We could not have paid our debt with our own blood. He died so that we might have life. Jesus sacrificed himself, you could say. Giving up your life is the ultimate sacrifice, whether you think it's big or not. "Greater love hath no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends."

If Jesus hadn't died, we'd all still be sacrificing animals to cover our sins at least. Fun.

Not a word you wrote makes any sense what so ever.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Jesus's death wasn't "God's sacrifice." He was OUR sacrifice. God sent him to earth to die for OUR sins. It was a gift. The wages of sin is death. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Our blood debt has been paid in full, thanks to Jesus. We could not have paid our debt with our own blood. He died so that we might have life. Jesus sacrificed himself, you could say. Giving up your life is the ultimate sacrifice, whether you think it's big or not. "Greater love hath no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends."

If Jesus hadn't died, we'd all still be sacrificing animals to cover our sins at least. Fun.

So the merciful god who loves us demands blood, any blood, and won't forgive us for HIM making us fucked-up unless there's some carnage.

And people wonder why anyone with a brain laughs at that religion.

 

[Kadarin]

If Jesus hadn't died, we'd all still be sacrificing animals to cover our sins at least. Fun.

Is there anything in scripture that now specifically disallows sacrificing animals to cover sins? If we chose to do it, would it work?

 

[PottedMeat]

So the merciful god who loves us demands blood, any blood, and won't forgive us for HIM making us fucked-up unless there's some carnage.

Blood for the Blood God

but no skulls for the skull throne?

 

[shortylickens]

I swear FBB is the best troll here.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Jesus's death wasn't "God's sacrifice." He was OUR sacrifice. God sent him to earth to die for OUR sins. It was a gift. The wages of sin is death. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Our blood debt has been paid in full, thanks to Jesus. We could not have paid our debt with our own blood. He died so that we might have life. Jesus sacrificed himself, you could say. Giving up your life is the ultimate sacrifice, whether you think it's big or not. "Greater love hath no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends."

If Jesus hadn't died, we'd all still be sacrificing animals to cover our sins at least. Fun.

Huh? But he didn't die. He didn't give up anything. He continued to exist, and in a much better place no less, in heaven.

Right?

That's what I don't get. He KNOWS that by doing XYZ he will WITHOUT A DOUBT, (as certain as 2 + 2 = 4) end up some place AWESOME. So awesome that there are no words to fully describe it.

Where, then, is the sacrifice?

The only thing he gave up was a mortal existence of suffering. He didn't lay down his life.

I'm equating "life" to "existence," arguably the most valuable thing any of us have, and the uncertainty surrounding if we will continue to exist after we die. If the Bible is equating life to something less valuable, like a million dollar house, then, uh, OK.

So he gave up his million dollar house so others could be forgiven for their sins? But then he immediately upgraded to a 100 million dollar house, or whatever. In fact, there wasn't even any doubt that he *wouldn't* get the 100 million dollar house. Where is my analogy failing?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Is there anything in scripture that now specifically disallows sacrificing animals to cover sins? If we chose to do it, would it work?

How did sacrifice work? Were you not allowed to eat the animal afterwards? Did you have to leave it to rot?

So sacrifice to atone for sins = purposefully letting valuable resources go to waste?

 

[AreaCode707]

Is there anything in scripture that now specifically disallows sacrificing animals to cover sins? If we chose to do it, would it work?

The most applicable quote from the Christian scriptures is, "I come not to abolish the law but to fulfill it" (where "the law" refers to the Jewish law, including animal sacrifice.) So the general interpretation is that animal sacrifice, while not invalid, became unnecessary.

 

[Phoenix86]

The logic runs as such:

• God created humankind in perfect state, endowing them with free will because without free will there can be no love.
• Humankind chose to fuck it up, thereby introducing sin into the world and separating themselves from God.
• God, in his mercy, introduced a way to atone for sin through sacrifice (animal sacrifice, in this case.)
• This approach dictated a sort of 1:1 sin:animal ratio (because animals aren't all that awesome, I guess?)
• To instead substitute a once-and-for-all sacrifice something more mega and intense and awesome than animals was called for, so God totally perfect and sinless and not at all deserving of death, became incarnate
• And willingly died, undeserved. The act more than equaled out all the sins from ever, making it a simple matter of deciding to willingly accept that act on your behalf.
• Since you don't mess with perfection, death couldn't keep a good guy down. Three days, Cadbury eggs, yada yada and all that.

 

[AreaCode707]

How did sacrifice work? Were you not allowed to eat the animal afterwards? Did you have to leave it to rot?

So sacrifice to atone for sins = purposefully letting valuable resources go to waste?

Original directions were that some was burned "as an aroma pleasing to the Lord" (who apparently likes his bacon crispy) and other cuts were provided to the priests, kinda payment for services rendered.

 

[Markbnj]

It's always been my belief that, if there is a God as described in the bible, one of our human priorities should be to find him and kill him.

 

[Ruptga]

That's right, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. The price has already been paid, that is why you can do anything you want. Kick a dog, Jesus has it covered for you. Eat some unclean bacon, Jesus already bought it. Post gore in a thread for baby panda pics, it doesn't matter because Jesus was and is the ultimate sacrifice.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Original directions were that some was burned "as an aroma pleasing to the Lord" (who apparently likes his bacon crispy) and other cuts were provided to the priests, kinda payment for services rendered.

Gotcha. So it's basically taking a valuable resource that you would otherwise use for yourself, and giving it to god and to priests instead? It seems to me that priests would gain a lot (or at least a free meal) by pointing out to people how they were sinning, and then suggesting that a sacrifice would wipe it away.

I also read that later, priests would take cash payment to wipe away sins, presumably because by that time cash was more useful and valuable than animal meat.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

That's right, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. The price has already been paid, that is why you can do anything you want. Kick a dog, Jesus has it covered for you. Eat some unclean bacon, Jesus already bought it. Post gore in a thread for baby panda pics, it doesn't matter because Jesus was and is the ultimate sacrifice.

Wow, reading all this is truly fascinating. So this is how it is supposed to work. Interesting.

And sacrifice doesn't really mean giving up your existence. It simply means ending your time on the mortal plane and upgrading to an eternal, better plane of existence, essentially.