If someone winds up a toy robot and has it programmed to wander a very specific path, and the robot thinks it has free will, but the robot creator knows exactly the path it will walk - does the robot still have free will?
I'm still not really following. So what that he knows what we are going to do. From our perspective, we are making our own choices. We believe we are exercising our own free will. I just had a fleeting thought that kinda made me sorta get it but now it's gone. For example, my mom knows me well. She may know what I am going to do in a given situation but she doesn't control the choice I made. She didn't make me make the choice she just knew I would.
If someone winds up a toy robot and has it programmed to wander a very specific path, and the robot thinks it has free will, but the robot creator knows exactly the path it will walk - does the robot still have free will?
If someone winds up a toy robot and has it programmed to wander a very specific path, and the robot thinks it has free will, but the robot creator knows exactly the path it will walk - does the robot still have free will?
Random paths is more like it. Those can be programed too. Good luck figuring those out in advance.
I'm still not really following. So what that he knows what we are going to do. From our perspective, we are making our own choices. We believe we are exercising our own free will. I just had a fleeting thought that kinda made me sorta get it but now it's gone. For example, my mom knows me well. She may know what I am going to do in a given situation but she doesn't control the choice I made. She didn't make me make the choice she just knew I would.
Does the fact you can't fool God mean you have no free will?
If God knows you are going to post on ATOT again in a few minutes, do you have a choice not to do so?Does the fact you can't fool God mean you have no free will?
That would be called the "illusion of free will" not real actual free will.
If God knows you are going to post on ATOT again in a few minutes, do you have a choice not to do so?
It's always been my belief that, if there is a God as described in the bible, one of our human priorities should be to find him and kill him.
So God was pissed at humans for sin. So to save humans from God... he created himself sa a human... and killed himself, so that he could forgive humans?
Wouldn't it have been easier to just say "Alright guys, we kinda fucked up. Let's start over, be good this time"
Son, and I think the scenario is that his son gave him a hand job while he was passed out.He tried that already: remember Noah?
A few days after the water subsided, though, Noah got all shnockered and let his daughter gaze upon his pilly packer, thus negating all of God's good intentions in wiping out all the life on earth...
(I think the more accurate interpretation is that he got really drunk and boned his daughter by accident--all in the language. Or maybe it was his son, Ham? kinky)
Seriously, the Bible is fucking awesome. That scene is also one of the panels on the Sistine chapel.
1. God, by his very nature, cannot be in the presence of sin.If I just love God but am a terrible person, I'm all set because Jesus died for me
Son, and I think the scenario is that his son gave him a hand job while he was passed out.
9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
If God knows you are going to post on ATOT again in a few minutes, do you have a choice not to do so?
I'll think about it a little more, but I think that cleared it up. Thanks!
My personal theology as it relates to free will (as best I can articulate it) looks like this:
#1. God knows every single possible decision we could make.
#2. God has a specific plan for us that he wants us to follow (living a life centred around him, loving everyone, etc)
#3. If we choose not to follow, then the universe (as created by God, if you believe it) reacts accordingly.
He knows what we can do, he knows what we'll probably do, but he doesn't want to be the one that forces us into it.
I've read through the thread and there's a few points to clarify:
1. God, by his very nature, cannot be in the presence of sin.
2. Us people, by our sinful nature cannot be in the presence of God.
3. Jesus, as the physical representation of God, has access to the benefits of God (eternal life, sinlessness) and is human enough to interact with all manner of people (see: the gospels, where Jesus hangs out with people)
4. When he died via Crucifixion, he took on all our sin, and allowed us a glimmer of hope to actually receive the full benefits that Jesus did (relationship with God, forgiveness of sin, etc)
5. A necessary criteria to receive the fullness of these benefits is to believe in Jesus's sacrifice and love God wholly.
6. Loving God wholly includes things like loving your neighbours (even people you hate) as yourself and following God's wishes for us.
This is obviously my personal statement, and I welcome inquiries into it. I don't have all the answers (there was a time in my life where you couldn't identify me as Christian), but that's the journey I've accepted.
He should know what we will do.
Probably. But it doesn't make him any less sad when we do it.
I describe it like a (slightly omniscient) parent. Parents want something for us (good or bad, not part of the metaphor) and oftentimes can anticipate what we will do (drink, have bad relationships, get an arts degree, etc). When it happens, they're often sad for us and will try and help us back onto the right path. Over, and over and over again, as long as it takes. And when we make a decision to go with their plan, they're often super happy.
The difference? God is nowhere near flawed like many parents.
Not a perfect metaphor, but trying to conceptualize God as a parent, rather than a scary thing in the sky is helpful in understanding how Christians think. (Some of us, at least)
He tried that already: remember Noah?
A parent that lets his children murder each other without intervening. In other words a parent who isn't there. The type of parent that would leave their kid in the car with the windows rolled up while they shop at Walmart.
A parent that lets his children murder each other without intervening. In other words a parent who isn't there. The type of parent that would leave their kid in the car with the windows rolled up while they shop at Walmart.
This sums up my philosophy pretty well.IMO there was no way to reconcile the idea of God as an infallible, omnipotent, all knowing being with the world we live in and the concepts presented in the bible.
If God were all of those things then the entire universe works as nothing more than a set of dominoes God set in motion. Those that will sin are marked before they are born and the inevitable eternal punishment already decided. Like a kid playing with hot wheels and damning one car to fly off a cliff while the other gets away cleanly.
To me, if there is a God, he must be fallible, can't know exactly what will happen but is so much more powerful than us that he appears essentially omnipotent even if he isn't.
Even with this in place he still comes off as a self centered jerk that would rather let people suffer on earth and damn them to eternity than show us the truth. Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same god and yet shed how much blood and God can't be bothered to clarify the true set of expectations. This God is an absent parent at best and vindictive at worst.
The alternative to the self centered God is the one that doesn't care about dogma and ritual but only cares that people try to be as good as is possible and rewards those that are good no matter their beliefs. In which case there is no need to clarify as he only requires genuine good and doesn't care if you eat pork, print pictures of Mohammed or work on Sunday.